Williams Solved Dealer's Choice (Williams, 1973) Issues

Sonora70

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Bid Deal
Dealers Choice Issues......Fixed!

I'm about ready to make this one a parts machine. Got this machine for my brother and trying to help him get it fixed. I have spent hours on this issue. I can get it to reset, although sometimes it will reset to game over, but normally if I hit the start button again it will do a full reset and put the ball into play.

If I try to play a 1 player game it will continue on through the different players. Can't get it to stay on player 1. One thing I have learned/noticed is that if I only hit a 10 point switch (whether it scores 50 pts or just 10) it will stay on player 1 as it should. If however I hit other switches (100 or 1000 point switches) it advances to the next player. It will do this until it gets to player 4 then it will stay on player 4. UNLESS, I just hit a 10 point switch then it will reset back to player 1 or game over if on the 5th ball. I have tried to trace the schematic several time and have cleaned and adjusted the reset relay, outhole relay, I checked the eos switch on the ball count unit. I have also cleaned and double checked the coin unit, ball count unit, and the player unit. I just keep going in circles.

I can't see in the schematic what the 100 point and the 1000 point relays have in common with making the machine advance to the next player. I'm to the point now of adjusting things and creating bigger issues that I have to go back and resolve.

Another thing I have noticed is that when the game does not do a full reset the ball count unit is not resetting for some reason. Again, if I hit the start button again it will generally go ahead and reset at which time the ball count strongly resets.

Sorry for so much print.....really getting tired and frustrated with this one. I have searched the previous posts several times and nothing seems to match this problem.
 
Last edited:
Solution
Fixed!!!

I went back through my schematic/notes and decided to check/clean switch 5C on the score motor. It was a "tricky" switch to find related to my problem (on the schematic) being connected to the outhole relay. Problem is now solved....machine resets correctly and ball release relay fires sending the ball into the shooting lane. Leaving switch 6b open also corrects the problem with the player unit switching players during a 1 player game (or switching correctly during multi player games). Thanks for all the help and tips. Although very frustrated and lots of time spent trying to get this one figured out, I have learned much.
too many things go thru the player up unit. now with a crazy scoring issue , do you have another williams 4 player to swap the player up unit wiper disc?
 
too many things go thru the player up unit. now with a crazy scoring issue , do you have another williams 4 player to swap the player up unit wiper disc?

I have a Big Deal, just the wiper disc? I can try that easy enough this evening.
 
too many things go thru the player up unit. now with a crazy scoring issue , do you have another williams 4 player to swap the player up unit wiper disc?

Is it possible to have the wiper disc on upside down? It looks the same all the way around but.......
 
My guess is a switch on score motor or relay is closed at the wrong time allowing a pulse to advance player unit at the wrong time
 
Not there yet....

too many things go thru the player up unit. now with a crazy scoring issue , do you have another williams 4 player to swap the player up unit wiper disc?

Pinballdaveh,
Tried the wiper disc off of my Big Deal, no change...However, I did notice a couple issues related to the problem (I believe according to the schematic).

First, the ball index is not pulling as it should when points are scored. I traced back in the schematic and cleaned and adjusted the switch on the ball count relay and this tilt relay. It works at random, if I push it-- it will hold. Same action no matter if its a 10, 100, or 1000 point switch. According to the schematic the ball count unit needs the index relay pulled in order to fire which should send a signal to the player unit reset through the EOS switch on the ball count unit.

And....when the ball index is pulled it will at random not fire the ball count unit. What I have learned is that many times if I keep the outhole switch closed a bit longer it will sometimes fire the ball count unit. Could this be an issue with a switch on the score motor?

For some reason, I now have a dead replay button so I'm having to reset by manually pressing the reset relay. Another new development is that many times the game will not reset, it finishes in game over. I believe this is a possible result of the ball count unit not resetting at startup. I'm creating more issues as I go.....Any help much appreciated!!!!
 
im not sure about the disc if its put on 180 degs off if it can cause a problem. is there any manuf. paint marks for ist player position on both machines? usually no paint marks it doesnt matter what position installed. temporary trying the disc installed in either position shouldnt cause any problems.
 
im not sure about the disc if its put on 180 degs off if it can cause a problem. is there any manuf. paint marks for ist player position on both machines? usually no paint marks it doesnt matter what position installed. temporary trying the disc installed in either position shouldnt cause any problems.

I actually tried the disc both ways......there is a different pattern. If on incorrectly it will make the game go to game over.
 
yea you have some score motor switches to check. index cam bottom 3 switches , cam 5c , cam3c and NC switch on extra ball relay. replay relay , then coin relay need to pull in before reset relay does.
 
yea you have some score motor switches to check. index cam bottom 3 switches , cam 5c , cam3c and NC switch on extra ball relay. replay relay , then coin relay need to pull in before reset relay does.

Will do, thanks. Will report back tomorrow.
 
yea you have some score motor switches to check. index cam bottom 3 switches , cam 5c , cam3c and NC switch on extra ball relay. replay relay , then coin relay need to pull in before reset relay does.

Pinballdaveh,
I pulled the motor board and inspected all mentioned switches. No change, still not getting the ball count unit pulsed everytime. The ball index relay does seem to be working correctly.

Interesting find: After inspecting the switches mentioned I then did a quick inspection of the other switches on the score motor and adjusted. Switch 6b was way out of adjustment. I adjusted accordingly. When I started the machine it would not complete a reset, instead it acted as it did before when I posted the Dealers Choice Outhole question a week or so ago. I reread the post and you indicated that switch 6b should be NC. When I checked it this time it was open again, so I adjusted it closed as you indicated it should be in that post. The machine resets but the outhole was acting strange(fluttering). I then looked at my schematic. The schematic shows switch 6b as NO. In fact, when I adjusted it to NC to get the machine to reset, I noticed it never opens.

Could this be part of my problem? It appears that 6b needs to be NC to get the machine to reset, however according to the schematic it should be NO, which would indicate a problem somewhere else getting it to reset? I'm wondering if all this is related?
 
can you post pics of cam 6 in its low and high dwells to show whats going on with the switches. you can also move the score motor service jack to off and manually turn cams to check switch functions with machine on. (caution when doing this a coil can stay pulled in on a stopped cam position) move jack back to on when completed.
 
can you post pics of cam 6 in its low and high dwells to show whats going on with the switches. you can also move the score motor service jack to off and manually turn cams to check switch functions with machine on. (caution when doing this a coil can stay pulled in on a stopped cam position) move jack back to on when completed.

Will do. I'll get a picture this evening after work.
 
switch pictures

can you post pics of cam 6 in its low and high dwells to show whats going on with the switches. you can also move the score motor service jack to off and manually turn cams to check switch functions with machine on. (caution when doing this a coil can stay pulled in on a stopped cam position) move jack back to on when completed.

These are the pictures of cam 6 set as the schematic indicates (NO). Again, the problem now is that the pin will not finish a reset (during a game or at start up). It doesn't appear that the outhole relay is staying energized long enough because during the cycle if I give it a little help by keeping it closed longer it will reset.
 

Attachments

  • Dealers Choice 6b(1).jpg
    Dealers Choice 6b(1).jpg
    2 MB · Views: 255
  • Dealers Choice 6b(2).jpg
    Dealers Choice 6b(2).jpg
    1.9 MB · Views: 247
it looks like the cam follower blade on cam 6 is wrong. it doesnt line up with the other stacks. it looks like cam 6 will fire before cam 5 will . cam 6 should fire just after cam 5 does. somebody changed this not knowing the effect on the timing. the proper cam follower should be installed to line up with the others. compare its position to a proper working machine. PBR is prob a good source for this part.
 
it looks like the cam follower blade on cam 6 is wrong. it doesnt line up with the other stacks. it looks like cam 6 will fire before cam 5 will . cam 6 should fire just after cam 5 does. somebody changed this not knowing the effect on the timing. the proper cam follower should be installed to line up with the others. compare its position to a proper working machine. PBR is prob a good source for this part.

I see what you mean. I took a look, this is the picture from above. The stack doesn't match. I will order another. I did a test and noticed cam 5 does fire before cam 6. It looks as though they should probably fire at the same time?
 
more pictures

More pictures.......
I inspected the switch stacks and removed stack 6. Under the switches are 3 holes in the frame so that the stack could be moved. I moved it back even with the other stacks and tested the machine. Still the same problem. It begins the reset process but then doesn't complete. Neither the relay banks reset nor the ball release coil. Everything else appears to be fine. If I hold the outhole relay closed it will completes the reset as it should.
 

Attachments

  • Dealers Choice 6 stack.jpg
    Dealers Choice 6 stack.jpg
    3.5 MB · Views: 252
  • Dealers Choice 6 stack(2).jpg
    Dealers Choice 6 stack(2).jpg
    3.5 MB · Views: 264
Last edited:
more info....

I tried to capture a video of the outhole relay in the reset process but my phone captures it as an mp4 and the site will not allow it to be uploaded. The difference I notice after moving the stack is that every time the stack drops on the cam the outhole relay moves, it only moved every other drop before. The outhole relay is just barely/quickly pulling. Doesn't appear to be making a good solid pull.

Thanks for hanging with me on this!
 
i forgot to mention that sometimes there is other stack switch screw mounting holes. cams 5 and 6 should almost fire at the same time like you said. the correct cam follower along with the stack screwed down in the correct holes and with the long blades downward tension and switches gapped properly should correct the problem.
 
Parts are ordered from PBR, i will report back when they arrive and installed.
 
Still not there....

i forgot to mention that sometimes there is other stack switch screw mounting holes. cams 5 and 6 should almost fire at the same time like you said. the correct cam follower along with the stack screwed down in the correct holes and with the long blades downward tension and switches gapped properly should correct the problem.

The new cam follower cam in today. I installed, checked gaps, etc...

I still cannot get it to finish the reset to the point that it kicks the ball into play. If I release (open) the trough switch the motor stops running and the playfield switches become active, however when the ball drains it will continue to run without kicking the ball out.

The only way I can get it to reset is to close the NO switch on 6b. It will reset and kick the ball into play as it should, but I'm wondering if this switch remaining closed is what keeps it from staying on player 1 when playing a single player game? I feel like I need to get the reset issue resolved before I can adequately move forward.

I reset my Williams Big Deal and observed looking for differences as they are both Williams 4 players. The outhole relays stays pulled(energized) much longer to allow the Big Deal to reset. The outhole relay on the Dealer's Choice only pulses. As mentioned before if I hold the outhole relay or arch across the "in series" blades it will reset and activate the ball release. What could be causing the outhole relay to release or what is not holding it closed long enough? Thanks in advance for any advice......
 
Fixed!!!

I went back through my schematic/notes and decided to check/clean switch 5C on the score motor. It was a "tricky" switch to find related to my problem (on the schematic) being connected to the outhole relay. Problem is now solved....machine resets correctly and ball release relay fires sending the ball into the shooting lane. Leaving switch 6b open also corrects the problem with the player unit switching players during a 1 player game (or switching correctly during multi player games). Thanks for all the help and tips. Although very frustrated and lots of time spent trying to get this one figured out, I have learned much.
 
Solution
if you understand the timed circuits of the score motor. you are into advanced schematic reading. congrats on getting your projects playable.:appl:
 
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