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Coming Up: VIP Ultimate!

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
Oh well, the VIP 3Click isnt even officially announced yet and its already outdated. :puck:

Believe it or not but i have just solved the entire VP8/9 problem all by myself. The new VIP (from now on 'Visual Install Pack - Ultimate') installs a fully working dual-setup where each table-type can only be run in the proper version. The 'Tables' folder is gone, instead there is a 'VP8 Tables' and a 'VP9 Tables' folder now which makes it very easy to keep the two incompatible table-types apart. The settings for VP8 and VP9 are also fully separated from each other which means you can set VP8 to run in fullscreen and VP9 to run in windowed etc as each VP version has its own registry key to store its values. In fact if you wish you can even run a VP8 and a VP9 table simultanously, right next to each other, because the one version does not in the slightest interfere with the other.

This has become possible because i did what nanotech should have done from the beginning; namely giving VP9 Tables a different extension. The setup is therefore now so that VP8 will only accept and load tables with a .vpt extension whereas VP9 will only accept and load tables with a .vp9 extension. The auto-load upon clicking a table file is integrated into this as well, which ensures that doubleclicking a table file will automatically start the right version of VP. Of course this means that existing VP9 tables with a .vpt extension will have to be renamed to .vp9, (which kind of makes sense anyway), but thats not a problem because the VP9 editor can now save as .vp9 (exclusively) and i also put a batch file in the 'VP9 Tables' folder which upon running will automatically rename all .vpt's in the folder to .vp9. The batch file can be reused as often as needed.

(New tables should of course only be released with a .vp9 extension anymore, but i will get to that in detail in a seperate thread.)



The Ultimate build is already done (its 3-Click too) and its working great. Cant tell you how pleased i am to see that it works so well because this is not just an update this time, this actually changes the whole substructure to what it should be, which in turn means a great leap forward to the whole VPinball thing at large. (At least in my opinion.) A release thread will follow later, i worked on this for nearly 20 hours nonstop, compiling, fixing, compiling, fixing, straight through the night, so i really have to take a nap now. You may gladly post a line or two in the meantime though,...i will be back in a couple of hours,...
 

Attachments

TheMcD

sXe And Better Than You
So wait, you can't open VP8 tables to re-work them into VP9 tables anymore? Not to be a dick about it, but that's one point that popped into my mind when I read that both are now completely exclusive.

The McD

EDIT: F'rinstance, a good example would be the fabled 16:9 tables that everyone apparently gets high on like it's drugs (not a derogatory comment, the demand for these tables just is too massive for me to understand), which to 98% are based off of old VP8 tables.
 
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Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
Ah, good thinking, (much appreciated), but fortunately thats not a problem.

To edit VP8 files in the new VP9 there are two simple ways:

1.) Rename the to-be-edited VP8 file from .vpt to .vp9

or

2.) Make a copy of the to-be-edited VP8 file and give it a .vp9 extension

Once the file got opened in VP9 you can save your edits directly into the .vp9 format.


(Note: People who merely want to play their downloaded tables neednt be concerned about this. This is only relevant to people who actually want to edit existing VP8 tables into new VP9 tables.)



Any other concerns or questions? Just let me know. After all nobodies perfect, so if you think i overlooked something, by all means spit it out,...:)
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
BTW, im also thinking of removing some of the folders.

Apparently not needed (neither by VP nor by VPM) are:

Artwork
HI
INI
INP
STA
Wave

These seem to be belonging to the default MAME folder-structure but entirely irrelevant to VP and VPM. (Much like a lot of the registry keys that are being created for each ROM, which may have their uses for Video-Arcades but not for Pinball emulation.) In fact i dont have these folders in my own setup for years and i dont have the feeling that im missing anything.


Has anyone ever seen these folders being used for anything? If not i will can them next time i compile,...


EDIT:

VP Uses/Needs:

  • Music
  • Samples
  • Scripts
  • Tables
  • User
VPM Uses/Needs:

  • CFG
  • Memcard
  • NVRAM
  • ROMs
  • Samples
  • Snap
So these other folders are definitely unused by either program and will therefore be removed with the next compile,...
 
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Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
WAVE is for recording audio using PINMAME32.

The McD
Aha. But still irrelevant for the VIP setup, right?

(I suppose the PinMAME32 setup comes with its own folder structure and thus its own 'Wave' folder, right? Cant check, dont have it here.)
 

JoeM

Pinball Nudger
Sounds to be really cool Phoenixx !!!

Honestly, i think thats it !

JoeM

P.S: That could be one reason for me to try VP 9
 

faralos

Faralos
and another is better ball physics, bigger ball, see through ramps and that ever present 'can't create off-screen z-surface', crash to desktop bug. ok aside from that, vp9 is a good program!
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
Sounds to be really cool Phoenixx !!!

Honestly, i think thats it !
I agree, it is cool, but apparently its not cool enough.

(On the contrary, gauged by all the 'excitement' i might as well delete the whole thing.)


A little statistic summary after 24 hours:

120 views

4 replies by other people

3 persons replying

1 person indicating interest

0 times thanks button pushed


Well, i dont know about you but i think this is -L-A-M-E-

Therefore i conclude: Once again, rather than sweating like a pig in front of my PC to solve one of the biggest problems the new VP9 format has introduced, i probably would have done WAY more good donating that 20 hours of PC capacity to Folding@Home to help find a cure for cancer and going swimming instead. At the very least i would have had a good time,...
 

TheMcD

sXe And Better Than You
What? One of the biggest problems VP9 has introduced?

I've been using seperate folders and seperate shortcuts since launch and the only real problem with VP9 is the incompatibility with ATI cards.

TBH, you should have stopped after the 3-click edition. Everything beyond that is going to start to be a quite niched problem-addressment and thus will not spark large interest.

The McD
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Phoenixx, you are doing this for the newbies, so obviously people who have everything set up aren't going to be too excited. :) I think it's a wonderful thing.

Try posting it at the other site and you'll get plenty of "thanks"
 

JoeM

Pinball Nudger
What? One of the biggest problems VP9 has introduced?

I've been using seperate folders and seperate shortcuts since launch and the only real problem with VP9 is the incompatibility with ATI cards.

TBH, you should have stopped after the 3-click edition. Everything beyond that is going to start to be a quite niched problem-addressment and thus will not spark large interest.

The McD




I really can't get this !

I absolutely agree with Bob and i think it's a damned good thing
and definitely one step forward !

JoeM
 

JoeM

Pinball Nudger
Hi Bob !

Wanted to mention i'm just a bit scared about the VP 9 nudge.

Is it really that lousy ?!?;)

JoeM
 

JoeM

Pinball Nudger
Hi McD !

and if i had to choose between the org-installer and this one i would without
any doubt take this one !

JoeM
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
What? One of the biggest problems VP9 has introduced?

I've been using seperate folders and seperate shortcuts since launch and the only real problem with VP9 is the incompatibility with ATI cards.
Really. Well, then who was it again who told me that running VP8 tables and VP9 tables from the same setup messes up the settings and leads to all sorts of problems, etc.? Or did that magically change in the meantime?

Also, isnt it true that VP8 tables dont run decently in VP9, and VP9 tables dont run decently in VP8? How many users have had problems because they ran a table in the wrong version and didnt know what the problem is?

Honestly, i dont think you realize the impact this new setup has. Let me explain. VP8 and VP9 are in essence two different programs which work with 2 different types of tables. Still they are being treated as one and the same thing despite the obvious incompatibilities. This leads to a lot of problems and inconveniences. For instance, right now both VP versions are using the same registry key to store the settings. Ergo: when one version is run it necessarily overwrites the settings of the other, meaning there is no way to configure the two VP versions independently since VersionA is always forced to reuse whatever settings you made in VersionB and vice versa. The VIP Ultimate addresses this problem by giving each VP version its own registry key to store its settings in. As a result each VP version can be configured 100% independently from the other and each editor also remembers its own 'Recent' dir, meaning the directory you last loaded a table from. (Obviously useful if you have VP8 and VP9 tables in different folders.)

Then there is the table-type problem, IMO the biggest of all. VP8 tables have to be run in VP8 and VP9 tables in VP9, still there is nothing right now that prevents a user from loading a table into the wrong version. Reason: both table-types share the same extension, hence can be run in either version. Again the VIP Ultimate addresses this problem by properly separating the table-types into VP8 and VP9 tables respectively. Furthermore the ability for VP9 to load .vpt files has been removed and substituted with the ability to load files with a .vp9 extension. That way it is no longer possible to load a VP8 table (meaning files with a .vpt extension) into VP9, and since the VP8 executable does not accept .vp9 files it is also impossible to load a VP9 table into VP8.

Another important point is the auto-start issue. Right now both VP8 and VP9 tables are .vpt's, which means there is no way to have the two table-types auto-start in the right version. Which version a table will be run in upon clicking a file solely depends on which version the .vpt files happen to be associated with, and that of course means that one table-type will necessarily auto-start in the wrong version. Again the VIP Ultimate addresses this problem by separating VP versions and table-types, which in turn makes it possible to associate .vpt files with VP8 and .vp9 file with VP9. As a result it doesnt matter what table-type you click, it will guaranteed auto-start in the right VP version because of the proper filetype/program association.


So all in all we now have two 100% separate VP versions, integrated in the setup as a whole yet 100% independently configurable, each of them working exclusively with the tables that are supposed to be ran in it. We also have a 100% perfect means of separating VP8 and VP9 tables due to different extensions, and last but not least we have a 100% safe way of having tables auto-start in the proper version as well. In one word: a 100% perfect flawless setup with no problems left whatsoever. All it takes to make this work (in a standard kind of way) is to officially change the extension for VP9 tables to .vp9. The rest has already been done by me,...



P.S.: The VIP Ultimate will install the entire dual-setup plus VPM plus all additional files merely by clicking the 'Install' button. I personally call that a huge leap forward not only as far as install time and effort is concerned because it adresses and solves all the problems the new table type has introduced at one go as well. But as they say, all you can do is lead a horse to water. If it refuses to drink, best you let it die and move on,...
 
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TomcatLeader

Pinball Wizard
I think it's a great idea who's time is overdue. Just imagine the time and effort in configuring your separate folders for VP8 and VP9, not to mention the installation time as well if you were to do it the old fashioned way. Now you get two for the price of one in one neat little package. Bada-boom, bada-bing. No fuss, no muss.
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
I think it's a great idea who's time is overdue. Just imagine the time and effort in configuring your separate folders for VP8 and VP9, not to mention the installation time as well if you were to do it the old fashioned way. Now you get two for the price of one in one neat little package. Bada-boom, bada-bing. No fuss, no muss.
You got it TL, thats exactly right.

Two in one, separated yet fully integrated. And no more confusion as to what table in what VP version, etc.



Phoenixx, you are doing this for the newbies, so obviously people who have everything set up aren't going to be too excited.
Well perhaps they should be. I know i would be if somebody offered me a way to separate VP8 and VP9 into two independent things which are still nicely integrated into the setup as a whole.

Perhaps the problem is that neither the problems nor the advantages of seeing them solved are really clear to the majority of users?

Try posting it at the other site and you'll get plenty of "thanks"
You know that im not doing this for thanks, if that were the case i would have stopped bothering years ago. Im doing this because i think it is good to solve problems, so if i can, i do. As always those who realize the advantages of getting rid of those problems will appreciate it, those who dont, well, its their loss,...
 
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TheMcD

sXe And Better Than You
Holy crap, wall of text incoming. Replies in bold italics in quote.

Really. Well, then who was it again who told me that running VP8 tables and VP9 tables from the same setup messes up the settings and leads to all sorts of problems, etc.? Or did that magically change in the meantime? Well I'll tell you what, it did. To re-quote myself: "And there have been some problems when using VP9 and VP8 in the same folder, don't know if there's a solution yet." I never personally experienced the problem and thus never actually found an explanation. "All sorts of problems" is overshooting the point. I haven't heard from such a report for multiple months, so I guess it's out of the world.

Also, isnt it true that VP8 tables dont run decently in VP9, and VP9 tables dont run decently in VP8? How many users have had problems because they ran a table in the wrong version and didnt know what the problem is? That may be true. Now when I look at the situation over at the other site, disregarding the new installer that has different reasons and isn't that ripe anyway, you have to download VP9 seperately. Shouldn't you know that there are differences judging from the differenciation between 8.x and 9.x tables? Apparently I can't speak for everybody and I've had quite the experience with this setup stuff.

Honestly, i dont think you realize the impact this new setup has. Let me explain. VP8 and VP9 are in essence two different programs which work with 2 different types of tables. Still they are being treated as one and the same thing despite the obvious incompatibilities. This leads to a lot of problems and inconveniences. For instance, right now both VP versions are using the same registry key to store the settings. Ergo: when one version is run it necessarily overwrites the settings of the other, meaning there is no way to configure the two VP versions independently since VersionA is always forced to reuse whatever settings you made in VersionB and vice versa. Why am I using different settings in VersionA? I don't get it. It should have the same graphics settings, the same keyboard settings etc, so why split them?

The VIP Ultimate addresses this problem by giving each VP version its own registry key to store its settings in. As a result each VP version can be configured 100% independently from the other and each editor also remembers its own 'Recent' dir, meaning the directory you last loaded a table from. (Obviously useful if you have VP8 and VP9 tables in different folders.) Well, I can read the directory in my 'Recent' dir, so I know which is VP8 and which is VP9.

Then there is the table-type problem, IMO the biggest of all. VP8 tables have to be run in VP8 and VP9 tables in VP9, still there is nothing right now that prevents a user from loading a table into the wrong version. Reason: both table-types share the same extension, hence can be run in either version. Again the VIP Ultimate addresses this problem by properly separating the table-types into VP8 and VP9 tables respectively. Furthermore the ability for VP9 to load .vpt files has been removed and substituted with the ability to load files with a .vp9 extension. That way it is no longer possible to load a VP8 table (meaning files with a .vpt extension) into VP9, and since the VP8 executable does not accept .vp9 files it is also impossible to load a VP9 table into VP8. Well, nothing to say here.

Another important point is the auto-start issue. Right now both VP8 and VP9 tables are .vpt's, which means there is no way to have the two table-types auto-start in the right version. Which version a table will be run in upon clicking a file solely depends on which version the .vpt files happen to be associated with, and that of course means that one table-type will necessarily auto-start in the wrong version. Again the VIP Ultimate addresses this problem by separating VP versions and table-types, which in turn makes it possible to associate .vpt files with VP8 and .vp9 file with VP9. As a result it doesnt matter what table-type you click, it will guaranteed auto-start in the right VP version because of the proper filetype/program association. I wonder if front-ends would require re-working because of that extension changing. I use the actual program to load my tables, but I guess I'm the exception. I can actually go on record and say that I have never used the auto-start. Never. Either front-ends or the actual program.


So all in all we now have two 100% separate VP versions, integrated in the setup as a whole yet 100% independently configurable, each of them working exclusively with the tables that are supposed to be ran in it. We also have a 100% perfect means of separating VP8 and VP9 tables due to different extensions, and last but not least we have a 100% safe way of having tables auto-start in the proper version as well. In one word: a 100% perfect flawless setup with no problems left whatsoever. All it takes to make this work (in a standard kind of way) is to officially change the extension for VP9 tables to .vp9. The rest has already been done by me,... Heh, yeah. That's going to be quite the process. Re-uploading every VP9 table just because of that change?



P.S.: The VIP Ultimate will install the entire dual-setup plus VPM plus all additional files merely by clicking the 'Install' button. I personally call that a huge leap forward not only as far as install time and effort is concerned because it adresses and solves all the problems the new table type has introduced at one go as well. But as they say, all you can do is lead a horse to water. If it refuses to drink, best you let it die and move on,.. Great metaphor, with the exception that it doesn't fit. But I won't go into detail there.
And then a few other things I would like to slightly adress (well, maybe just one, but whatever):
A) Now that the installer that was made over at the other site was named, comparing the two isn't a legitimate thing. I mean, using only one would be better, but that won't work (for quite obvious reasons). Our installer is mainly made for two reasons. Having our own updateable solution (for the case you say "fuck it" and get out) which is a the smaller reason. The larger one is the process that will make our tournament tables work. It's quite complicated (at least from what I heard) and shouldn't be forced on the user in case he wants to participate. Installing VP with Yogi's guide is very easy. Installing the tourney stuff would be worse. But screw that, why am I detailing this?
B) Once again, the issue with the other site pops up. There is only one thing to say there: Without actually getting over there - and it may be a bit blunt, but it's true - your project will be a lot harder. Pulling the VIP Ultimate through would kill the current uniformity and will only worsen the situation.

Well, I wrote more than I had planned. Hope this doesn't break out another huge debate again.

The McD
 

JoeM

Pinball Nudger
Hi McD !

Your so called "large" reason for the org-installer (the tournament thing) is
maybe a funny feature but more or less nothing compared to the Phoenixx solution.

JoeM
 

TheMcD

sXe And Better Than You
Obviously. Tourneys with VPM tables and an online VP high score table are obviously bullshit and aren't worth attempting. Sure thing.

The McD
 

JoeM

Pinball Nudger
Obviously. Tourneys with VPM tables and an online VP high score table are obviously bullshit and aren't worth attempting. Sure thing.

The McD


Hear, hear !

But honestly i didn't say that at all. Tourneys are cool but not as cool as the
100 % safe Phoenixx installer and that's why this thing is surer than sure and
that's why i prefer it. It's that easy.

JoeM
 
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TheMcD

sXe And Better Than You
I mainly said that because tourneys are my personal main project. Putting them off as "maybe a funny feature" is almost on par with a personal insult against me.

And this also proves why Phoenixx should try and convince us over at the other site to adjust with that standard. (Always running a batch file to convert really isn't what I expected when I thought the process would be simplified) Apparently, he has enough people that would heavily approve that.

Seriously. 50% of the support threads get answered with "Oh, fuck your installation, get the VIP." - not in that way, but pretty much the same.

The McD
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
Well there is not much to say to this because either you do understand the advantages or you do not. I am not forcing anyone.


As for the installer, (not talking to you personally now McD), im only saying this once so listen good: If it is copied, no matter in what shape or form, even though i gave my express O.K. to distribute it at the 'other' site, i guarantee you i will take this personally, and i am not AJ. And what exactly that means is clear i hope; namely that there are 'options' to be explored which might have a rather 'undesirable' effect on a certain website.


Here are the reasons why you better take this seriously:

I have been asked for permission regarding the distribution of the VIP. The PM with the question came in before i publically stated what i think of stealing AJs forumname, and since the situation escalated rather than being solved with reason i did not answer this PM.

When later asked by different members whether the VIP can be distributed at the new site i clearly stated that the VIP can be distributed by anyone since it is not a tool to play political games with.

Noah Fentz in the meantime, despite first asking for permission to distribute the VIP, changed his mind and stated that he does not think installers are a good idea and that he would therefore prefer to walk people through the manual process. I told him thats alright with me and got insulted in return.

Now it is obviously so that the advantage of having a unified installer to offer has become somewhat clearer again. That is a good thing of course, and the VIP can still be provided with no strings attached. BUT if anyone thinks i will stand idly by while somebody copies what took me years to develop then they are sadly mistaken. Because the only reason for doing so would be wanting my concept but not wanting to take it from me!

And i assure you, thats not how this is going to work. Not this time, and guaranteed not without the proper consequences. Stealing the VPForums name for a quickstart so they dont have to build up their own reputation was bad enough but ultimately not my business. The VIP and the concept behind it is, therefore i assure you i will not tolerate it being taken by someone solely based on the grounds that they do want the product alright but somehow avoid the producer.


This is just a friendly warning, but i do recommend to take this seriously. Since there are no mechanisms in this so called community to prevent somebody from shamelessly plagiarizing a product for the sole sake of avoiding the original producer i will have to retaliate accordingly myself, and since i AM going to do so, dont come crying to me later, i was fair enough to warn you so if you are stupid enough to ignore it then its your own fault.


P.S.: This is a one-time warning and NOT debatable so please spare me any tries at justifying actions which do not change the facts. I am open for suggestions though, so if you think the VIP can be made better by adding any features by all means make your proposals. I might be strict when it comes to my stuff but i am not unreasonable. If anyone wants to talk to me in private rather than here in public, just send me a PM.
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
And this also proves why Phoenixx should try and convince us over at the other site to adjust with that standard.
I would do that right away if i had any indication that Noah is willing to solve the conflict.

What i ask is not unreasonable, but gauged by his last PM to me i dont think he is willing to solve squat. (Which of course isnt exactly news.) Hence i saved my breath.
 

Phoenixx

Starfleet Member
Site Supporters
Hear, hear !

But honestly i didn't say that at all. Tourneys are cool but not as cool as the
100 % safe Phoenixx installer and that's why this thing is surer than sure and
that's why i prefer it. It's that easy.
BTW, thanks for your vote of confidence!

Like i said, im not doing this for thanks or pats on the shoulder but it is of course nice to hear it when people are appreciating my work,...
 
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  • @ Ike Savage:
    where is the unapprove option, anyway? is that a super mod thing or something from the admin panel?
    Quote
  • @ Ike Savage:
    oh wait, I see it
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  • @ JonPurpleHaze:
    true, but they could also be invisible to users and perhaps allow the category to be removed
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  • @ JonPurpleHaze:
    Don't know, do know that if you delete a category all files would also be removed so that's bad,
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  • @ Ike Savage:
    seems like we discussed it in some length at one point and came up with the current arrangement, but I don't have a strong opinion on that stuff. the one thing I do like is that I can clear out weaker tables from the main section without deleting them
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  • @ JonPurpleHaze:
    Sounds fine to me Ike, can't disagree with ya!
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  • @ Ike Savage:
    also, just to be clear-- the issue with "unapprove" is that you don't know if the table actually gets deleted from the server, right? AFAIK I have no way of seeing where the tables actually lie on the server, so it's something I can't test effectively
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    They wouldn't get deleted from the server, I don't think.
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    Can we get back to the subdomain folders/files, the uploads.pinballnirvana.com folder is where uploads would need to be, just wondering what might need to be deleted..
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  • @ Ike Savage:
    do you mind a phone call? probably easier to discuss, save some wear and tear on my hands, too
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    No problems Ike, can't talk now but will try and set this up.
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    okay, well let me know if you need space cleared up across the torrent area, because I have some ideas
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  • @ JonPurpleHaze:
    Yeah, noticed a .zip file contains many versions etc..
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  • @ JonPurpleHaze:
    Uploading a 1.34 GB Pink Floyd The Wall zip file via ftp to test...
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  • @ JonPurpleHaze:
    The file is actually on the server in FP originals but isn't public.
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  • @ Anthias:
    Um, so, Hi!. What did I miss? (he says as though he ducked to the toilet while the adds were on...)
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  • @ AnonTet:
    Hi guys, I«m asking here as it might have a quicker response. How can I check the ball size used by authors in FP? or at least the default size if anyone knows. Thanks
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  • @ Gimli:
    Most FP authors use the default size and don't know how to use BAM to alter it.
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  • @ Gimli:
    I think it may be 13.8 though
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  • @ AnonTet:
    Thanks. But while I've waited I've looked at a ring around a ramp in LotR that's 26mm so i figure the ball being 24mm. A bit short of real life ball size if that's so.
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  • @ AnonTet:
    of course I could've used my brains earlier and create a table with some carefully spaced guides and check that the ball is in fact 27mm in diameter. Peeking at fp.exe and bam.dll and there's no way to change this. you can set the colour and the id to track it though (but that's known)
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  • @ Gimli:
    With Bam custom ball coding you can create balls of any size...see my titorial
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  • @ Gimli:
    +1
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    @ Gimli: https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/index.php?threads/bam-feature-how-to-guides.19601/post-120547 +1
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