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FP is what we need!?

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
IMHO,
This Future Pinball stuff appears to be what the VP "community" needs Right Now, sure it might go commercial but VP already has with this ultra pin deal that has soured my mouth. I can't even play the FP Tables properly but it's my video cards problem!

The screenshots are awesome and scapino's Close Encounters is my excuse to try and get a video card. VPM is not a factor to me, I don't play VPM tables due to my love for EM's. I'd scrap VP and FP in a NY minute if "WE" had a ongoing Open Source Pinball Sim Project but this dream has never materialized.

I'd like to request that Mibs (1969 Gottlieb) be recreated in FP, My favorite pin of all time....:rof:
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1589
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
There's not much point to slamming either of them - Ultracade is rewriting vast sections of code for visual pinball to make it more realistic before they sell it in their system. Future Pinball is going to be next (Black already signed the agreement for that - I heard) - so any bugs or problems future pinball has will also be resolved by Ultracade before they start selling that one.
As for Open Source pinball - if it would ever be as good or better than the current offerings, you could rest assured some company would come and buy that too, to sell. So what is anyone going to do about it? heh...Kinda hard to turn down free cash or prizes when offered for something that is free, very tempting. Even Linux is resold in several different flavors.

Behind curtain 1 - Randy, Black (according to credits), and Mark Perris (spelling?) - 3 man strike team taking on pinball, sold out.
Behind curtain 2 - Black, Stein, Lio and undisclosed shadowy scary people, lol - taking on pinball, sold out
Behind curtain 3 - make your game...hmm...

I think what the community really needs, is to get direction, a time schedule, and cooperation - but like that will ever happen, so we all just wait....and wait... I'm working on a bunch of tables - just don't expect to see them released to be shrink wrapped and sold off. :)
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Thanks for the info destruk, I didn't realize fp was involved with that ultrapin deal and it sickened me, this was a hobby for me and I love pinball but will never pay for either of these, I'll just buy a real pin instead. The Open Source discussion should continue, many fine developments have NEVER been bought by greedy corps because they would NOT allow it....
:drummer:

I like curtain #3, the other options involve a corporation that i didn't know existed until a few months ago...
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
jph...

I won't go back through all the foreshadowings and warnings I've been through already, here or in vpf.

I will say...enjoy what you have while you have it! I do believe that sooner or later (between fp intending to go commercial, between ultracade using vp, and whatever else may come along) things are going to get dicey...and quite possibly, it's gonna be all over.

And before anyone calls me to task and makes me out to be a doomsayer again, and that I'm wrong...let me just say that I HOPE I AM!
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
tudnut said:
jph...

I won't go back through all the foreshadowings and warnings I've been through already, here or in vpf.

I will say...enjoy what you have while you have it! I do believe that sooner or later (between fp intending to go commercial, between ultracade using vp, and whatever else may come along) things are going to get dicey...and quite possibly, it's gonna be all over.

And before anyone calls me to task and makes me out to be a doomsayer again, and that I'm wrong...let me just say that I HOPE I AM!
The sad thing is you could be right. In spite of UltraCade has said about us being able to continue releasing tables like we always have, things could change. Right now UltraCade might need to permit free releases, so they have a ready supply of tables to use for their for profit projects. But whose to say that if they decide at some later date the free releases are hurting their sales, that they wouldn't cut us off. I don't see that happening, but who knows.

Would I let UltraCade use some of my tables, if they wanted them? Well, I'd have to see what their offer was, but my disability benefits make for an aweful tight budget. And even if I could resist the lure of the money, think of the boost my ego would get having my games and my username part of Pinball Legends. So I can understand why the guys who are involved got involved.
 

forchia

Pinball Player
If people really loves pinball like they use to repeat again and again, I wonder if anyone amongst the table developers involved in the UC project asked for:

Not money, but a FREE, IMPROVED and WORKING version of Visual Pinball.

Remember that no one but Mr. Foley will get rich from the whole thing, but a working VP version would benefit the whole community by the other side...

Think about it...
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
VP does work and a damn sight better then FP by all accounts, sure it could be improved upon and the coding for these improvements has already been done. All that remains is for those improvements to be transfered to the current unexpiring version, meanwhile as it is VP is still most functional and useable. I have also heard rumours that the VPM boys were tring to aquire the 'new' VP source code to release as open source in exchange for allowing Ultracade the use of VPM.
 

scapino

Pinball Wizard
The tables on Pinball Legends are VASTLY different from what you get in VP. Aside from being rotated 90 degrees Counterclockwise, they are also done from a 45 degree isometric view, ie NO 3d vanishing point. The top of the table is just as wide as the bottom of the table. Like a top down view, but from 45 degrees in front, so there is some depth to the 3d objects. Since my tables use reels, I've had to completely re-do (re-render, and re-manufacture the reel images), my tables, for Pinball Legends machines. Frankly, I wouldnt want to release the PL versions for general consumption, as most people are running VP on desktop monitors, not horizontal flat screens, and my PC versions have the backglass nicly integrated into the overal image, and just look better on a PC. They are apples and oranges. I will always continue to make my PC versions, the way I do now, and convert them for PL use.

Compare my PC version on the left to the Ultracade version I made on the right. I like the PC version better, because I dont own a big flat screen that lies down on my desk, sideways. ;)

BTW, I dont think ANYONE will get "rich" from Pinball Legends. There just is not that much money to be had in the coin-op, and home gaming machine markets, especially at the prices these units go for. They may be able to make a good living, but far from "rich".

I wonder how much Gary Stern makes? I'd be VERY suprised if he makes more then 100K a year.

Kurt
 

Attachments

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Not quite apples and oranges, I would contend, since it is impossible to breed an orange from an apple, whilst some of the new genetic materials from the orange could be incorporated into a new improved apple, don't you think? The physics and graphical handling tweaks for starters, I would think, those few memory leaks and such.
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
Your Pinball Legends table looks very nice Scapino - it shows the advantage of being able to have a portrait oriented screen. However, you are correct in pointing out that this is not practical for home computers, only for the set up the PL machine has.

Looking at what can be achieved in VP and with it's ability to incorporate VPM I find I am taking less and less notice of FP as time goes on. I just prefer VP and see no reason to jump in with FP.

DS
 

scapino

Pinball Wizard
Thanks, Davidsss!

Stevo.... Yes the physics improvements are nice (but not THAT big of a deal), and the graphical improvements are just the ability to rotate the decals. Ahigh says hes going to work on being able to rotate emreels asap, mainly because of the EM tables that I do, that really need the score reels to be able to go 90 deg cc.

I'm sure the general population will see the changes eventually. I have no reason not to believe David when he says he sent the chages to Randy. It is up to Randy to release the changes. Its his program, after all. The reason I believe David is that he has no reason to hold on to the changes. If someone wanted to make a homemade big screen virtual pinball machine, they would still be spending a couple grand to do so, so its not like there would be enough people who could afford to do it to eat into his buisness.

Also if you check out his Arcade Legends type machines, he also sells kits to make your own from generic mame cabs.., I think he is probably going to sell his PC pinball interface board (uShock, as well as packaged software), to people who want to build thier own. (Hed make his money on the special VP tables, not the custom VP software itself.

But all of this is just speculation anyway. UC has just merged with GLobal VR, and they are busy moving at the moment. The last I heard, they have to put some of thier prototypes out in locations, and see if they generate enough revenues to
warant a production run.

I hope they are successfull, but you never know....the whole thing could end up being dropped. Thats buisness. :)

Kurt
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
Merging the business could have all sorts of consequences. Hopefully they can still make it a goer.

I hope Randy does release the improvements, it is obvious VP is something which has receded into a less important part of his life but if he really doesn't want to deal with it maybe he could give it to someone or release the source code. At least he could release the changes.

DS
 

Pinball_Ken

Out an' out pinhead!
Well that explains why they've gone quiet on the boards.

I've been fortunate to receive a recent UltraCade VP and have to say that the aiming has improved considerably, particularly up the centre of a table with proper flipper arcs of 50 degrees or so. It also appears to be more stable. I've not had it crash on me yet!

So I hope too that Randy eventually releases it, but he may be waiting, of course, for the 'final version' that will go to the public in the form of Pinball Legends/UltraPin tables.

PK :D
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
Correcting the 'straight up' shots would be fantastic, they are virtually impossible in VP - I generally try and rebound shots to get them to go straight up the table. It certainly would improve Spirit of 76 which is much harder because that shot is close to impossible.

DS
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Oh I dunno, I don't think the straight up shots are 'not' that hard, though you do need to increase the flipper swing to at least 56 degrees or so, which is a little unrealistic.

edited......'not' :p
 

Rook

Inserted Coin
I'm pretty interested in seeing what will come of this all. I really want UP/PBL to be a success so we get things like the nudge detecting board which has been the major stumbling block in making my own VPM cabinet.

I haven't tried Future Pinball yet... mostly because of fear. :)

But the few screen shots I've seen look nice. I wish there was a non-mamewah graphical front end for VP/VPM. It would be nice to have rows of cabinets set up in software showing all it's artistic glory, and then hit the 'enter' button to select a table.

I'd try to do it myself, but that would be a train wreck of galactic proportions. :lol

Russ
 

ValamirCleaver

Phoenix... rise...
Rook said:
I wish there was a non-mamewah graphical front end for VP/VPM. It would be nice to have rows of cabinets set up in software showing all it's artistic glory, and then hit the 'enter' button to select a table.

Russ
Is this something that you'd like to use?





These are shots from the VP output of 3D-ARCADE. The setup is somewhat conveluted, but when done correctly the results are stunning.

Tom
 

Pinball_Ken

Out an' out pinhead!
StevOz said:
Oh I dunno, I don't think the straight up shots are 'not' that hard, though you do need to increase the flipper swing to at least 56 degrees or so, which is a little unrealistic.

edited......'not' :p
Mmm ... thanks for that StevOz. With a 118 or 242 Start Angle, depending on the flipper, it seems to work well in VP6.1 or 7 in improving centre shots!

I still think that Metallik's Speed figure of 0.135 is unbeatable for aiming in VP and strength, of course, then depends on the solenoid type for that particular table.

But I'd appreciate your views on these things, as I'd like to release MM with better flipper settings, than my usual ones.

PK :D
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
JonPurpleHaze said:
IMHO,
This Future Pinball stuff appears to be what the VP "community" needs Right Now, sure it might go commercial but VP already has with this ultra pin deal that has soured my mouth. I can't even play the FP Tables properly but it's my video cards problem!
I bought a new pc and I have my first 3-D graphic card and FP runs Ok and VPM runs great, but I am losing interest fast in pinball, because I have been playing/buying other pc games. Fun stuff.

I'd like to request that Mibs (1969 Gottlieb) be recreated in FP, My favorite pin of all time....:rof:
http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1589
Nice pics, but none of them are from top down. I would make a MIBs if I had a top down playfield pic. I even thought about making a decal table of MIBs from those angle playfield pics at IPDB, but I really don't like full decal tables as they usually play like crap "for me" with balls bouncing off imaginary walls and going right through other walls.
 

forchia

Pinball Player
StevOz said:
... I have also heard rumours that the VPM boys were tring to aquire the 'new' VP source code to release as open source in exchange for allowing Ultracade the use of VPM.
That's a real relief!
I really hope they'll succeed in their aim. Very honorable guys. :king:
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Pinball_Ken said:
StevOz said:
Oh I dunno, I don't think the straight up shots are 'not' that hard, though you do need to increase the flipper swing to at least 56 degrees or so, which is a little unrealistic.

edited......'not' :p
Mmm ... thanks for that StevOz. With a 118 or 242 Start Angle, depending on the flipper, it seems to work well in VP6.1 or 7 in improving centre shots!

I still think that Metallik's Speed figure of 0.135 is unbeatable for aiming in VP and strength, of course, then depends on the solenoid type for that particular table.

But I'd appreciate your views on these things, as I'd like to release MM with better flipper settings, than my usual ones.

PK :D
Well I think those kind of upswing speeds are way to fast (unrealistic) and tend to use .07, though I do use 0.14 or 0.15 downswing speed to prevent most ball through flipper. This is scripted into my tables, you may even like to download them sometime. ;)

Example code....

Code:
	If keycode = LeftFlipperKey and gameon Then							' flip left flipper if game in play
		LeftFlipper.Speed = 0.07										' flipper up speed
		LeftFlipper.Strength = 5
		LeftFlipper.RotateToEnd
and...

Code:
	If keycode = LeftFlipperKey and gameon Then							' drop left flipper
		LeftFlipper.Speed = 0.14										' flipper down speed
		LeftFlipper.Strength = 0.1
		LeftFlipper.RotateToStart										' game is in play
		PlaySound "FlipperDown"
	End If
Notice I also decrease the strength on the downswing to prevent those powerful downswing flips. ;)
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
Someone mentioned that the Ultra guys might feel a pinch sooner or later and come down on us. I just thought I'd clarify that: despite what went on between them and the MAME people, as far as I can see here, they've only whatever LICENSED rights they have with the original table creators. I've heard so many different sides to that MAME thing that I'm not sure WHAT to believe...but I think, in this case, what they'd have to do is somehow send on their provocations to the people that actually own the rights to the tables, Williams and Bally, whomever happens to own the Gottlieb rights now, etc.

However, what scares me is that it probably wouldn't take all that much provocation...and those people DO actually own the rights, y'know. (And, now that I think about it, consider this: the Ultra people would have kept their word and not bothered us directly a bit...it would be the parent companies that did.)

As for the other provocative argument here, that of coming up with an "open source" program...I think it would be GREAT! Though, keep in mind what that means, since it involves both bad and good: good, in that a number of different people could be constantly working on it and releasing updated versions (though someone would have to take charge and oversee its direction); bad in that you run the risk of having the "geeks" take over! (I'm a BIG proponent of both OpenOffice and the GIMP...but, from hanging around the groups, I've learned that a LOT of the people behind them could give a rat's butt about people that don't know how to use a command line!...not exactly the way I'd like the future of software to go. They tend to forget that the programs are supposed to be tools for people, and not just their own playthings....means to an end, rather than ends in themselves.)

Still, if Randy really isn't interested in ever making a profit, himself, I'm kind of surprised that he hasn't let it go open source (GNU?...though only for windows, as of now). Even if he's worried that he'll lose his credit, I would think that's incorrect. If anything, he'd be more enshrined than ever! (Perhaps it's Black that's prevented something like that from happening...but then, does he have any control over vp anymore? Was he involved with the Ultra deal?)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I've been around close to five years now, and from day one I have heard talk of a need for Open Source. I figure it won't happen , simply because it hasn't yet. If the programmers among us haven't banded together to start an Open Source project, it must be because it's harder than it seems. And if Randy was going to give us the source code, hw would have done us before now. Another thing to be considered is the old adage Too Many Cooks Spoil The Broth. With all the egos in VP/FP, if there was an Open Source project, there would probably be so much in-fighting that it would stall out 15 minutes after the project ws launched.
 
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