Are we our own serpents?

[Paratech]

There's the biblical story of paradise and how it was ruined by disobediance and the desire for forbidden fruit, and I sometimes think that same desire is here and other emulation sites...

I mean, we have the free programs to make as many pinball tables as we desire, including multiple versions of arcade accurate tables, or homebrews, and what goes on most of the time but politics...

Rather than enjoy the creative programs we have that allow us to enjoy free pinball on our PCs, there seems to be a lot of desire to get into flamewars, create tables based on shock value, and arguments that make no sense...

All these years we've had cool software that allows us to enjoy something we are having more and more trouble enjoying in "the real world" and it just seems like we want to ruin paradise, and I don't understand why...

If we focused on just enjoying the tables that exist and continuing development of new tables and dropped some of the politics, I think we'd be better off...

or is it just destiny that when you create paradise, the serpents will follow?

 

[StevOz]

Don't believe in destiny and it is also true that one mans heaven can be another mans hell, so paradice is a state of mind, not a place as such.

I think the serpents are the victims here.

 

[Paratech]

Somehow I don't feel much sympathy for serpents who want to spread chaos, particularly when it's just for shock value, but if you're idea of paradise is one with snakes spreading chaos, to each their own, cause it ain't paradise to me...

 

[StevOz]

But do the serpents spread the chaos?

Or is it those that choose to play with serpents?

 

[bob]

Sorry, but if I see a snake, I like to poke it with a stick. Does this mean I'm protecting paradise? Or does it just mean, I'm a prick?



BTW, Steve's posts are more entertaining if you read them aloud in the voice of Yoda. 8)

 

[PacDude]

Hmmmm, comparing paradise to stealing pinball tables (or do you own all your rom sets?).... I'm not sure about that one, Paratech.

BTW, in the Gnostic version of Chrsistianity, the serpent is the good guy, trying to wake up Adam & Eve from their state of IGNORANCE of the TRUTH and thus free them from the clutches of the Demi-Urge that created man's imperfect body (but not his spirit, which comes from the God Most High). It's interesting how Orthodoxy managed to turn that whole story on its head and make the serpent into the bad guy....

 

[elton]

I preferred PD when he was making tables LOL :)

 

[PacDude]

Well, if this site were about Pinball and not just petty bickering....

 

[StevOz]

This site is about pinball, oh there is also petty bickering and you have the freedom to engage in either here.

 

[Shockman]

'Oz, you are sounding great and powerful lately, why do you pick on me and have to be in my shit so?
I have a old "'Oz" second printing, but I think it was the same year as the first.

 

[Paratech]

Hmmmm, comparing paradise to stealing pinball tables (or do you own all your rom sets?).... I'm not sure about that one, Paratech.

BTW, in the Gnostic version of Chrsistianity, the serpent is the good guy, trying to wake up Adam & Eve from their state of IGNORANCE of the TRUTH and thus free them from the clutches of the Demi-Urge that created man's imperfect body (but not his spirit, which comes from the God Most High). It's interesting how Orthodoxy managed to turn that whole story on its head and make the serpent into the bad guy....

"Just imagine if this site were ACTUALLY about pinball and not just the Junkyard overflowing into all the other forums. Pshaw. "

This is what I envisioned, but if you envision pictures of aborted fetuses, "tributes" to 9/11, and other "strange" pinball tables be my guest...

No offense, but the Gnostic approach sounds like it was dreamed up by the hippies who made spanking child abuse...It sounds pretty and feelgood, but I have my doubts that every being that ever existed will be in Heaven, I have difficulty in imagining Judas, Hitler, and a number of other historical people in Heaven? I may be wrong, heck the "everyonew goes to Heaven eventually sounds great, its not like I'd wish ANYONE etrnal damnation, the worst I'd imagine wanting is someone to walk in my shoes for a while, I wouldn't wish any kind of eternal punishment on anyone, but I seriously doubt that Gnostic approach is remotely valid...but you're free to believe whatever faith you wish to follow...

And if you'd rather discuss politics, creating sick and perverted tables, and such that is your right, but I'd prefer to focus on enjoying pinball while we still can...

 

[highrise]

But do the serpents spread the chaos?

Or is it those that choose to play with serpents?

I don't know. Was it the Nazis that killed the Jews, or the people that stood by and said nothing in the hope that it would all go away?

 

[Paratech]

Well you could always make a table called kill the jews, post screenshots, and complain about your right to make tables with any theme until someone hosts it...

 

[PacDude]

What is funny is that Bizzle is actually on Paratech's side (I mean they're both Pro-Lifers, are they not?), so I find it amusing that he's trashing his table ideas when they seek to end abortion.

 

[Shockman]

No. I don't find that part amusing at all. Certainly not funny. I think I know what you meant though.

Abortions are like getting your teeth pulled because you did not want to brush them. Why even talk about getting them pulled? Brush them! it wont fucking happen then.

 

[destruk]

Well all these forums are quite boring for me at the moment. Going for nearly a year without any new release of core tools is depressing, with so many games waiting for new features/breakthroughs before they can be released. It's not by design, it's uncommon, which probably adds to all the friction amongst users - so for that I apologize. But it doesn't change this underwhelming atmosphere that we get to deal with. Ultracade's silence and lack of progress reports is also disappointing. And Black's refusal to let anyone know what they are working on is also again, disappointing. So in the void, where it stands now, we get to try to keep sanity by attacking each other on attitudes and work ethic, which kills the fun for me.

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I say 3 cheers for Destruk
A man without whom, the VP community would be much worse off
For obtaining the Roms
For makeing and enhancing Tables

We love you dude (in a manly, nonphysical way. of corse )

 

[destruk]

I don't think this is the time and place for cheering TMFP. It definately isn't me banging a drum to get support or kudos. 3 cheers for people who can get through this without quitting. It SUCKS, but what can you do about it.

 

[rpbizzle47]

What is funny is that Bizzle is actually on Paratech's side (I mean they're both Pro-Lifers, are they not?), so I find it amusing that he's trashing his table ideas when they seek to end abortion.

I'm very much against aboration. I would take an unwanted baby in a heart beat. It's a shame women have such power to choose who lives or not. I was born as a victim of rape, but I'm still thankful for being alive. I let it bother me when I was younger, but as time pasted, I grew stronger.

 

[PacDude]

Heh Shockman... the whole celibacy thing just doesn't seem to click with kids (or adults) these days. For some reason they REALLY want to stick their snakes in those dark caves. Raincoats aren't always effective, especially if they rip. It happens. It happened to my half-sister a year ago (she was 17 in high school and it was her first time and despite all the information out there, she thought she wouldn't get pregnant. She did. I'm now an Uncle for the 3rd time over... no abortion was never an issue there).

As for abortion in general, I don't expect anyone to see it like I do. I see the world out of time these days and I know decisions are made by many souls to choose their parents, etc.; it's not random. The future is already written, so-to-speak and so all these things are taken into account. That doesn't excuse people's choices, but I'm quite sure there aren't unborn baby souls wandering around in hell because they were never born to grow up to become saved, if that's the kind of thing some pro-life people worry about (yeah, some do). It just doesn't work that way. It's not even logical for it to work that way.

People will have to live with their decisions and their outcomes and how it affects others for better or worse.

Most guys don't really have a good understanding of the woman's perspective on the issue because guys can't get pregnant. To some degree, I almost think if abortion is going to be banned, it should be a women's only vote. It's their bodies and if it's going to be banned, it should be their decision to ban it. Otherwise, it will be contested until the end of time with the argument that men threw it over the top because it's VERY easy to be Anti-Choice when you're a guy and it doesn't personally affect you. (I say Anti-Choice because I see myself as Pro-Life, but not necessarily Anti-Choice as in I would never choose abortion, but I don't know that makes me qualified to judge others on the issue or make that choice for them as a ban on abortion DOES do for them).

 

[PcwaG]

Most guys don't really have a good understanding of the woman's perspective on the issue because guys can't get pregnant. To some degree, I almost think if abortion is going to be banned, it should be a women's only vote. It's their bodies and if it's going to be banned, it should be their decision to ban it. Otherwise, it will be contested until the end of time with the argument that men threw it over the top because it's VERY easy to be Anti-Choice when you're a guy and it doesn't personally affect you. (I say Anti-Choice because I see myself as Pro-Life, but not necessarily Anti-Choice as in I would never choose abortion, but I don't know that makes me qualified to judge others on the issue or make that choice for them as a ban on abortion DOES do for them).

Wow....

I'm suprised at you, PacDude.
You claim to be open minded, but this statement extremely close minded.
First, having been married, and helped my wife, before, during, and after the birth of both our children, I, as a man, have a very good perspective of what it's like being pregnant.
Ever hear of sympathy pains?
I experienced, at least, 97% of what my wife went through because of sympathy pains.
And before you say, "Well, your wife would say she hurts, then you would feel it."
Nope, no sir, not a chance.
Many times I would call my wife at work, ask her how she was, just to find out she had just vomited at the exact same time I did 20 minutes ago, and we were miles apart!
The only thing I didn't experience was the C-section for the child birth.
Second, the man helped in creating the fetus, it's his DNA, why does he have no say?
If the father is dedicated to having a child, why deny his vote? He's 50% responsible!
Lastly, Anti-Choice?
Really, PacDude, that statement is just extremely close minded.
If you are a guy who wants to take care of the child, how the hell does it not personally affect him?
Sorry for jumping your case on this, PacDude, but you gotta remember something about me:
I am a HouseHusband.
I take care of our two kids 24 hours a day, everyday.
I deal with every aspect of raising our children and more so!
I say, more so, because there are extremely biggoted people out there who think I should go get a job and put my kids in daycare.
Why?
Because I am a man........they see raising kids as woman's work because they think a man has no concept of what a woman has to deal with.
Which, when you think about it, is kinda like what you just said above, isn't it?
Can you be open-minded enough to see what I'm trying to tell ya here?

 

[highrise]

well, even though I'm not actually here anymore, all I can say is that to my mind there are two ways you can approach most of these things. On the one hand, you can make your own clear, moral argument which you think everyone else should follow. This is usually the pro-life argument and is often, though not always, based on religious teaching. As Pacdude has often pointed out, the difficulty with religious beliefs is that those who hold them with never, ever concede the argument, because in the end, it's a matter of faith, which by definition goes against the concept of proof.

On the other side, you have the more humanist perspective, where you say that you believe that every case is different, and should not be judged by religious teaching, but by the circumstances of the individuals. The people best placed to make such a judgement are often those who are directly affected. The argument goes that for any caring person, such a decision is incredibly difficult and traumatic, so they need good counsel.

People will never agree. As a result, the only solution is one which is quite common, where there is a limit that neither side is completely happy with.

 

[Paratech]

What is funny is that Bizzle is actually on Paratech's side (I mean they're both Pro-Lifers, are they not?), so I find it amusing that he's trashing his table ideas when they seek to end abortion.

I don't see making a table based on abortion being productive, useful for debate, or doing anything positive for the community.

I am pro life but I'm not necessarily for making abortion illegal, I'm more for changing the hearts and minds of women who would discard fetuses as though they were fat cells being liposuctioned away for their health...

I see the ability to make pinball games for people, for free, with whatever tools you can find as a "paradise" situation, we are free to make whatever we want, but yet some people just want to shock and offend others, and to poison the community with hate, those people I see as serpents spoiling paradise...

Now I can respect the fact you appear to be an anything goes kind of guy PacDude, but when you have such anarchy, it can pollute the community. I think people should consider the impact of their contributions to the community and ask themselves if it benefits or harms the community...

:idea:

 

[PacDude]

Really, Pcwag, your imagination aside, it's not your body that conceives that child, carries that child and gives birth to that child. Shooting sperm like a water gun is hardly the same as being pregnant or having to give birth or go through morning sickness. You NEVER have to wonder who the MOTHER is of a child on Jerry Springer because short of being unconscious for 9 months and some mystery guy taking the baby out and not telling the mother when she wakes up, it just dosn't happen whereas any number of blokes could be the father of a child if the woman is sleeping around.... THAT is the fundamental difference between a male and female when it comes to pregnancy. Joe Schmuck will never even know he's the father, let alone have "sympathy pains" if he screws some chick and moves on. And you're telling me Joe Schmuck should get to decide if that woman has to carry that child or not? What if Joe Schmuck is the woman's father too? Should she have to carry it then also? THAT is my problem with conservative views on Anti-Choice. It's not them that are pregnant so they don't give a crap what happens to the mother. The mother isn't cute and cudly like they imagine this unborn baby to be if it comes to term.

Then you've got the "what might have been" arguments. That kid MIGHT HAVE BEEN the next President of the U.S. That kid might have been the next savior of mankind! Now it'll never happen. I mean think of all the POTENTIAL babies there could be if I slept around like mad for the next 5 years!!! One might be the next King Poobah, after all! Does that mean I should be sleeping around??? How is that "potential" any different, though than a clump of 8 cells the next day? It's one step past imaginary or what (I'm referring to the morning after pill, not late term abortions here)?

They don't wonder if that kid might be the next Hitler or the next Jeffrey Dahmer. It doesn't matter. It's cute and cudley (and to quote one commercial about retarded children with Downe syndrome, "full of potential"). Full of potential to do what? Slobber all over itself for the next 80 years? Sorry, that's not the kind of life I'd want to live if I were going to be born with Downe Syndrome. I'd rather be aborted and come to Earth somewhere else as a normal baby. Oh wait. Fundamentalists don't BELIEVE such a thing happens! That's their entire PROBLEM with abortion. They think that baby never got to grow up. They don't THINK first that if they're actually religious they'd know it's the SOUL that matters, not the body and the soul is not so limited to just one body in one time frame. You've destroyed that soul's ONE and ONLY chance to experience LIFE as a HUMAN! Says fracking WHOM? They're fracking clueless.

So if you're going to give me an anti-abortion argument, at LEAST give me one that's not a total pile of steaming dog poo. "Respect ALL Life" is one I might go for if it weren't for the fact these same people are probably having a jolly good time eating chickens and cows and fish (those don't fall under "all life" ???) and maybe even enjoy hunting and fishing on the weekend while squashing the spider in their house underfoot as a nuiscance. So much for "all life".

Respect all HUMAN Life? When does a clump of 8 cells become human? People used to think "at birth" because until you're born, we don't even keep RECORDS of your existence on this planet. Hence, the thinking went that abortion is ok because they're unborn and I'm not sure any of us have memories of being in the womb. I can remember back to coming home from the hospital (disjointed memory followed by being around 1-2 years old), but not being born let alone BEFORE that. What horrible thing am I going to remember if I'm aborted? Nothing.

Well along comes science and shows Ultrasound and people see the little fetus sucking its thumb or whatever and suddenly, by George it's the next President of the United States in there! People have vivid imaginations. They don't KNOW when a soul enters the body and *I* think that's when REAL birth occurs, personally. Otherwise, without a soul, a human body is just a bunch of muscles and bones. And THAT part is quite unknowable.

So while I would not choose abortion, I don't lose tons of sleep over it either. Babies self-abort ALL THE TIME. It's called a miscarriage and most of them occur before the woman even knows she's pregnant. I don't see all these Pro-Life people staging fetus funerals for all those unknown miscarriages. So who killed that child? God? Why didn't God let that future President grow up!??! No, that's OK by those same people. It's not baby murder in their minds if God does it.

Now what about the non-religious? Are they even concerned??? Maybe they are. It probably depends on whether they imagine that kid growing up and being struck down in the prime of life or not while they think about it.

Me, I've got better things to worry about than the choices other people make. They are the ones making the choices and they are going to be the ones that have to live with it. Yeah, they're going to feel guilty as all hell if you go around telling them they murdered their unborn child. Big surprise there.

My cousin got pregnant at age 12 or so. Her parents forced her to get an abortion (they didn't think any 12 year old BABY should be having babies of its own, that it would be extremely traumatic, etc.). So who is the murderer there? My cousin? Her parents? Should I go knock on her door and tell her how guilty she should feel and that's she's a murderer and if I had my way I'd make it a felony and she would have done life in prison for it? Conservatives would probably say YES to that. Me, I don't have good answers.

Some people say copyright violations should be a felony with a 10 year prison sentence for EACH offense while stealing a REAL OBJECT (which causes an ACTUAL loss, not a perceived one of a COPY of bits) should carry a VASTLY lighter sentence. That makes ZERO sense to me, but what the fuck do I know? That's why I'd rather not judge while other people think their conscience is driving them to judge like crazy. So there you go.

 

[PcwaG]

Seeing as I am about to hit the sack, I'll just touch on a couple of things first, get the rest when I wake up.

Really, Pcwag, your imagination aside,

Imagination???

Take a good look around a do a little research.
http://www.nycityweddings.com/planning/articles/article.aspx?ID=224
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0206_060206_monkey_dads.html
http://pregnancytoday.com/reference/articles/malepg.htm

Sympathy pains, or Couvade, has been well studied and is considered not a mental state of mind but more of a hormonal situation which happens to the male.
By goodness, they even found it happening in male monkeys and I can't fathom them having a wild imagination.

it's not your body that conceives that child

Really?
I thought my body provided the sperm.
If it were not my sperm, there would be not be two lovely, little girls here at all.
Although, there is another definition of conceive and, that is, imagine.
Isn't that interesting?
Man and wife imagine a child, hmmmmm
Kind of an interesting analogy if you think about it.

I'll get to the rest of your comments tomorrow, I need some sleep.