Amazon Hunt mod/rebuild

rob046

Pinball Nudger
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This table needed some bug fixes. In fact, the way the gameplay was on this table was pretty off, probably mostly because of the lack of a manual until just recently.
There was all sorts of issues with the targets as they were popping up all the time when they weren't supposed to. Then there was a bug when you hit 2 at the same time, including the center one.
All fixed.

The table needed some work. LTA made a few fixes, but I was interested in going further fixing the drops and maybe improving a few things.
So I asked if I could do a little mod work on it and he said fine.
With some people, it is that easy!

Anyhow, once again as I do with many allegedly "quick" projects I want to do, I have to keep going and going.
The table needed completely wiped out as it wasn't close to correct size.
After I did that, I just said screw it and started working in photoshop to get some better images and PF made.
Wasn't easy given the best PF shot I could find on the net was the one that was already in the table.
I had a pretty severe angled shot, but with some elbow grease and work, I thought this had more potential than the IPDB shot.
So I did my thing with it.
Table is completely resized and rebuilt, nothing leftover from the old table but part of the script and the backdrop (which I thought was pretty cool and pretty looking, so I didn't want to touch that).
I put to use many photoshop tools, corrected the angle, created a stripped PF, fixed the nasty glare on a big chunk of the table and plastics, made the PF look newer by patching up wear, filled in missing artwork (especially tough under the flippers as I had no idea and no reference with how to fill it in, but I managed to fill it in somehow to where people won't notice that are was filled in)....ect.
All PF, lights, and plastics are all from this one image. I did the bumper caps by hand as they are a bit different than the normal cap, and I needed a perfect round texture with those black rings that I could pull from a pic.
And the bumpers are reels, they are animated and light up hopefully just as the real ones do.

Then I was just going to make an improved regular VP table using VP objects. Then I noticed that the bumpers were hard to do well in VP and especially those damn triangular lane guides at the bottom are pretty much impossible to do correctly with VP objects.
Normally, I have other resources for tables, even if they aren't great, where I can pull of some parts and use them as decals, but I didn't even have that for this table as I had no good pics that were angled well enough or highres enough.

Thus, I was going to save this for a table that I had better resoruces for and was a little more committed to rather than a quick mod, but what the heck.
We now have our first baby hybrid!
That's right, this table uses models from FP as decals. I remade part of the table quickly in FP just to get dimensions, ratio, and models to render correctly. Then I got the view to somewhat match the VP table and started snapping screenshots.
Then I started putting my good old decal skills back to work.
Actually, most objects you see right now (I know I have more work to do) is NOT a VP object.
The rails, flippers, and drops obviously are (and of course the PF and parts of the plastics, as that stuff is going to render 1024x max no matter what anyhow). I could replace those but VP does well enough with simple rails and drop targets, there is no need to get too fancy. But who knows, maybe I will!
If you look closely around the somewhat hidden kickers, you can even see FP metal with real reflection textures I made with a post behind it, all from FP. Very small detail, but I love wasting time on that junk.

Still work to do. I've never liked how VP did standups, and again since I don't have good pics for AH to work with, those will be FP as well, even animated with the proper bulb fixtures and lighting behind them.
I'm working on those right now.

The lights are all done, layout is done, PF and plastics are done.
What's left?
I mentioned the upper target/bulb fixtures I'm working on.
I need to add decals for the upper plunger lane wire guide and the flipper wire guides. That shouldn't be too difficult.
Oh, and I need to add a whole bunch of those rollover triggers, which I actually have done but they aren't in this screen. I just need to make another frame for them, they will be animated.
So...the table is pretty much done and ready to go after that.
I do plan to replace the apron and get some cards on there (thanks to inkonc..Peter for recreating the cards off the images I was able to pull off the pic, they look 100x better).
This apron is OK, but I think I have something to make a better one.

Anyhow, I'm pretty happy with the results. I guess its not bad for a quick fixer-upper mod without any good resources, but finally all the work with sub par images is starting to pay off for me as I can do these types of things, HGT for FP was something that really helped me learn how to fix up images more than anything else and I couldn't be happier with how that worked out, considering. FP demands much bigger and cleaner images if you want to compete with those tables that do have great resources to use. You have to find a way to "git r' done".
Wonder how people will feel about a table that mixes FP and VP?
Well, it shouldn't matter. I just do whatever I can to make a good table. This isn't something I would call a masterpiece, its just a quick mod (like the many others I can't release, except this one I can!) that uses an interesting idea, although I definitely worked on more than I first intended to. Concept is old, just has a new twist!

I thank LTA for letting me have at it and get the drops working correctly (which was quite tricky, maybe because I'm not a coding genious, I am quite capable, but this table is unique with its drops and the way they operate, vpm didn't want to use the solenoids as they were apparently supposed to be used, but although rigged a bit everything is working and not buggy). Also thank him for his work on the table and nico and vpmx for their prior work.
They did a great job considering the lack of manual and images for the table.

I just gave it a 2006 overhaul despite any better images, but photoshop has also improved over the years! And thanks to the new info's, especially the insight from joke0, who has played the table, we got this thing playing accurately as well.
I also managed to find/figure out the 4 lightbox lights (HGTD, game over, tilt, and shoot again) that were missing from the prior version. Couldn't find lamp #'s for these in the manual, just a little trial and error found it all.

It still looks a little rough around the edges, but once I fill in the top, triggers, and lanes with reels and decals as well as get a better apron in there, I think it will make for a much better screen.
But for now...
 

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Looks very nice. Funny thing about that, I had mentioned that I had tried to get perfectly rounded rubbers while being angle independant. And it occured to me to use FP instead of learning a render program as well, and then redo it in photoshop. Just talking about Kurt reminded me of that today.

Hmm... :)

Hey, there is a use for FP after all

Well, better get busy before Black decides it's a bug and try's and fix it. :)
 
It does look very good and I did read all of your post, most interesting and thorough WIP post, doesn't exactly read as a 'quick' mod to me. :)

Well done Rob and all others involved as you mentioned, never played this one, though it does look like a nice early SS type machine and I like those best of all, so I'm looking forward to it.
 
This table is underrated.
I think people will definitely like it more or be more drawn to it now and hopefully for more reasons than a graphics update.

BTW, realize this screenshot isn't finished, I got a few more important elements to add, and I think the target area up top, if all goes as planned, will really improve that screeny.
And a better apron and the guide rails.
Then we are ready to roll!

But the discovery of the manual was important to this table which the previous authors did not have.
And I also got joke0 helping out as he is familiar with the table and can make sure the gameplay is solid.
The new graphics along with that stuff and the fixes (especially to the targets) should really make for a cool table.

I like the sounds as well. The art is good on this table. Definitely a well done Gottlieb.
This table was simply underrated in the states.
Did you guys know that there was actually 2 more encores of this table made?
Yup, there is Amazon Hunt II and III. But those were mostly sold in europe as that is where the orignal table was apparently most popular.
Just didn't catch on here. But people really liked it in europe. How many times do you see two sequels of the same table come out (in fact, there is multiple versions/reproductions of the first table), with the gameplay, art, and layout being the same (just some minor differences with the roms and some colors).
I'm thinking EBD went through a sequel or two without changing the layout/art, but thats about it.

So somebody really liked this table. Hopefully a good VPM recreation can bring back some of the attention it didn't get in the states back in the day.
 
Well, Amazon Hunt 2 is the same with slightly different art. Amazon Hunt 3 is a conversion kit for Bone Busters - different layout/hardware/etc.
 
If you're counting, Xenon has 3 versions with same layout, rules, sounds - different art.
Bally Star Trek has 4.
Harley Davidson has 4.
Mata Hari has 5.
Eight Ball Deluxe has 8.

There's more of course, but I'm outta time. :)
 
you count the red prototype of EBD des? Damn, any more for that, you will run out of fingers. :)
 
destruk said:
If you're counting, Xenon has 3 versions with same layout, rules, sounds - different art.
Bally Star Trek has 4.
Harley Davidson has 4.
Mata Hari has 5.
Eight Ball Deluxe has 8.

There's more of course, but I'm outta time. :)

Yeah, lots of tables go through production changes, but they aren't advertised or newly marketed.
Like EBD LE which was marketed as a whole new table.

All I'm really saying about AH is that, for some reason, it was popular in Europe and the name sold, hence the II and conversion kits.
The few people contacting me about this table or helping me with it are from europe and really liked this table, at least those who were able to play it, there really wasn't a ton of units sold, same as other gottliebs of that time, but apparently more of them ended up in europe than the US.
AH 1 even had a German version, with a quite different backglass.
In fact, that is the backglass used in this VPM table.
It had circle lights in the center of the backglass, thus this is why you see those circle lights in the lower corner.
They are the same that is on the German backglass, except they are in a row from left to right.
 
shiva said:
you count the red prototype of EBD des? Damn, any more for that, you will run out of fingers. :)

Yeah, EBD really made bally a few bucks didn't it!
Oh, and I just thought of "Jungle Lord Red edition" as well, which I recently got some decent pics for.
Nothing special, the first 100 tables had a red cab.
But still, this wasn't a marketed change like EBD LE.

Just one of those production changes that happens quite often. Some are "cooler" than others!

BTW, EBD, technically just the normal version and LE, but check out this link to see that it had a little more influence than that, even influencing the Golden Cue design (even though the ramp was thrown in there) in 1998.

http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=e...p;search=Search+Database&searchtype=quick
 
Hmmm. Some interesting System80A trivia...

Krull. I thought this was a popular table. Nope, it never went into production and only 10 units were made.
Wonder why?

Goin' Nuts. Same deal, no production, 10 units.

I don't know why. Both these tables are cool in VPM. Goin' Nuts is a really neat design as is Krull.
Maybe the unique designs caused problems with production? I think those tables would of sold as well as some other 80A's that did make it into production.

Highest Selling 80A table.
I was surprised by this, but it is Devils Dare sold many more units than any other table. Almost 4,000 units compared to other tables which sold around 1500 average or so.

Another note/question. Notice some of these tables are listed as widebody, but you look at the tables. Look at the DD playfield, and it doesn't look widebody.
Looks like the other PF's that aren't widebody.
Why is Gottlieb so confusing?

The difference is that Bally's widebodies were obvious. They were 6 1/2 inches wider than standard.
Gottliebs widebodies only 3 inches wider. Yet, you can barely even tell the difference between them and standard tables.
 
I'd include sharkey's shootout as an eight ball deluxe design.
 
More tidbits!

Lets amuse ourselves with some sys80 info. Interesting.

System 80B was more successful than A. While their highest selling table wasn't much more than Devils Dare for A, the tables sold or were produced at a much higher average. Many of them having been produced average in the 3000 range as opposed to 1500 average for A. Tables seemed consistent and most sold pretty well, but there wasn't one big seller.

System 80, right before 80A was far more successfull. Pinball sales in general declined around the 80A time period, but still...

I said Devils Dare was a real winner by selling almost 4,000 as a sys 80A table....
Black Hole kicked total ass!
I was shocked by this, but Black Hole actually sold about 500 MORE units than Eight Ball Deluxe's run! (not counting LE, of course, if you count that, it isn't really fair as Black Hole might of sold a bunch more if they made an "LE" of it).
Black Hole sold 8,774 units! That's alot of playfield!
This outsells TOM by over 2,000 units, to give you an idea.

People think Haunted House was as popular or more popular than Black Hole, but going by units produced, Black Hole sold almost 2,000 more units than HH.
In fact, The Amazing SpiderMan sold nearly a thousand more units than HH.
That is surprising to me as well.

System 80 looks like the clear winner as far as average units sold of the 3 80 boards.

I feel like fact finding today!
There is definitely some interesting and conflicting numbers when going through some of these facts.
 
I was going to stop my fact finding at sys80, but after looking at system 1, I can't stop there!

System 1. The glory days of pinball.

Can you guess the highest selling Gottlieb of all time.
It's not Black Hole.
It's...Sinbad?
Yeah, Sinbad (I'm talking SS of course) sold 13,000 units!
Tables in general sold very well in this era, but for some reason Sinbad was huge.
It is a cool game, but 13,000 units?
The next closest in units is Close Encounters which is 3,000 less than Sinbad at 10k.
Looks like all those games sold average about 7,000 units or more a piece.
Not bad.
No wonder why people want System 1 emulation in VPM! There is probably lots of memories and nostalgia with all these tables and units sold back in the day. They must of been everywhere.
I wish I were around to see that time, but most this System 1 and Bally 2518-17 tables were being shoved out of production before I was shoved out of my mom!

Think Gottlieb did well? Hardly. They did, but lets look at the 2518-17 tables. Like Sys1 Gottlieb, these were the first line of SS tables.
Highest selling table of all time?
Addams Family. It sold an unheard of 20,270 in its first run. Nothing touches that in the modern era. Even TZ sold 5,000 less units.
That is sort of an anomoly.

What isn't an anomoly is that 8 ball sold 20,230, only 40 units less than AF!
That pretty much makes them tied, IMO. The best selling tables ever.
Combine AF and 8ball and you have 40,500 units!

But like I said AF was an anomoly.
2518 tables were not. Mata Hari even sold better than even TZ.
Mata Hari - 16,260
Other notables...
Evel Knievel - 14,000
Power Play - 13,750
Strikes n' Spares - 12,820

Not bad for just as just those tables make up most of the 2518-17 tables.
No other board even touches this level of production.

2518-35 had some success, for sure, but the numbers are all over the place and so many more tables were produced, but the numbers can be misleading because of that. Some were duds, some rivaled the -17 tables

Some notes...
Centaur...only sold 3,700 units
EBD, compared to 8 ball, sold 12,000 LESS units! Yet, we all know it was still wildly popular and famous. Maybe they started the LE because they knew they didn't put enough in production the first time?
In fact, a ton of tables had more units made than EBD, even if you include the LE tables.

Looks like Playboy was right behind 8ball and AF as the next best seller ever at 18,250 units. A little surprising considering the other tables in this group.
Kiss...17,000
Star Trek right behind that with nearly 17,000 units.

More surprising aside from the low Centaur production.
Embryon - only 2,250 units.
Gold Ball - only 1,750
Spectrum - 1,000
Viking - 2,600
BTW, my beloved HGT did quite well at 14,550.

Great tables, just not many made for whatever reason. How Playboy sells 15,000+ more units than Centuar and many other tables is puzzling.
Kiss was a popular band, thus I'm not surprised with 17,000.
Star Trek, The Trekkies probably bought these up.
Playboy, that was a good table and was great for bars and the like. Of course, the Playboy name sold a few units.

I guess these are the numbers that eventually led to the current day Stern tables such as Soprono's, Nascar, and other tables that promote products.

With the 2518-35 tables, its a shame because there were many tables as good or better than the ones that sold big just because of the product advertised on it.
Yup, after this is when you started to see less of the original themes and more product placement.

Some of the product tables are fine, but it went overboard. At least with the 2518-35 product selling tables, they were actually good tables to go along with the name.
Then some boneheads later on tried selling crap tables just by putting a brand name on it.
Bally did it right back in the day, but money talks, and the original themes started to disappear a bit. Who can blame them?

There was still many more original themes, but obviously things did change a bit.
What a shame that some of the greatest bally original themed tables ever, IMO, didn't even compare in terms of production or demand.
It wasn't until later, or present day where people realized just how great some of the original themed older ballys were.
Now they are great sellers and tables like Paragon, Embryon, and Centaur are equal to the Playboy's and Kiss's, which wasn't the case back in the day.

Well, I just learned myself all sorts of pin trivia today! Good to take a break from the bickering and focus on the great history of all the tables we love today and try to recreate, even if we don't own them.
They won't last forever and many people won't get to play them, especially the low production ones.
This is why I really have a passion to get the best tables we can make out there. There is some roadblocks as always, but I never lose focus on why I do what I do.

When I want to do a mod or whatever, it has nothing to do with praise or showing up other authors or original authors, its all about paying respect to these great tables and making them better, out of respect to the guys who made it happen back in the day. And I think we are fortunate to have the ability to recreate in some form.

And there is some responsibility involved there. Hence my stand on thinking better tables are a little more important than the authors who recreate them, including myself. To me, it's always been about recreating a table that the original manufacturers would be proud of as others can experience tables they haven't and never will actually see.

Let's do what it takes to get these things out there in a way that would make the old schoolers happy, in a group effort, just like they did back in the day. If Bally had the conflict VPF had, my god I don't know if one table would of been built!
Who ever thought this would be possible (recreating tables and roms) in 1980? Let's make em proud!

We, as VPM authors and supporters of it, do have the power and ability to shed light on some great, but maybe otherwise forgotten works of art. It effects what pins people buy, what pins they gain interest in that they didn't know about, what we do does effect the whole pinball world.
We are actually a part of this pin history I'm talking about. Let's focus and do it right.
I'll get off my soapbox now!
 
Most of the people around here weren't even born when the best years of pinball came out, 1979, 1980. I'm lucky enought to have been able to play those games as they were "out of the box", so I remember them well

VP just doesn't get the life of those games, it was a totally different kind of game back then. It's tough to get the true "feel" of them, because back then, they were not selling ramps, or cheap dollar toys from china, they were selling GAMEPLAY.

That's where they went wrong as well. They stopped doing that, they tried to compete with the flash of Video Games. Gottlieb did nothing but put out one defective game after another (Devil's dare may have sold well, but it didn't help that every single one of them was broken down because of a flaw in the board design)

Give me a room with one classic ss and a modern game, and a roll of quarters, I will always spend $9.50 on the classic
 
So the classic eats 2 coins? :)
 
shiva said:
Most of the people around here weren't even born when the best years of pinball came out, 1979, 1980.

I doubt it. I've always been considered a "young guy" here and I'm 37...pushing forty! I was a kid back in 1979 but I remember all these games clearly....that time was the golden age of pinball....especially the early 80's where all my best memories come from. Well....then there's another golden age....perhaps even more glorious.... in the 90's...but that's a different story.

I'm sure most members are between 35 and 55. It would be interesting to know how many guys under 30 we actually have in this community. I doubt there's many (except Rob).

PS: Good thread...for a change...!!!
 
Actually, there's a great poll at VPF with 220 votes asking what is your age? Here's a link....

http://www.vpforums.com/forum/poll.php?s=&action=showresults&pollid=274

The Golden age should be the oldest and then silver age. All of us remember our teenage years as the best, especially if you were hanging around with friends while playing pinball. Make mine EM's in the real world, but in VP land it could be any type of table, since there is no comparison to VP and the real tables.
 
According to that, which may be a bit outdated but could still be semi accurate, the average age might be about 37-ish.
I added on a year or two because as time passes, I think our average members get older, while not enough young bucks are coming in to combat that.

People my age, mid to late 20's, only know tables from Cyclone to Funhouse to ToM and later.
When I was barely old enough to remember, maybe 5 years old, I remember playing a Kiss machine that was kind of beat up, even at that time it was old and worn and was considered a relic.
Other than that fortunate but brief experience, every other table I played had pretty advanced speech, toys, ramps, and flashing lights.

So yeah, I definitely missed the golden era.
Maybe tiltjlp would suggest that my unfortunate birth brought an end to the golden age of pinball.
Sorry guys!):
 
http://www.arcade-museum.com/year_detail.php?year=1958&orig_game_id=99&letter=0

These were released the year of my birth 1958. There was a book in 1998 titled "40 years of Pinball memories 1958-1998" or something like that. I don't know how old the author was. He must be old, but still I don't think he would care to write a 50 year one in a couple of years.

"Maybe tiltjlp would suggest that my unfortunate birth brought an end to the golden age of pinball." Can you believe that man? Has 'issues' he does.

The table looks good. Is it?
 
rob046 said:
destruk said:
If you're counting, Xenon has 3 versions with same layout, rules, sounds - different art.
Bally Star Trek has 4.
Harley Davidson has 4.
Mata Hari has 5.
Eight Ball Deluxe has 8.

There's more of course, but I'm outta time. :)

Yeah, lots of tables go through production changes, but they aren't advertised or newly marketed.
Like EBD LE which was marketed as a whole new table.
.

El Dorado proved to be another "clone" design, as I see 5 different versions listed for it.

Personally, I like the "Canada Dry" version of ED the best. :)
 
I think there are more numbers as a clone design than orginal sometimes. Gottlieb especially released the same design several times. Still do, look at the new sterns. At least 4 games are the exact same design, either rotated, or they swap a couple features.

Monopoly didn't just borrow from previous designs, it also took a large chunk of the Funhouse design as well. Just switch it to a mirror image, and compare it to monopoly.

Skate ball is a copy of flash, which may have got richie made, but then, isn't flash pretty close to 4 million BC in some ways?
 
I think it's almost impossible to create a truly unique table that doesn't 'borrow' features from other layouts and have a playable table, whether this is by design or coincidence is debatable.
 
I agree 'Oz. It would be hard to make a playable pin that did not use a plunger, flipper, bumpers and targets, not to mention lanes and bonuses, and lights. All features of past pins, but not all past pins.

What do all pinball tables have?

-pin
-ball
-table
 
I was not refering to actual pinball elementals, but to layout design. Whilst I think it is almost impossible, to have parts of any layout design that may not be considered a copy or flipside of another table, the trick is to apply such design in a unique manner via table rules and gameplay.
 
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