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BAM rotationSpeedChart

Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
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I noticed your latest rotation speed chart goes up to 160% but this one does not appear to go that high. Is the 160% a mistake? If not a mistake, it seems odd it would go that high.
View attachment 21782 is my video?I assume so.

it seems to me that you say that, you have noticed something different, from your usual one in my video, right?, you are talking about the latest chart 160....mmmm..ok.but
I would like to be able to understand this detail too,even if I don't know anything about charts for the moment......what did you notice in my video?......but don't explain to me in charts terms, but what the fin(right-flipper) does? please

what I said is clear? or I must also put the writing in Italian?
 
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JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@JLou5641
ok, you are right "Lou" in this sense, Rav he explained to me that it is impossible to have only swing speed, is as I have always said too, that is speed and force are closely linked, as space-time in astrological terms.
so omega is the keystone......more omega= more speed, and obviously more strength.


just to understand me even better, please, then the Rotation chart,(maybe) emulate the "eos" of the coil?
or only ( acceleration of flipper bats )?
just a quick answer..
No, rotational charts can't emulate EOS actually, because FP not take account mass absorption beetween "fin" and ball, and also not take account of "fin" inertia.. In real, when EOS is active in the last degree of swing, that mean there is less Omega, the "fin" keep his speed and movement due to his inertia ( inertia is energy that the "fin" accumulate due to acceleration ). So even if you emulate eos with charts, which mean on last degrees of swing, Omega will fall down, in FP, fin speed strictly depend of omega and mass you set but not inertia, so if omega fall down, his speed reduce instantly like if there is no inertia.
@ravarcade make a code to add an EOS, we work on with @AnonTet to add some code to emulate absorption... It work, but it doesn't work like i want for now. Live catch are too easy. So we need ti search more.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
View attachment 21782 is my video?I assume so.

it seems to me that you say that, you have noticed something different, from your usual one in my video, right?, you are talking about the latest chart 160....mmmm..ok.but
I would like to be able to understand this detail too,even if I don't know anything about charts for the moment......what did you notice in my video?......but don't explain to me in chat terms, but what the fin(right-flipper) does? please

what I said is clear? or I must also put the writing in Italian?
i will explain you tomorrow ;)
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@Paolo Just a little and fast test on my workplace.. Just use 48° swing instead of 54 ( this is very very to high ). I use also my addam's physics xml. Old pinball was very very hard to control with the ball.. more than today.. But if you want to use 54, you need to reduce the last point of chart ( idx 12 ) wich is at 160% to what you want to make shot more wider as you want.. but you will have a chance to not get enough power to going on upper of the PF if you reduce it too much
IMG_20210913_131441.jpg
IMG_20210913_131420.jpg

 
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Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Site Supporters
Just use 48° swing instead of 54 ( this is very very to high ).
no problem,if is better!!
I use also my addam's physics xml
here I have some questions, I noticed mass at 80, less than 90 from me put, but gravity 9800, ok, these are the real values of a pinball, I know because they are mentioned by smoke, since before it was born bam.

I had tried them, but in my opinion a gravity, at that level was too much for me, that's why you see my balance 90/6500.

I see that you have reduced the damping 0.900, a little less than what I have set, but okay, if these changes work with your DF, it improves the gameplay .... I fully agree with your method:hail:.

Old pinball was very very hard to control with the ball.. more than today
are you referring to the real one? did you play the real one?

But if you want to use 54, you need to reduce the last point of chart ( idx 12 ) wich is at 160% to what you want to make shot more wider as you want.. but you will have a chance to not get enough power to going on upper of the PF if you reduce it too much
I have to study this well, to understand it better ....Edit: this part that you explain is the most difficult to understand for me,(but not so much) about idx: 12 .... before being able to modify this parameter (which concerns the charts) I have to actually understand what it does, and above all how it is done , to hypothesize a change .....


but, if it works well with swing 48, I have no reason to change it, instead if I see (when I have tried your version) something different, then, I just say then I can tell you my opinion about the new (your) gameplay ...... because it is clear to everyone that: a new gameplay here we are talking about guys .... it's crazy, too good !! I bow to your genius.

your video is great:yourock:, a question.(maybe) did you move the position of the RightFlipper?

we talk about changing the points of the curve of the flippers bats.... etc etc .... but I have to be able to understand it better

:cheers:
 
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JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
quick answer, i'm at work... Ball mass in real is 80gr. Slope for Electromecanical Pinball is only at 4°. Here you set it at 5.8° near like DOT pinball for casual player. Reduce your slope instead of decrease gravity. Try to set all Real value before "cheating" some of them to make fine tune. I have already test your value because lot of table use near the same value.. it's not realistic in my opinion. And so, to be sure to make something coherent with a minimum of cheating and hack, we need to use all real value as close as possible. This is my opinion.
 

Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Site Supporters
quick answer, i'm at work... Ball mass in real is 80gr. Slope for Electromecanical Pinball is only at 4°. Here you set it at 6.8° like DOT pinball for casual player. Reduce your slope instead of decrease gravity. Try to set all Real value before "cheating" some of them to make fine tune. I have already test your value because lot of table use near the same value.. it's not realistic in my opinion. And so, to be sure to make something coherent with a minimum of cheating and hack, we need to use all real value as close as possible. This is my opinion.
is 5.8.but I totally, fully agree,if your DF, with your charts, create a better gameplay than mine.that I think so, but I repeat I have to try the table, whenever you want and can.....I understand that you are at work, there is no rush.
 

Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
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we need to use all real value as close as possible.
You have the same Smoke theory, which I embraced, I didn't put 9800 gravity, only according to my gameplay......
I use the same XML of Smoke, which he uses and used for his tables ..... only something I changed

Now I will be the first to use your DF,and charts mode, and additional changes on the xml,(slope and whatever you did) on an "EM", if (as I think and hope) improve gameplay ..... but from your video it is already a proof of improvement.

I don't know if you saw it, but read the second page
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
i discover something wired with fin physics... There is a step... where with only a gap of 1 frame on flipper testing, trajectory is completly different... Shit!!!
 

hellrzr2k1

Pinball Wizard
no problem,if is better!!

here I have some questions, I noticed mass at 80, less than 90 from me put, but gravity 9800, ok, these are the real values of a pinball, I know because they are mentioned by smoke, since before it was born bam.

I had tried them, but in my opinion a gravity, at that level was too much for me, that's why you see my balance 90/6500.

I see that you have reduced the damping 0.900, a little less than what I have set, but okay, if these changes work with your DF, it improves the gameplay .... I fully agree with your method:hail:.


are you referring to the real one? did you play the real one?


I have to study this well, to understand it better ....Edit: this part that you explain is the most difficult to understand for me,(but not so much) about idx: 12 .... before being able to modify this parameter (which concerns the charts) I have to actually understand what it does, and above all how it is done , to hypothesize a change .....


but, if it works well with swing 48, I have no reason to change it, instead if I see (when I have tried your version) something different, then, I just say then I can tell you my opinion about the new (your) gameplay ...... because it is clear to everyone that: a new gameplay here we are talking about guys .... it's crazy, too good !! I bow to your genius.

your video is great:yourock:, a question.(maybe) did you move the position of the RightFlipper?

we talk about changing the points of the curve of the flippers bats.... etc etc .... but I have to be able to understand it better

:cheers:
Those values were a far fetched example of a table that would play crazy that Paolo was describing..
it wasnt serious
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
i discover something wired with fin physics... There is a step... where with only a gap of 1 frame on flipper testing, trajectory is completly different... Shit!!!
View attachment 21809
@Paolo, @ravarcade and all, i test other table, there is the same problem.... There is a place on "flipper / fin" where trajectory is totally different with only a small timing difference ( 1 fps ).. It's a hudge problem. We need to find why
 

Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Site Supporters
Those values were a far fetched example of a table that would play crazy that Paolo was describing..
yes, you are right, in fact I still think so, from my point of view, about a great gameplay .... based on a balanced physics

even if Smoke, it speaks of real gravity of a real table .... for me a gravity at 9800 and too much, in fact it did not work on this table of mine,making the table unplayable.

now according to the theory of JLou5641, it must be put in this value, but it is a factor that will influence this type of new DF + charts ... so it is to be evaluated,hellrzr2k1
it wasnt serious
I don't understand well, explain yourself better.
 

Paolo

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Site Supporters
i discover something wired with fin physics... There is a step... where with only a gap of 1 frame on flipper testing, trajectory is completly different... Shit!!!
Fantastic!!! I'm lucky.......as if to say, here it was too good for me, if there were no problems:trippy:
but it is also beautiful like this, because it will be very rewarding to be able to solve it, even if I thought that there could be no problems.

@JLou5641
obviously we are talking about a problem that I do not understand much .... I do not even know what to say, so I rely on your skills .... obviously that it was born under my table(in a way, I am who I am everywhere:bonk:) this makes me happy,I'm curious about any developments.

hope my english is clear, if there is any misunderstanding, please tell me
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
@Paolo, @ravarcade and all, i test other table, there is the same problem.... There is a place on "flipper / fin" where trajectory is totally different with only a small timing difference ( 1 fps ).. It's a hudge problem. We need to find why

Easy to explain:


Basically, FP physics engine's fault (again)
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
Easy to explain:

Hi @AnonTet , it's not the reason. There is a point were trajectory angle change drasticaly, even with lot of fps physics or not... It's like if shape of flipper is wrong.. Check the topic i have created
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
You should do own tests. If you display is 60Hz try to set 300 and you will see problem:
For most time you will get 5 physics steps per every drawed frame, but from time to time it will be 4 for one frame and 6 for next frame. You will see that odd irregularity.
With value like 296, you will end with 5 steps per frame and sometimes it will be 4 steps. Difference is smaller.

Press F9 ( if I recall correctly) to see the physics "lines". I'm pretty sure you'll see that issue happening precisely when the line changes (one of them). This all because the frames will be averaged and are not constant as explained. MAYBE you can't catch this on a g-sync/freesync monitor (i never noticed this) but it's something on the physics engine so, it won't matter what you see or not. It'll always happen.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
Press F9 ( if I recall correctly) to see the physics "lines". I'm pretty sure you'll see that issue happening precisely when the line changes (one of them). This all because the frames will be averaged and are not constant as explained. MAYBE you can't catch this on a g-sync/freesync monitor (i never noticed this) but it's something on the physics engine so, it won't matter what you see or not. It'll always happen.
i already test in with high end PC, or standard, with or without sync and on 60hz or 120hz screen, at 296 fps or 1000fps... all have the same result on exactly the same point on flipper bats.. watch the video... I do not talk about little difference.. but a huge difference that make you can't aim a big zone of the PF
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
I use blurbusters g-sync options on a 144Hz screen. Best thing i've found for flippers and I wish I could have a higher refresh monitor now :D

Note that can go above fps=600 in xml but FP will cap to 600 so there's really no point in doing it. There's a cap to how low you can go with fps parameter too.

I see the video. I'm asking you to do the same test with the frames calculation showing the debug as there might be a relation. Hopefully @ravarcade can identify this and with some luck it is fixable. But if i'm right, it isn't and we just have to accept it.
 

JLou5641

Pinball Wizard
@AnonTet, i make test frame by frame... This issue is only between point 0.8 and 0.9 on flipper... apart from this point, all along the flipper, there is no issue. So it not be a calculation physics issue, otherwise, we coul'd have it on different zone.. but on each test on different table and PC, it's always between point 0.8 and 0.9 where the gap is.
 

AnonTet

Pinball Hall of Famer
Site Supporters
Got it.

By the way, are you using rotational charts or mix of rotationcharts and _prehit code?

did you try using just one or the other? still happens? Just trying to help troubleshooting.
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
@AnonTet, i make test frame by frame... This issue is only between point 0.8 and 0.9 on flipper... apart from this point, all along the flipper, there is no issue. So it not be a calculation physics issue, otherwise, we coul'd have it on different zone.. but on each test on different table and PC, it's always between point 0.8 and 0.9 where the gap is.

Are you sure the cause is not your version of dynamic flippers? Your version appears to have points where sudden changes might occur. You might try the standard dynamic flippers.
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
i have test it with and without DF formulas... And now, i use constant omega value even with DF.
Rav changed the geometry of the tip of the flipper when he implemented DF. Maybe he added a problem. Try deleting all versions of the DF code. His geometry is only added when you use the DF code.
 
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