Bark
Pinball Player
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2018
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- 2
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I have taken a first look, and a second look, at Pinball Creator. I want to discuss the flipper/ball interaction.
But to put it in perspective, I first want to point out the good stuff with PC.
At first, Pinball Creator looks great. It is very easy to get started and actually make a game, if you just take the time to follow the manual.
Never mind the bad English and the typos in the manual, that doesn't bother me at all. It has a very good chapter on how to get started, and there is a comprehensive second part.
On top of that, they have very good support in the Unity forum, where they answer all kinds of questions, from good questions about how to make specific things, all the way down to the bad questions, with polite answers along the lines of "you could do this and that... which is also possible to read about in the manual at page X". Great. Fantastic, really.
Ok, so here we go with the bad thing: Why why why is the interaction between the flippers and the ball so unnatural?
This question was raised in the Unity forum, and I quote "- - - ball tend to have too much angle in the opposite direction of the flippers thus not reacting like real pinballs or the other emulator do - - - Can the flippers be tweaked by the user to get similar emulation? If not, maybe are there plans to improve the flipper physics????"
The answer was, very untypical, just " - - - Pinball Creator may be different, but the flippers are accurate and the tables are fun to play, so we do not intend to change physics."
How is this possible? How can everything else be so good, and this one super-crucial super-central thing, be this bad, and no ambition to do anything about it?
If a pinball simulation behaves completely different from real pinball, then that is a show stopper. The interaction of the flippers and the ball is the defining feature of pinball games. It HAS to be accurate, or close to accurate. Hitting the ball at the exact right time, depending on ball position and speed, and what you aim for, is the one central skill you have as a player. Real-world pinball skills should be skills in simulated pinball. And more importantly, training in the simulator should not make you a worse real-world pinball player! Everything else can be a little off, but this one thing cannot!
It seems the guys (?) at Tropical Studio must certainly have played a lot of real-world pinball, otherwise there would be other things that were also bad. I haven't found any.
I believe they are not happy about the way the physics is now. I believe they have tried and given up. They couldn't figure it out. They know it is a problem, but they don't promise a solution. Hence, their answer "Pinball Creator may be different, but ..." They must know that proper flipper-ball-physics is not a matter of opinion.
Therefore, one of two things will happen: Either A) some people of us, in the small Pinball Creator community that actually exists, work together on how to tweak the physics of the flippers so it actually works, perhaps in cooperation with Tropical Studio but probably not, or B) Pinball Creator will continue to be just a toyish gimmick with a lot of features, not a tool to create actual pinball simulations.
So, can we gather enough force to do this? My questions for now are:
1. Is there any trace in the PC framework that uses the Unity physics system in a way that corresponds to the dual-coil flipper design?
2. Is the dual-coil at all what should be simulated?
3. How is this done in other frameworks?
4. Are there other crucial things bad with PC? Other show stoppers, that I have missed?
5. Am I actually wrong, or maybe the bad bad flipper/ball interaction is just there under specific circumstances, on certain platforms etc?
The fields where I could perhaps contribute in such an effort, would probably be with the math and physics, and programming in general. I majored in math and have worked decades with software development in C-like languages (not that you neccessarily are any good just because of schooling and work). Not so much Unity or C# specifically.
Anyone else interested in doing this? Say what you think.
Thank you.
But to put it in perspective, I first want to point out the good stuff with PC.
At first, Pinball Creator looks great. It is very easy to get started and actually make a game, if you just take the time to follow the manual.
Never mind the bad English and the typos in the manual, that doesn't bother me at all. It has a very good chapter on how to get started, and there is a comprehensive second part.
On top of that, they have very good support in the Unity forum, where they answer all kinds of questions, from good questions about how to make specific things, all the way down to the bad questions, with polite answers along the lines of "you could do this and that... which is also possible to read about in the manual at page X". Great. Fantastic, really.
Ok, so here we go with the bad thing: Why why why is the interaction between the flippers and the ball so unnatural?
This question was raised in the Unity forum, and I quote "- - - ball tend to have too much angle in the opposite direction of the flippers thus not reacting like real pinballs or the other emulator do - - - Can the flippers be tweaked by the user to get similar emulation? If not, maybe are there plans to improve the flipper physics????"
The answer was, very untypical, just " - - - Pinball Creator may be different, but the flippers are accurate and the tables are fun to play, so we do not intend to change physics."
How is this possible? How can everything else be so good, and this one super-crucial super-central thing, be this bad, and no ambition to do anything about it?
If a pinball simulation behaves completely different from real pinball, then that is a show stopper. The interaction of the flippers and the ball is the defining feature of pinball games. It HAS to be accurate, or close to accurate. Hitting the ball at the exact right time, depending on ball position and speed, and what you aim for, is the one central skill you have as a player. Real-world pinball skills should be skills in simulated pinball. And more importantly, training in the simulator should not make you a worse real-world pinball player! Everything else can be a little off, but this one thing cannot!
It seems the guys (?) at Tropical Studio must certainly have played a lot of real-world pinball, otherwise there would be other things that were also bad. I haven't found any.
I believe they are not happy about the way the physics is now. I believe they have tried and given up. They couldn't figure it out. They know it is a problem, but they don't promise a solution. Hence, their answer "Pinball Creator may be different, but ..." They must know that proper flipper-ball-physics is not a matter of opinion.
Therefore, one of two things will happen: Either A) some people of us, in the small Pinball Creator community that actually exists, work together on how to tweak the physics of the flippers so it actually works, perhaps in cooperation with Tropical Studio but probably not, or B) Pinball Creator will continue to be just a toyish gimmick with a lot of features, not a tool to create actual pinball simulations.
So, can we gather enough force to do this? My questions for now are:
1. Is there any trace in the PC framework that uses the Unity physics system in a way that corresponds to the dual-coil flipper design?
2. Is the dual-coil at all what should be simulated?
3. How is this done in other frameworks?
4. Are there other crucial things bad with PC? Other show stoppers, that I have missed?
5. Am I actually wrong, or maybe the bad bad flipper/ball interaction is just there under specific circumstances, on certain platforms etc?
The fields where I could perhaps contribute in such an effort, would probably be with the math and physics, and programming in general. I majored in math and have worked decades with software development in C-like languages (not that you neccessarily are any good just because of schooling and work). Not so much Unity or C# specifically.
Anyone else interested in doing this? Say what you think.
Thank you.