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Can The VP community be healed?

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
We've all heard, and many of us have said, that the VP community has gone downhill since it's inception five years ago. I've only been arounf for two years come fall, but I will say that it has changed. Now VP is my only experience with an online community, so I have some questions to pose. And of course I have some opinions and observations to, but I wonder if the community really needs healing.

Yes, there are problems and issues, but real life communityies have these too. And yes, we have some folks with huge egos which get bruised, and they don't always react the way may of us feel they should. But again, I see this is real life. So my main question is this, is an online community really much different than any other community, other than we don't always know as many personal details about each other?

All the elements of a standard community are here, I believe. Real, solid friendships and trust, honest dislike and mistrust, honesty and trickery, altruistic attitudes and selfish motives, power struggles and selfless and caring service, falling outs and patching things up. Maybe the one differing factor is that here we visit each other daily, where in real life we seldom see everyone in our community every single day. That along is what I think the problem is, we're available to one another every single day, so we might not value each other as much as we should.

Sure, we pat each other on the back when our tables are released. Some of us even team up with partners to work on projects. And once in a while a thread will be started that pays tribute to certain members who seem to be tireless in their dedication to not only making tables and helping with scripting problems, but have taken leadership roles. At VPFF, there is a thread like that about Destruk, and yes, he should be thanked for all he has done. But as he himself pointed out, he didn't do it alone. Not that he doesn't rate the praise, because he surely does.

So maybe the one thing missing from our online community is heart. A heart would allow us to ignore those who irritate the socks off of us. A heart would allow us to realize that we all have weaknesses, and that we need to show a little understanding and commpassion. And I'm not tlking about Kinsey now. There have been bash-o-ramas directed at other folks who may or may not have deserved it. And one continues.

Wrench has made more tables than anyone else, and he will admit that they aren't all, or maybe any, masterpieces among them. In a way he's even been blamed for IRP removing originals from their site. But that part is BS, I think. Originals weren't removed because of how many tables IRP hosted, but because of the volumn of downloads. So if Wrench's work is as horrible as some say, they would also not be very popular, and not be downloaded very often. But that isn't the issue. Wrench is simply doing what we all try to do, enjoy himself. So why knock him?

I've played some of his tables, and as with any other author, some I did like, alot, and some I didn't care for at all. But there are a few things I do like about Wrench. His release stories are wonderful and creative, the man is a talented writer. He has never, as far as I have seen, said anything against anyone, unless something was said to or about him first. I'll admit, I didn't really care for Wrench at first, and we joined VPF at the same time. But I do like him now, and not only because I find him entertaining. In my opinion, Wrench is a plus for VP.

Another problem I see, is that some of us aren't willing to meet the other person half way and yes, I can be that way sometimes. But I'm usually willing to change if I realize I'm wrong. A good example is PacDude, or simply Dude as I call him now. At first I couldn't stand him at all, even to the point of starting a hasty PM flame war with him, which if I hadn't had the sense to end, would have rightfully gotten me banned.

Now I won't lie and tell you Dude is my favorite person in VP. But I can tell you that I eventually sent him a PM apologizing for starting all that junk with him. And I did something else. I began to read his sometimes seemingly endless posts with an open mind. Yes, Dude is full of himself, and is an egoist, and won't let a topic drop, but a lot of what he says is right. And we get along well enough that when I asked for permission to experiment and maybe use one of his invisible ramps for one of my tables, he said yes.

Now don't think that I'm a saint, because those fames to Dude prove otherwise, and besides that's not my point. My point is that if I can see that I'm not always right, and that sometimes I misjudge people, maybe I'm not the only one in VP that needs to lighten up. So rather than focusing on what is wrong with VP, I'm like us all to reflect a bit and see what each of us might be able to do to make it better. And it doesn't take a group effort to start making improvements. I think we all need to try to improve our little corner of VP, since that's really the only part we have any influence over. Let's stop worrying about the past. Whatever Kinsey did or didn't do, that's history, and no amount of fussing about it can trun back the clock.

Do, I guess this all boils down to a pair of questions. How can our VP community be improved? What can and will you do yourself to help the community to improve? And since this is my post, I am imposing one rule. No dredging up old history. If we focus on tomorrow, next week, and next month, maybe we cn make a difference.

John
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Well actually thinking about it, I see no problem at all, as everything that has happened are all good signs of a healthy growing community.

Think about it, once there was one or two sites ruled and regulated by a few, now we have many more catering for all walks of life and a far more tolerant atmosphere, both here, there and elsewhere.

We are not wounded we are growing and evolving.

Viva La Difference!
 

druadic

Stay tuned.....
Site Supporters
How I feel

How I feel is simply this;

I ignore most of the stuff that happened in the past. All of it. I make these tables for me - it's why I do it but I'm caring enough to give them out for everyone to play with them. Why not anyway. If I just keep it to myself what's the point? Would be worthless to do so.

I've had so much work around this house I have very little time to even mess with VP much anymore. I have a couple of WIPs sitting here waiting for me to get to them but with such little time I do my best LATE NIGHTS to juggle something around.

I'll just make a game and release it. Not much else. Folks like it, great; folks don't like it then that's great too. Frankly, I just am on "kick back street" from now on.

As for TMOF - anything that needs to be done or something is needed from me I'll be thrilled to help. Not much else really.
 

Rodgz

Pinball Nudger
VP Community

Since I was banned from ***.com for being condesending (to whom or in what way was never specified), and since I an a new member here, I can really only speak for VPFF but it certainly doesn't that appear that VPFF is going downhill. Great tables are being produced, problem members are being handled in a fair manner and a great breadth of freedom is still being afforded members and significant issues are being discussed.

Again, I can't address issues at ***.com definitively but from what I hear the new leadership is achieving notable progress toward making that forum operate the way it once did.

Further, given the membership here so far, I have no reason to think that this site won't flourish.

So, is the Vp community dying? Clearly, in my opinion no, it isnt.

Rodgz
 

druadic

Stay tuned.....
Site Supporters
PcwaG

PcwaG said:
So, Will, does this mean we can forget the past between us?

PcwaG,

As far as I'm concerned what happened happened. You haven't heard any derrogatory remarks from me nor replies for the fact that I just am tired of what did happen. So, let's just let "bygones be bygones" and drop this and we can go on. I HATE to drudge up old stuff over and over again. I won't be around as much as I want to unfortunately but am doing my best to get one table out within the next few days since I am kind of tired of the entire VP scene. It's been over a month sicne I've really released anything.

Things happen - things get twisted out of context and things can be forgotten. There's one thing humans can do that other things / creatures cannot; "We can go on and ignore things that happened in the past."

Will
 

PcwaG

Gamer
Re: PcwaG

druadic said:
PcwaG,

As far as I'm concerned what happened happened. You haven't heard any derrogatory remarks from me nor replies for the fact that I just am tired of what did happen. So, let's just let "bygones be bygones" and drop this and we can go on. I HATE to drudge up old stuff over and over again. I won't be around as much as I want to unfortunately but am doing my best to get one table out within the next few days since I am kind of tired of the entire VP scene. It's been over a month sicne I've really released anything.

Things happen - things get twisted out of context and things can be forgotten. There's one thing humans can do that other things / creatures cannot; "We can go on and ignore things that happened in the past."

Will

I'm glad to see you say that, Will.
I, too, want to move on in this community and make it a bigger and better place.
Let us leave the past behind us.

To brighter and better tomorrows! :D
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Well, that certainly answers John's Question of. . . .

Can The VP community be healed?
 

brutus

Pinball Nudger
Re: VP Community

Rodgz said:
Since I was banned from ***.com for being condesending (to whom or in what way was never specified), and since I an a new member here, I can really only speak for VPFF but it certainly doesn't that appear that VPFF is going downhill. Great tables are being produced, problem members are being handled in a fair manner and a great breadth of freedom is still being afforded members and significant issues are being discussed.

Again, I can't address issues at ***.com definitively but from what I hear the new leadership is achieving notable progress toward making that forum operate the way it once did.

Further, given the membership here so far, I have no reason to think that this site won't flourish.

So, is the Vp community dying? Clearly, in my opinion no, it isnt.

Rodgz
=========
Agreed,
I tried to explain that the non VP forums where getting VP posts'
BANNED. :evil:
I hope to do better here!!!
:wink:
gogogo
 

wrenchien

Pinball Nudger
At least here, if anything goes south on the other forums, especialy shiva if they don't get enough support. we have here as a refuge to voice our opinions.

As for me, it's been my belief that there were many other authors, like briggs and tii and sphere , who had pretty popular tables there that also were big in size and scope.. should they also be razzed cause their originals were popular and the bandwidth really skyrocketed? or praised for their hard work though they haven't been seen lately?

Ultimately, irpinball just didn't plan ahead when they featured everyone's original work no matter who it was.. or expect all the original pins , all of us, not just me, have made in the past to have been so many....And it's a shame. Not just for the authors, but for the site, for one source of their varied pin ideas, original ones in which neither roms nor playfields of ancient pins by companies were ever needed, or for the whole idea that just cause one could recreate a pinball, that he could instead make something new and original ,whether it ruled or stank.

Perhaps someday, when broadband becomes the norm and the economy finally recovers from terror fears and telemarketer abuse, there will be truly a place where the original pin ideas can surface again. Just when again.. is blowing in the wind.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
The original Table availibility issue must be addressed as a "community", I must disagree with your IRP suggestions,....This was inevitable! :(

There was Over 250 Gigs downloaded per month at IRP with the originals...

an incredible, inevitable number... :sad4:

A solution does not exist... :-x, yet.............. :(
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
The only solution I see is a centralized VPF donation pot. People send in donations and it would be divided up to help the community where it is needed most. Of course the community would need to settle it's differences and have representatives from all sites on a "Board of Directors for VP"

VP NEEDS sites like IRPinball and VPFF and Shiva's and TMOF and VPF working together in harmony and not in war. We NEED each other to survive. I think we now have a place where *everyone* can fit in and we need to support VP as a whole and not seperately.

And I also wish for World Peace and enough food to feed everyone on the planet, and someday I may get my wish.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
to address john's point:

i agree with what bob said tonite in a chat... basically too many viewpoints on whether there's a problem or not, and if so, what the problem is, and even if you agree to that point agreeing on HOW to treat it is simply too much...

maybe if the scene had a more robust user base then enough people who agreed on something could get together, but the way i see it there are really only about 100 regular members of this scene- 200 if you stretch it, tops... certain peoples' eternal claims that there are 20,000-30,000 users in the scene have always been nonsense- the vast majority of the user accounts are simply created for download/access purposes, or to be able to browse some posts a little, or often just to post the occasional question to a problem they are having then to -vamoose-

in short, there are very few people wholly dedicated to this scene who give into it more than they get... WHY this is so is perhaps a question that none of us will ever be able to answer, or at least to satisfy our fellow users on...
 

druadic

Stay tuned.....
Site Supporters
Nicolas, what can you do?

nicolas.b said:
to address john's point:

maybe if the scene had a more robust user base then enough people who agreed on something could get together, but the way i see it there are really only about 100 regular members of this scene- 200 if you stretch it, tops... certain peoples' eternal claims that there are 20,000-30,000 users in the scene have always been nonsense- the vast majority of the user accounts are simply created for download/access purposes, or to be able to browse some posts a little, or often just to post the occasional question to a problem they are having then to -vamoose-quote]

Nicolas,

Simply put it's this - I can't really call it laziness. Or can I??? People just take and take and VERY FEW folks even give back to FEEDBACK or the community in a nutshell. You're right as there is only about 200 folks that give back or even make tables at the current state of VP. It's sad yes, BUT I look at it this way - too many cooks spoil the broth. I've been the ONLY coin-op flipperless author to continue with flipperless coin-ops. I only like to do real machines really even though I have quite a few homebrews laying around here that probably will never get finished since there are so many bloody coin-op flipperless machines.

The other thing that really sets many authors back is the LACK of feedback. I sit there and think HOW LONG it took me to redraw Zipper Skill in four days and only got three posts for feedback. Sad to say the least but at least I have three fans who are nice enough to post to me. John (tiltjlp), Starman and IceWarm are the three who were kind enough to post. Feedback is VERY important for many authors for the reason is if a table needs to be updated or the author just needs to know something. I sit here and think Zipper Skill was done in vain - no feedback shows that it wasn't worth my time to even attempt to make. Yep, that's how I feel and I won't be posting my work at VPF ever again. John or JPH can do it but I won't post over there again. Not worth my time.

Anyway, I would LOVE to know if feedback is important to all other flipperless authors. If so, PLEASE let me kno via PM or email and give me a detailed description of WHY feedback is important to you and why. I will compile this information and post about it. This might help to understand WHY folks refuse to post to a new release or whatever is making this problem happen. To me, feedback is VERY important.

Let me know folks PLEASE. The more info I have, the faster I can post and perhaps find a solution to the problem. Let's see what I can do to help to fix it???

Thanks for letting me rant on, but this is a subject that needs to be addressed. The more info the better. Thanks guys and thanks for posting.

Will / druadic

PS: Think a poll would work better than a PM or email? Let me know.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
yeah will, it might be interesting to explore that issue... i don't know if anyone's ever going to reach any kind of definitive or even enlightening answer, but it couldn't hurt to try...

one question which your post brings up for me tho is: regardless of the site name (MOF), is this forums really restricted to talk of flipperless only?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Interesting comments

I've gotten some heat for my original post, which I put on all for forums, but it did what I hoped it would, it got folks talking. Some folks have said everything is perfect, but any community can be improved. The more we discuss things the better, and the best part is acknowledging that we are really a few hundred that the countless thousands on some sites.

Mitchell wondered why we didn't have more members. Besides being new, and while Everyone is welcome here, I'd rather end up with fewer members who are involved, rather than only !/2 of 1/2 of 1/2 of 1 % being active. A closer knit forum whit most everyone involved will make us feel like we belong, which can only make our corner of VP better. So thanks for all your posts.

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
nicolas.b said:
yeah will, it might be interesting to explore that issue... i don't know if anyone's ever going to reach any kind of definitive or even enlightening answer, but it couldn't hurt to try...

one question which your post brings up for me tho is: regardless of the site name (MOF), is this forums really restricted to talk of flipperless only?

Nic, look at the top of the forum, it says, Magic Pinball Forums :) Now look at some of the forum categories

Flippered Discussions
Just as the name implies, discuss anything about flippered tables.

Flippered WIP & Releases
A place for our flippered friends to post about their work. ; )

Site Suggestions
Make a suggestion about Magic Forums, Chat or The Magic Of Flipperless site.

Real Live Machines!
Discuss the ins and outs, and strategies, of real, breathingl machines.

Commercial Sims
Discuss your favorite, or least favorite PC pin simulations.

The most important one is Site Suggestions JPH will listen to any suggestion.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
bob said:
nicolas.b said:
Flippered WIP & Releases
A place for our flippered friends to post about their work. ; )

Real Live Machines!
Discuss the ins and outs, and strategies, of real, breathingl machines.
i guess i'm still confused, bob... you have one section for seals and fish, another for iron lung devices...?

you people seem to have some strange priorities around here... :roll:
 

brutus

Pinball Nudger
Give and take

Yes that seems to be the problem.When i started to find Pinball forums,it wasn't long for me to get the idea,as i have tried hard to do.There are too many fly by nighters,drop by for a quick fix and no hangeroners.
Too many www users live in fear.No email,no id,WHY this fear ???
Stan in Mississauga,Ont.Canada
:D
Happy 4th to my buddies in the USA.
 

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