Flipper Big Issue for trajectory, error and weird

[GeorgeH]

honestly, since using the DF, I have always noticed that sometimes the ball goes in another direction than the one I try to give, but I never wanted to open a discussion, because I thought that somehow physics also has to do with it (xml) but since i started understanding physics in xml,I think as I have said on other occasions, the physical engine of FP , it's obsolete (with respect speaking),so it can be the cause of a lot of negative things in FP, I always talk about physics and gameplay

I have experienced this problem also. It is most likely the reason why it is difficult to hit center shots also.

@ravarcade Thanks for the feedback. It looks like increasing frame rate is the best fix. I tried increasing it to 512 for a table I posted several years ago and many people complained about stuttering. Everyone that complained had lower end PCs. So I dropped the FPS back down to 296 to keep everyone happy. Maybe enough people have upgraded their PCs so we can go higher now. Still yet, be prepared for complains about stuttering.

 

[JLou5641]

Personally, on my old i5-4460 it work perfect

 

[Popotte]

Personally, on my old i5-4460 it work perfect

I agree with you. With my old I3 (Sandy Bridge), I can do that without problem (OK, not for the heavyest tables).
And with my I5 Ivy Bridge, no problem.
So...

 

[Paolo]

Conclusion: there is no fix for this. You may only increase FPS (700 is max)... but with different FPS you have completly different physics.

Many thanks Rav......your explanation is clear.

@JLou5641 @GeorgeH

As it is clear to me that many things are related and intertwined with each other.
Newton physics engine "artifacts".
Ball is in motion
that sometimes Physics engine selects "cylinder" sometimes when it should select flat surface.
more, more, more,etc ,etc, etc!!

Now a question arises spontaneously, since perhaps a solution could be to increase the frames up to the limit of 700, and that this leads to a difference in the physics .... WOW what kind of physics should we create now?

If for now I speak for myself .... it took me years to try to understand physics through xml,that, moreover, there is still to be learned, now with a 700 frame table, do I have to call merlin to get help? not to mention the pc resources,stuttering, I believe, would not be the only problems

What's your PC spec @Paolo ?

win 7 professional 64 bit,motherboard socket 775, 12 mega cache

last driver,no one for this cards!

I know it's a low pc, when I can change pc........

 

[JLou5641]

Many thanks Rav......your explanation is clear.

@JLou5641 @GeorgeH

As it is clear to me that many things are related and intertwined with each other.
Newton physics engine "artifacts".
Ball is in motion
that sometimes Physics engine selects "cylinder" sometimes when it should select flat surface.
more, more, more,etc ,etc, etc!!

Now a question arises spontaneously, since perhaps a solution could be to increase the frames up to the limit of 700, and that this leads to a difference in the physics .... WOW what kind of physics should we create now?

If for now I speak for myself .... it took me years to try to understand physics through xml, and that there is not yet to learn, now with a 700 frame table, do I have to call merlin to get help? not to mention the pc resources,stuttering, I believe, would not be the only problems


View attachment 21851

win 7 professional 64 bit,motherboard socket 775, 12 mega cache

View attachment 21852last driver,no one for this cards!

I know it's a low pc, when I can change pc........

Arrrfff... You have a very low performance PC.... Maybe you can find a good config at a very good price on https://www.subito.it (Subito.it).. 2 years ago, i buy my full set with CPU i5 4460 + 8Go DDR3 + GTX 1060 less than 400€

 

[AnonTet]

@JLou5641

Here's a quote from Rav's answer to my question about FPS parameter:

Look at physics engine docs:
NewtonDynamics Wiki
In short engine clamp fps value to range 20 < fpx < 600. So, if you say "720" it is still 600.
Second thing: some params in xml file are values appied to object in single physics engine step.
For example if you set strength of kicker is (F) 100 and fps is set to (fps)296, so ball will get amoung of energy passed : E = F / FPS = 100 * 1/296.
If you change fps to 600, amoung of energy will be 2 time smaller (ball will move slower).
That rull apply only to some params.
Sorry, but i will not dig thru all params and try to give you all math behing it. Even if you adjust all params for change of FPS you will end with different behave for different fps.

So you see, I've tested before and like I said, it is capped. You do feel the difference going higher and I agree with you that current (and even not so current PC's) can handle this - I personally had 0 problems as far as I can remember. But many, and i'm fairly sure that there are many, users that still are on slower PC's (and I mean CPU wise) that might not be capable of handling higher FPS numbers.

The real problem though is that you can't (in an apparent and easy way) change older tables to act nicely just by changing that and proff is, pick any older table, and apply current physics xml template and you'll find yourself adjusting objects on the table more often than not.

/edit

for some reason, it seems i did not see the latest posts here before posting this. In any case, i'm all for upping the FPS to the max on new releases at least. I already did it locally ever since I got the above answer from Rav because, like I said, you can feel the difference.

@Paolo

Just to make it clear, it is not 700 it is 600FPS. Rav pressed the wrong key in is post.

 

[JLou5641]

Yep @AnonTet . I update BOP table which we work on, I will update Adam's Family. It's closer to that we can see on Papa Pinball Video in term of speed and boucing for ex. Adam's Family is harder... Which is hard in reality.

 

[JLou5641]

For those who are CPU limited, In my opinion, i prefer to play with the old Light rendering sytem than the new which take lot of ressource too.. I prefer to have good physics and play with little less good graphics than the opposite.

 

[GeorgeH]

For those who are CPU limited, In my opinion, i prefer to play with the old Light rendering sytem than the new which take lot of ressource too.. I prefer to have good physics and play with little less good graphics than the opposite.

On all the tables that I have modded, I always provide lighting option for "FP Original" in addition to "New Renderer".

When I use 600 FPS, I will probably warn uses of low end PCs about possible poor performance and provide directions to change it to 296 if they have problems. Too bad that FPS doesn't function on the xBAM.PhysicsXML or I could provide an option to switch it when the game starts.

 

[JLou5641]

On all the tables that I have modded, I always provide lighting option for "FP Original" in addition to "New Renderer".

When I use 600 FPS, I will probably warn uses of low end PCs about possible poor performance and provide directions to change it to 296 if they have problems. Too bad that FPS doesn't function on the xBAM.PhysicsXML or I could provide an option to switch it when the game starts.

You mean you can make option to call a different physics XML?

 

[Paolo]

I have experienced this problem also. It is most likely the reason why it is difficult to hit center shots also.

@GeorgeH
why is my quote not visible?


what do you mean,with this? it is difficult to hit the center shots also
do you mean sending the ball to the center? or hit the ball in the center of the flippers?


George...we are probably talking about two different things, I have never had problems with central shots, indeed for me it is the opposite, I on 100 flippers shots(right or left), I send 80 to the center, and only 20. on right or left, it depends on which flipper you are using .in fact in Straight Flush, is this the problem, I can not take the left-up lane, I always send the ball in the bumpers

probably you ... you are saying it now (in red), and maybe @AnonTet also said (in spectrum) that you can't get the ball to the center ..... but I, have never had this problem.

in my opinion, what happens to you two (ball not in center) is because of how to configure the fins, swing, strength, starting angle, etc. not to mention the xml

 

[GeorgeH]

@GeorgeH
why is my quote not visible?
View attachment 21858

I can see it on my screen although I am using the "Shades of Blue" that has a dark background so there is more contrast between the text and background.

what do you mean,with this? it is difficult to hit the center shots also
do you mean sending the ball to the center? or hit the ball in the center of the flippers?


George...we are probably talking about two different things, I have never had problems with central shots, indeed for me it is the opposite, I on 100 flippers shots(right or left), I send 80 to the center, and only 20. on right or left, it depends on which flipper you are using .in fact in Straight Flush, is this the problem, I can not take the left-up lane, I always send the ball in the bumpers

probably you ... you are saying it now (in red), and maybe @AnonTet also said (in spectrum) that you can't get the ball to the center ..... but I, have never had this problem.

in my opinion, what happens to you two (ball not in center) is because of how to configure the fins, swing, strength, starting angle, etc. not to mention the xml

It has been my experience that hitting objects in the center of the table are difficult to hit. The saucer on "Attach from Mars" and the center ramp on "Twilight Zone" are difficult to hit. It is true that the adjustments you mention can help. JLou's rotation speed chart can help also.

 

[GeorgeH]

You mean you can make option to call a different physics XML?

Well sort of. I was able to switch some of the XML parameters on "Twilight Zone". The White ball on the real table is made of ceramic so it is lighter. I was able to duplicate this by changing the parameters for the ball and table slope using an odd method. I initially loaded the XML into the script as a comment. Then I changed it using the xBAM.PhysicsXML option. The problem with xBAM.PhysicsXML is that many of the parameters listed don't work (you can have entries listed for some of the parameters but they do not do anything). It basically only works for the parameters listed on the "Physics Tweaks" screen in BAM. That is the reason I loaded the XML as comment first which makes it load all the parameters in the XML and then I changed the parameters for the ball and table slope using xBAM.PhysicsXML. You do have to load the entire XML in the BAM.PhysicsXML option even though some of the parameters don't work. You will find the script on "Twilight Zone" looks odd but it works. I used the same method on TZ to provide an option on the menu to change the table slope. The trick is you have to load all the parameters in the XML first as comment then use the BAM.PhysicsXML option to make changes that has the exact same XML with the few changes that you want. I think Rav provided some script options to change a few of the specific parameters in the XML but not the ones I needed so I used this method.

The FPS parameter is not listed on the Physics Tweaks menu so it can't be changed by the BAM.PhysicsXML option.

 

[JLou5641]

I don't find information about leftXoff, leftYoff etc etc in XML. Which effect have those parameter?

 

[AnonTet]

IF I remember correctly it was used to offset the flipper in the respective axis of the parameter. Used before (probably still now because of C&P) with a value of 1500 potatos, pixels ... i have no idea :D to help with the top center shots.

Personally, I have them set at 0 as it feels artificial and if I recall correctly it actually move the flipper.

 

[GeorgeH]

I don't find information about leftXoff, leftYoff etc etc in XML. Which effect have those parameter?

I am not completely sure but AnonTet might be right. I do know if you don't set the values to 0, the ball will sink through the flippers when you cradle the ball. I found the old bounce control values didn't work when you set leftXoff, leftYoff etc to 0 when leftYoff and rightYoff used to be 1500. So I ended up creating a new values for bounce control. You can read more about it here:

https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/threads/jaws-ultimate-pro-1-08-how-can-we-fix-this-graphic-bug-with-the-flipper-finger.19651/ (Help - JAWS (Ultimate Pro 1.08) how can we fix this graphic bug with the flipper finger ?)

Be sure to manually advance the video 17 minutes and 40 seconds in the above link to get to the point where problem occurs.

 

[JLou5641]

Thanks all.
I never have this issue, but i use native Bouncing, not DF boucing script method, maybe it's due to that?

 

[AnonTet]

I am not completely sure but AnonTet might be right. I do know if you don't set the values to 0, the ball will sink through the flippers when you cradle the ball. I found the old bounce control values didn't work when you set leftXoff, leftYoff etc to 0 when leftYoff and rightYoff used to be 1500. So I ended up creating a new values for bounce control. You can read more about it here:

https://pinballnirvana.com/forums/threads/jaws-ultimate-pro-1-08-how-can-we-fix-this-graphic-bug-with-the-flipper-finger.19651/ (Help - JAWS (Ultimate Pro 1.08) how can we fix this graphic bug with the flipper finger ?)

Be sure to manually advance the video 17 minutes and 40 seconds in the above link to get to the point where problem occurs.

Forgot about that sink through the flippers issue. I remember get it once or twice but maybe because BAM keeps being updated or maybe i'm just lucky i set those to 0 and forget about them. No need to have one more awkward/obscure parameter messing up physics, especially when clearly it is not needed (for me).

/edit
@GeorgeH

Edit: leftXoff, leftYoff, leftZoff, rightXoff, rightYoff, rightZoff - I asked Rafal what these are and he said he didn't know but to set them all to 0 or the ball will sink through the flippers when it is cradled.

From a post by here at PN. I knew using those values was the problem :D

 

[GeorgeH]

Thanks all.
I never have this issue, but i use native Bouncing, not DF boucing script method, maybe it's due to that?

Bounce Control is not the cause of the ball sinking issue but an effect. The values for leftXoff, leftYoff, leftZoff, rightXoff, rightYoff, rightZoff are what causes the problem. It is just that when all these values are set to "0", everything changes in the bounce control. I am not sure if all these values are set to "0" in the "Future Pinball.exe". If they aren't "0", then the ball will sink through the flippers without the XML.

 

[JLou5641]

Hi @ravarcade , hi All,

By working on Velocity corrector, I discover in Debug mode that flipper swing angle has lot of "Over Swing". For exemple, I set Swing Angle at 48°, but in fact, it has 4° of "over swing", and keep contact with ball to 52°.... Is there a way to simply change or delete this? or need to do this with a script.
4° of "ver swing" is very too high.. In fact, there is not really an extra swing on an pinball, it's more like a displacement of all mechanism than and extra swing angle.

My template with Velocity Corrector is ready. But I will make 2 other template before post it:

- One with coefficient adding like: "ball.OutVelocity.X * coefficient" and no more Dynamic Omega ( my preference )
- One with absolute value adding like: "ball.OutVelocity.X + value" and no more Dynamic Omega
- One with coefficient adding + Dynamic Omega conbined with.

I also discover that even with "ball.OutVelocity.X = 0", ball trajectory is not vertical as we coul'd think... And you can ever make shoot with angle

 

[JLou5641]

Hello Again,

@ravarcade , I discovered that trajectory issue could not be due only to geometrie, but also due to "missing point". There is trajectory issue also in the "flat zone" of flipper. I make test with custom shape collision too, with two small radius for base and tip, for having the longest "flat zone, but it change nothing. I take 2 screenshot, and each time there is a "gap" for trajectory, there is a missing points in one frame difference... in one frame it jump directly from 0.7 to 0.74.. But before and after, there is no jump on every frame until base or tip are reach.
Is it because those point are between two frame exactly at this time?