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FP, is that Future or Fantasy Pinball?

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I've been back now seven months, and the day I returned, I read a comment about Future Pinball. Since then, I've read opinions and debates and speculation about Black's project. He seems to have assembled a good and loyal beta-hype team. I have to wonder though, how long can Lio and Leon maintain the current level of hype? Just maybe they should have waited to launch the hype until they had an ACTUAL release date in sight.

The VPM/Roms lurker/leecher/warez group is already beginning to wear a bit thin, with their belief that anything prior to 2001 isn't really pinball. I'm just curious, is it possible to surf the web on a cell phone from grade school?

What bothers me the most is that Black actually has some authors not working on tables, simply because they're waiting for FP. They could have one long wait, possibly Forever. He has turned his back on the community at least once, and maybe twice. But now he promises to sell a new emulator that from what I have seen will have a moving camera, which I feel is totally useless, and harsh lighting and reflective glare that will detract and distract from the enjoyment of the game. We'll have to wait until it's in own hands to see if the "user controls" can lesser those effects.

Don't get me wrong, I have no feelings of loyalty to Randy either. He left the community hanging for two years without onw word about what his plans for VP were. There are some who believe the only reason Randy popped up suddenly was because of Black's FP project. So no, I haven't and won't take sides. All I'm trying to say is that we have VP here and now, Today, so why not use it if you have ideas for a table? Why sit on your hands and do nothing at all until FP sees the light of day, if it ever does.

I've been around for over 3 1/2 years, and every day there has been infighting and backbiting of some sort. Neither Randy nor Black has a track record that inspires loyalty. So at least I'm going to keep working on my tables. Not as a sign of support for Randy nor a sign against Black. But simply because I still enjoy working on tables, and I have a program Here and Now that lets me do that.

Now I'm pretty sure that if Leon reads this he'll consider it an attack on both Black and the beta-hype team, but it isn't. I just don't see what the excitement is, but Randy and Black have led us down blind alleys before. Every time Randy gifts us a new update it could be the last one. And every time Black's beta-hype team makes a promise in Black's name, it could very well be empty.

John
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
I am going to disagree with you on this

You say that Leo and lio have been hyping FP. I haven’t seen this. Neither of them have started a thread about FP, all they have done is answer peoples questions ( as well as they can, as neither is actually coding the program)

Lio, IMHO, has conducted him self in a most cordial manner and has never stooped to the slanging matches that have gone on.
yes John, I know you have an issue, but apart from that one time (deleting your post) has Lio done anything else wrong?)

Leo has never started any argument, but he is not going to stand by when others post misinformation.
I feel that he would probably more forth coming about FP if he knew more.


Future Pinball will be ready when it is ready, I am sure that Blacks real job is of more importance than FP
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Since I wasn't around when the first stirring of Future Pinball started, I can't cite chapter and verse. All I can do is point to the How About An Update Of FP thread began by Bob at VPF. At first there was a lot of speculation and idle chatter, but once the Easter dealine was missed, that's when the hyping began, in the form of Leon's SS.

Most everyone ooh'ed and aah'ed, but a few folks, including me, simply weren't that impressed. So Lio started with PR and damage control, directed at me. He mentioned the camera with movable angle, and that it would be possible to pan down and view the legs of the pin. Now cosmetics don't interest me in the least, as I said at VPF, in reply to a post by Hans, reposted here:

@tiltjohn:
A german proverb says:
"You cant teach an old dog new tricks"

..but let me say you just have seen static screenshots of FP.
Roaming with the camera along the coindoor and buttons
down to the chromed leg-levelers in realtime is
something different.

Yes, we sound amazed about FP like
Microsoft-Salesman about their new windows,
but we dont get paid for that.

Being a beta-tester of FP is a two-sided coin.

Its so boring. I search and search and find no bugs.
Spending three nights to think about one-two new features that
i can write up for Chris. Then i go to work, happy having
a new idea for FP and reading a message from Lio like:
"Hey; theres a new beta on the FTP, did you seen the new
features ?"

You download it; try it; and it blows you away.
The idea you had is already done, but always a tad to imense
better than yourselfs idea. Thats really frustrating.

An my rply, misdirected at Lio instead or Hans:

I'm very much an old dog, and I don't care much for change. As for moveable camera angles, whoopie. I'll want to play FP tables, not take a virtual reality tour. I can understand the beta team being excited and even hyping FP, that's what you should be doing. But I wasn't born yesterday, and fluff and puff simply don't impress me. As I have said before, but you seem to choose to ignore or at least discuss other issues with me. I hope FP sees the light of day, and I hope it's even 10% as good as the hype, but I won't be holding my breath.

I don't care if the camera will be able to pan down to the legs of the table. That feature won't make a game I play more fun, nor a table I create better in any way. So if you want to impress me, don't try to do it with trick mirrors or flash and smoke that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. I wonder if the hype began too soon? The Easter release isn't happening, and it might be a long wait until FP is released, if at all. After a while hype and promises will wear thin even for the multitude of glad handers.

Now, it probably won't matter with my minor skills if I use VP or FP, a bagtelle will still be a bagatelle, and the few folks who like them will DL them. The authors I feel bad for are those with better than average skills who could take a gimickless FP and use it to make some really wonderful tables. So why not can the hype until a REAL releases date can be met. That way fewer people will be disappionted. So I'll simply avoid this thread with all it's unfulfilled speculation. Somebody let me know IF and when FP is released.

Now, as I've said, I don't feel a lot of loyalty toward or from Randy or Black, nor do I feel any hostility toward either fellow. I simply am saying that VP is here right now, and we've all been using it. Why stop using it UNTIL we all have FP on our computers, with support files, so that we can give it a try. That would be like me tossing out my 15" monitor right now because I might be getting a 19" monitor before long. Of course it's not the same thing, but it's no less of a lark. Why stop making tables and games, which you enjoy doing, until or IF there finally is, or isn't, a FP release.

That's my basic question. Why wait for something that some far is nothing more than one SS and a lot of promises. Promises and reality are not always the same. And TMFP, I wasn't saying that Leon, Lio, and or Hans are doing anything wrong, since the thread is in the proper forum. I'm more puzzled with the response of some of my fellow authors. But even more annoying are those who say FP is doomed because it won't support VPM/Roms. All I'm saying is let's wait until FP is a fact before we applaud or damn it.
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
but in my view, the FP team have only responded to our questions

bob asked for an update, we get an update

many people asked for screen shots, Leo gives us screenshots. leo has made many great VP tables so there is little wonder that he can make something nice and shiny in FP, what we saw could have (and has been ) been done on VP, but I bet it took less time on FP due to FP having posts already modeled

From what I have read ramps are not yet included, and alot of people like to include ramps


But autours delaying while waiting for FP?
Maybe they are still waiting for VP to work bug free, it is working better than 12 months ago, but it is frustrating to lose 30 minutes work
 

Greywolf

Perfectionist Bastard
Ah.

TMFP: You are forgetting the Basic Microsore Paradigm:

"Save Early, Save Often."

Visual Pinball is no exception.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I agree that some authors are waiting/hoping for VP to be bug free, but I've never seen any software that is bug free. I hope but doubt that FP will be released bug free either, although that would be a wonderful and delightful suprise. And again, even if they are simply answering questions, I still feel that FP is being hyped, but as I have said several times, that in iteslf is not a bad thing. My comments are really directed at everyone getting all excited when we've yet to see the program itself.

I hope FP is every bit as good as Black and team want it to be. I especially hope that an auto-script feature is included, since I am code-disfunctional. My main point is simply that since we have VP here and now, why give up on it when we have no idea when FP will be available. Many promised features for VP never came to light, the same may prove true for FP. But if FP is the reason Randy has resumed working on VP, then we have FP and Black to thank for that. Competition is almost always a good thing. Personally, I hope there are no ramps in FP, but I guess that's a bit selfish on my part.

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
I am kind of waiting for FP to make new tables... I have only been updating my old tables lately. FP looks really cool to me and I am extremely interested in it and I'm hoping that they not only release a decent pin editor, but they continue to work on it after the initial release.

I'm thrilled that they are charging for it, I have never found Black to be a likable guy and he has always only been interested in making money and I have never felt as if he even possesses a passion for pinball. If he could make money working on Jumpman, then that's what he'd be working on. So, if I can give him a few bucks and get a pinball editor, then we both get what we want... More power to him, I say.

Lio is one of the nicest and most giving guys in the community, I don't believe for one minute that he would ever do anything to hurt anyone and he seems to be perfect as an admin at VPF. When/if he leaves, the community will suffer, because he is very level headed and never appears to get rattled or pissed at anyone. He's just great!

Leo is one of the most loyal people I have ever met virtually, he worships Randy and VP. If he thought Black was disrespecting Randy or ripping Randy off, he would be the first one to stand up and knock Black out. Leo is an A-Ok guy in my book even if I do get under his skin once in awhile. Leo is also the most consistent opinion giver in the community, he never changes his position on anything, he is a constant... Right or wrong, his convictions are his convictions and you have to respect someone who never waivers from his beliefs. Don't tell him, but I have always admired Leo :) even if he is an asshole ;)

Hans, the tester, I really don't know anything about Hans, he has been mostly invisible to me.

BTW, there isn't an actual object called ramp in FP yet, but you can create a wall that is truly 3-D, meaning like a pyramid, so you can create ramps right now using FP.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
You best get a new computer soon then bob because FP will not run on your current rig, though you'll more then likely have plenty of time to consider. As for FP being any easier to use then VP, I very much doubt it. It uses very similar visual basic scripting to code the pinball and this has always been the most difficult aspect of creating these virtual pinballs.

As for FP itself, well the only thing I think it may actually add is more realistic physics all the rest is pretty much just WOW factor...
 

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tiltjlp

PN co-founder
If that's another example of FP, I'll need a seeing-eye ball to play the tables. Lights and shadows are nice, up to a point. But when you can't see the playfield, does it matter how nice things look? I have enough problems seeing most tables now, so if things are only going to get darker and even more shadowy, I guess that leaves me, and a lot of other folks, out of the so-called new game in town.

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
StevOz said:
You best get a new computer soon then bob because FP will not run on your current rig

I'm ready for a new computer anyway :) my current 1.3 GHz and 256MB Ram is just waiting for a reason to be passed on to my daughter.

I can't say I'm totally impressed with FP's screenshots, but then I wouldn't use FP to create a photo realistic table anyway. I just want some decent looking premade objects, like the posts I've seen, to use. I just never wanted to use decals and reels for that stuff in VP, too much work to make them look and feel right.

The shadows on StevOz's screenshot look ridiculous to me, even if it was a photo of a real table. I believe in a light source coming from one direction like in a painting, not in 3 or 4 directions like a football stadium. I like tables that have an artsy or sketchy look, sort of the same reason that pinball tables use artwork instead of true life photography as graphics. I mean a sketch of Dolly Parton looks much better than a photo of Dolly would on a Pinball table.

I think FP will let me control this stuff anyway, if not, I can add my own shadows :) Besides, I won't be publicly releasing FP tables anyway... Not unless I get a complimentary copy of it, or if someone actually asks me publicly for the download link of a table. :) I say screw the leeches :wink: No more Mr Nice Guy! :wink:

LOL
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I'm all for anything that leaves the leeches out in the cold, and by leeches I mean anyone who never posts to any forum unless it's to 1, ask where roms are, 2, ask someone to make them a table, 3, ask when Stern's latest will be VPM'd, or 4, to voice a negative opinion about VPM/EMs/Flipperless/what have you. We have some non-authors who I feel contribute in other ways. For example, TMFP has about the droolest humor I've encountered in a long time, and I think he's hard at work on his 1st table.

Just wondering Bob, are you willing to trade tables with selected fellow authors, such as two of my bagatelle for one of your add-a-balls? Or will you simply make tables for your own enjoyment? I'm not finding fault, since if you make it, it's yours to do with as you please. I simply wanted to know if I need to begin stockpiling bagatelle, or maybe even a few gobble holes :p, for a little variety. Or will you trade them for White Castle coupons?

I just hope that we don't end up with a lot of authors who stop releasing tables, and even leave the forums, because of FP or buggy ole VP. We've lost a lot of good folks in just the time I've been around, and I'd hate to lose more, especially Bob. Who am I going to be able to rib about gobble holes if you leave?

John
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
ah....the great mythical leech, more the fool you.

Now where did you leech those sounds and graphics from bob?

They sure as hell aint original compositions.

I for one will never forget my fellow man or screw him either, you may call them what you like nigger, spook, leech or honky. It will never change the fact that we will always be the lesser for the exclusion of any.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Hehe, I did include 2 Winking Smilies and a LOL...

Sometimes you guys are too serious.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Serious? Are you kidding me? Do you really think that I'd trade you two of my Masterpiece Bgatelle for one of your Insult Specials that tell me exactly how lousy a player I am? I guess I will have to make that GobbleHoleBagatelle I threatened you with a while back, just to show you how much I like you, pal. Hey, thanks for your FAQ submission. Would have been funnier if you had signed somebody elses name, like Pacdude or TMFP.

But I really did see a post by the Dude saying that he's really down and might be scarce for a while himself. Is somebody pumping in some rotten egg gas?

John
 
G

Guest

Guest
First up a thank-you to Posty and Bob (asshole?? I'll let you have that one yank ;) ) for going in to bat for me.

John I sometimes wonder what planet you are on. Hype????
If I was "stuffing" FP down everyones neck left and right all the time then you could say the term "hype" would fit.
HOWEVER...... As Posty already pointed out I have done NOTHING more than answer the questions asked of me about FP to the best of my knowledge.
If I hadn't of answered any of the questions I guess you would have been here spouting off about what an ignorant pig I was for ignoring the questions about FP.
So, you don't like FP? Well no one is forcing you to.
Stay with VP and enjoy. NOBODY is going to take VP away from you.

A totally untrue and cheap "backstab" John and you wonder why I don't frequent this forum.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo, maybe Hype is a poor choice of words, because I don't mean it in a bad way at all. I agree that you and others on the FP team are simply providing informatioin that has been requested. I don't have any axes to grind about FP, and hope that it lives up to all the promise it seems to offer. I plan on giving it a try once it's released, my main concern is that some authors, especially Bob, have said that they will wait for FP before working on new tables. And since there is no release date set for FP, I simply don't see that stance as being benefical to anyone, although everyone is free to take a wait and see approach it that's what the decide.

John
 
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