Future Pinball is out!

kristian

Pinball Wizard
My first impression:

Slowest program I've ever tried.

My specs are low: AMD 1300... I didn't even except it to run at full speed but I get even worse framerate than some CHD games I've played on MAME. Or then there's something seriously wrong with my settings...

Reminds me of PurePinball a lot... I don't want to say anything before I get it running (at least somehow)...
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I have the same problem Kristian, it walks on my computer, instead of running. Sci-Fi played in very slow motion, and the response time for the flippers was horrible. I'm hoping a friend's son can stop over and tweak my system, but it'll take a lot of tweaking.

I'm glad it's out, since it might spark more interest in pinball, but I don't want to see VP suffer because of FP. With 4 years invested in learning VP and making tables with it, I don't plan on turning my back of VP. Besides, with VPM not supported in FP, VP will continue no matter how well FP is accepted. I don't see why both VP and FP can't co-exist.

John
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
I wouldn't mention anything because according to their site, it supports windows 2000/XP with directX8, a Pentium or Athlon processor at 1800mhz or faster, and a geforce4mx/radeon card. Because my pc meets (slightly exceeds) those requirements, I was hoping it would run faster. I have w2k, dx9, sempron 2800 (benchmarks at 2000mhz), geforce fx5500, and I get about the same framerate with both maximum and minimum rendering settings. Even deleting all textures and sounds, and ornaments from the editor, I still get 12-17fps.
Hopefully they will post the true system requirements to get a playable 60fps game so I will know what I have to buy.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
destruk said:
Anyone besides shiva and me notice that Sci Fi is Trigon?

I wouldn't be surprised, but I really couldn't tell from all the neon glowing effects. So far I'm not that impressed, maybe if I can get it to run faster I will be. They seem to have put in a lot of effort to make it look nice, but it still comes down to playability. Oh well, time will sort things out maybe.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I am not bothering, all I want to know is nice to get the co-designer credit. :)

Oh yeah, BTW, I was told this by a few people before I looked at it. I was under the impression that sci-fi was a different table design, in fact, I haver the screenshot. Image my surprise.

Such a shame very very disappointed, but not surprised. Anyone have any doubts now why I turned my back on the community, why I refuse to share ANY of my stuff anymore?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
shiva said:
I am not bothering, all I want to know is nice to get the co-designer credit. :)

Oh yeah, BTW, I was told this by a few people before I looked at it. I was under the impression that sci-fi was a different table design, in fact, I haver the screenshot. Image my surprise.

Such a shame very very disappointed, but not surprised. Anyone have any doubts now why I turned my back on the community, why I refuse to share ANY of my stuff anymore?

And of course they denied it, but that's to be expected. Maybe it's OK since they changed the name, and added the green neon glow. This will only splinter the "so balled" community even more, with a FP camp and a VP camp, which is a shame. I really expect a lot of the folks with fast enough systems to run FP to ignore VP, since most of them probably already have all the VPM tables.

I can only sit and wait to see if the next version will run faster than 12fps for me. But even if I eventually can run FP, I won't be making any tables with it, since for one thing I can barely see the script on the black background, and secondly, I'll have to spend 15 minutes removing all the tiny little pieces from the table to start a flipperless game. VP has been good enough for me up till now, and nothing has happened to change that.

John
 
G

Guest

Guest
tiltjlp said:
shiva said:
I am not bothering, all I want to know is nice to get the co-designer credit. :)

Oh yeah, BTW, I was told this by a few people before I looked at it. I was under the impression that sci-fi was a different table design, in fact, I haver the screenshot. Image my surprise.

Such a shame very very disappointed, but not surprised. Anyone have any doubts now why I turned my back on the community, why I refuse to share ANY of my stuff anymore?

And of course they denied it, but that's to be expected. Maybe it's OK since they changed the name, and added the green neon glow. This will only splinter the "so balled" community even more, with a FP camp and a VP camp, which is a shame. I really expect a lot of the folks with fast enough systems to run FP to ignore VP, since most of them probably already have all the VPM tables.

I can only sit and wait to see if the next version will run faster than 12fps for me. But even if I eventually can run FP, I won't be making any tables with it, since for one thing I can barely see the script on the black background, and secondly, I'll have to spend 15 minutes removing all the tiny little pieces from the table to start a flipperless game. VP has been good enough for me up till now, and nothing has happened to change that.

John

I'm not going to argue with you guys.
Believe what you want to.
However Sci-Fi Classic is similar not the same as Trigon.
Trigon is similar not the same as any one of a dozen Bally pins from the early 80's so, what is the point?
If there is a "division" it will be caused by frivolous stuff like this.
Let it go. It's so petty.

John here's a news flash for ya.
You need a better system if you want better performance out of FP.
1.8 Ghz CPU and a GF4 MX minimum. See above post for what I have and you will get a better idea (i hope)
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
similar, I guess a lawyer might say that, depending on what side he is on. :)

On the other hand, I don't think anyone is that stupid either. I never dled FP, it's very hard to base a opinion on a screenshot, but it was very easy for me to look at the blueprint posted there though.

No honestly, It's pretty much a compliment if it's true isn't it? Especially after the success of the game, and after I said no to the idea of Trigon in FP, all the power to them. They can say whatever they want, but I'm pretty sure there was a copy of my table open at one time or another during the process. I did leave a message there, I believe I was very clear in that message, and I was very nice about it as well, considering I could have pointed out some things, like previous episodes, when the shoe was on the other foot.

I also don't like one other thing. People feel free to attack me all they want, they can shout me down, try and discredit my work, but when a friend who has the balls to stand up for me has that happen, then I will do what's right and stand up for him.

It's called respect BTW. I think this is a case of the objections being made because of a lack of it?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo Wanker said:
tiltjlp said:
John here's a news flash for ya.
You need a better system if you want better performance out of FP.
1.8 Ghz CPU and a GF4 MX minimum. See above post for what I have and you will get a better idea (i hope)

Yeah, Black was nice enough to spell out the specific card I need at FP, but seems to think the rest of the specs will do. A card I might be able to save up for, but never a new computer. This was was a gift, and gifts like this don't happen very often. I knew going in it would be ify about my system, so it's no big surprise.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Well, seeing FP seems awfully similar to VP in many regards, I can't say I'm too surprised that an "original" table included with it is awfully similar to an existing VP original they apparently wanted to port.

This reminds me of the Ghostbusters theme and Huey Lewis's "I Want A New Drug" song. They asked them to make one for Ghostbusters and they turned them down so Ray Parker Jr. created Ghostbusters which sounds more than similar in many respects (speed it up a bit and see how it compares). I guess the courts agreed with Huey Lewis since they won the case and got the royalties.

Regardless, since it's too slow to run here and doesn't work on Win98SE, I won't even bother to go to the site. I'll leave it to people like Leo Wanker to suck up to Black and tell people how crappy their computers are and that they should lay out thousands of dollars to use FP to play a table that is awfully similar to one on VP.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
My goodness. I actually agree with PD not just once, but three times in one day. I guess I am in a really good mood as well today, being able to actually see my son for the first time in 5 months will do that.
I'm actually around here for another reason, but he's playing games right now, and I have a bit of time.
The way I look at this, it's not that FP is such a hog, it may be because there wasn't enough proper information included about the frame rates, or more likely, a key piece of information was left out by mistake.I guess it's tough on stuff like that, as you don't think about it, especially with the settings on your computer, as it is usually quite different than everyone else's.
It was rated at 1, now it's 1.8 ghz, but still, most computers bought in the last year should be able to handle that.
Look, the way I see this, if two of the best people to ever step in the community want to release a game, and it looks awefully similar to another very well known, and very highly rated game at that, I would rather it be those two, as opposed to someone who wouldn't have those type of skills.
I didn't have those skills either, and it took 3 years to even get the game like that, so maybe, one of these years when I can afford a proper computer with a proper video card, I will be able to enjoy that game just like everyone else is doing. They couldn't do F1 in FP anyway, so weather or not what the intention was, it's still great no matter what.
It's even nicer to see Stein back as well. I and a lot of other people thought we would never see a game from him again, now we have, and as far as I am concerned, this community has chased too many of the truely talented people away as it is.
The only problem I would have, and to use the same example as PD just made, is if there is money involved. There isn't, the game is free, will continue to be free as far as I am concerned, and that's no problem.
People may point out that it may be okay anyway, with Taito getting away with it for years, but then Taito was brazil based as well, where there are no copyright laws to enforce. I'm pretty sure Williams or Bally would have done something about it if they could, but that is also business to business as well. This is not the case, but it is a bit about respect at least.
I think people can understand my feelings on this, considering the past history, but I am not the orge people think I am either. I stand up for what I think is right, and I also stand up for other people as well, just like I have done years ago when the entire NS episode was happening. People may disagree with my stance sometimes, but that's the way it is, especially now. I'm not gonna change, but at least I am consistant. :)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I've looked at both Trigon and Sci-Fi, and there aren't enough differences to ever convince me that they should have at least asked your permission. But they probably figured you'd say no, so way ask. But what really convinced me that it's a rip off is that Leon didn't argue the point with us. Now, has anyone ever known Leon NOT to argue a point when he thought he was right?

But what I would be upset about if it was one of my tables, is that it looks cheap and cheesy with all that green neon glow. Leon's Oh Boy wip looks a thousand times better, IMNSHO. It'll be interesting to see how Black handles not only the bug reports, which are to be expected with any new release, but what will surely be a growing Wish List. It'll be fun watching jsut how FP evolves over the next few years.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I said no to trigon. I wasn't asked by them, but I was asked by someone with the access so to speak, so I knew. I am just disappointed is all, and chalk it up to people being a bit more compedative than they should be, or maybe not understanding that no matter who did a version, it wouldn't be the same, or better for that fact. There's only one person who could do that, and that's me

Would have been nice to have been at least told, maybe even a thankyou, but that's the respect thing.
I was a bit surprised as well, I received a couple emails from people that told me this before I even seen the shot, but what I said before still stands. The sad thing about this is not only am I so use to it by now, but the way it was done, or not done, that bothered me the most.

Not a very good start, and it has hurt a friendship.

BTW, I wouldn't have said no anyway.

I think between the combination of emails, PM's, and the fact that my greatest enemies are not exactly rushing in here speaks for itself. I didn't want the permission thing, I just would have liked to be told, it's pretty apparent where the inspiration came from, it's just way to close in general to feel otherwise. Would have made me very happy, especially at a time when I need good news.

I guess maybe my reputation, or lack of it now, strikes again, not that it makes any kind of difference.

As far as I am concerned though, my game is still better. :D
(I haven't played FP, kind of useless anyway with a card, even with other posts around)

tiltjlp said:
I've looked at both Trigon and Sci-Fi, and there aren't enough differences to ever convince me that they should have at least asked your permission. But they probably figured you'd say no, so way ask. But what really convinced me that it's a rip off is that Leon didn't argue the point with us. Now, has anyone ever known Leon NOT to argue a point when he thought he was right?

But what I would be upset about if it was one of my tables, is that it looks cheap and cheesy with all that green neon glow. Leon's Oh Boy wip looks a thousand times better, IMNSHO. It'll be interesting to see how Black handles not only the bug reports, which are to be expected with any new release, but what will surely be a growing Wish List. It'll be fun watching jsut how FP evolves over the next few years.

John
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
Retrocade, or whoever it is, said that they plan to use FP in a future product. If this table makes it into the product, then what? Shiva, if you feel copyright has been infringed, you need to address that now.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Shockman said:
Retrocade, or whoever it is, said that they plan to use FP in a future product. If this table makes it into the product, then what? Shiva, if you feel copyright has been infringed, you need to address that now.

I did. It's very clearly stated in fact. If there's a problem, well, I do have a lawyer on retainer right now. That goes for everything else as well. Techniques that I did first, graphics (used in a lot of tables BTW, even PD) and even say shivaEngine. It was given out as free, but it's still copyrighted by the people involved.

There has been more than a few examples of one company making their product too close to another product from another company, and losing in court, but then all this will do is cause (and bring back up) a very OLD arguement that never has been resolved.

This is what happens when someone starts waving money in peoples faces. I don't object to making money (who would) but I do object if someone else does, and I would really object if I spent a excessive amount of my time on it.

This wasn't a game to me, this was love. And I am pretty sure everyone knows that. Some people use that to try and hurt me with it as well. It doesn't mean that I will stop making games, it just means that I understand certain people better, and make sure that copies of that game go to people that appreicate it for what it is. It's unfortunate, and sad, that this is the way it is now, but it is.

It doesn't matter if Retrocade makes it available or not. It's free anyway, and be made available as free, just a extra as part of the package.

I did get the program to work, but very badly in my computer, the best I could do is end up with VP in a window, with no scoring, bad and very annoying ball movement, and a quality that is good, but I can do better in VP myself. It may look like my game, but that's all it resembles.
It's a good Stein game, and that is all it really is.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
If there's a problem, well, I do have a lawyer on retainer right now. That goes for everything else as well. Techniques that I did first, graphics (used in a lot of tables BTW, even PD) and even say shivaEngine. It was given out as free, but it's still copyrighted by the people involved.

Was there something specific (graphically or otherwise) of yours I'm supposedly using, Shiva? I never copied any table technique from Trigon and it's the only table I've ever looked at of yours. I never even downloaded ShivaEngine. I did go through Shivasite's graphic files before, but I believe those were contributed by a lot of people and I saw no copyrights listed period on stock images of parts there. I'm not even sure if I used something from there, possibly a few textures. I got most source material images of actual games from people that sent me real photos of their machines or machines at shows.

As for possibly making a few bucks at some point, let's just say I'm glad I made all 27 of my scratch tables (24 released so far) by myself so if I ever did sign up with Ultracade (I haven't yet) I wouldn't have to worry about who made what on those tables. I was told graphics are being replaced so I shouldn't worry about someone like MrHide having a fit about his photos being used (even though he got back a fully finished VPM recreation in return for sharing the photos and no legal contract existed). As for informational "techniques" used in VP tables, unless patented no one has a legal claim on such ideas. It's why patents exist.

I never kept track of who did what first in VP other than my own stuff of course (of which there were numerous items), which I freely gave out for people to use as well. I do figure if they want to use my stuff, they should pay me something for it since they're obviously going to make money off my work at that point (the same would be true of any VP author from which they'd like to license a table and believe me some big ones already signed up). The important thing from a users' standpoint is their contract is a license for a specific use only (in their arcade product and the like and only in executable form) and so it doesn't affect any authors' ability to release the table file freely as usual. So in that regard, I'm not worried about Ultracade beyond whether they actually release an updated VP publicly.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
So now with UltraCade, VP, VPM, and FP, are we going to have to start copyrighting code snipets and routines for posterity? :p Dude, not that I would ever try to speak for anyone other than myself, I have the impression shiva is simply working off some frustration, and wasn't especially singling you out. Hey, most any author who has been around a while has figured out a few things on their own, even me. But I've also borrowed from demo tables, help request posts on all forums, and have gotten a lot of help from my various partner, especially Patrick.

Besides, most any "advance" is probably simply an adaptation of someone elses idea, since it's been said there are no new ideas. The only First for me is my Bob's Nemesis table that begins as a flippered table, and if you reach a certain goal, becomes a flipperless table until the ball drains. A new table concept, yes. A new way of combining several ideas into a nifty mode, yes. But I didn't do anything that hasn't been done before, just never in the way I happened to conceive it.

I don't care who borrows from me, as long as they borrow some of thse dang typos while they're at it. But yes, if somebody is going to make money on something I did, I want my share. As long as no money is involved, I'll help anyone dumb enough to think I know which way is up.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
actually, a lot of the graphics that were made available were done by me. Button targets, targets, spinners, apron or two etc. For instance, the button target you use is the same button target used on Trigon, in fact, I made the psd file available for that one as well, with three colors available as layers. (all the psd files were by me, except one that was submitted recently) That's what they were there for, as long as the tables were free. My style is different visually, I prefere to draw all my objects and graphics, (or redraw with a set image as a base) as opposed to cut and paste actual images, because I want a consistant look, and I like the cleaner appearance. some of them i put up was all.
Never said anyone couldn't use them if they want to, as long as it's free. If I wanted to be asked first, like I stated in Trigon, then I wanted to be asked first. (Not that it stopped anyone anyway)
As to scripts, I usually did my own like you, and they had blurbs in all of them as well.
Graphics can't have blurbs to them, but then, they are pretty much the same rule applied equally. If you produce a game with a image by someone else, and then turn around and sell that image included as part of the table, then it is wrong. I'm not a lawyer, but I think it doesn't make any difference if it's Microsoft, or your neighbor next door. It's not to say that it's just as right to do so if it's free either, just we all do it because if we didn't, there wouldn't be any tables to play.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
And to what John said, exactly. When someone tries to sell a collection of tables on ebay, don't we all object to it? I think the one thing everyone can agree with is we all hate it if someone tries to make money off of another persons work.
BTW john, computer code is under automatic artistic copyright as well. Know it's law up here, believe it is in the states as well. I believe the author can state the conditions for terms of use, but even if it's stated as being "free", the author that wrote it still retains the copyright. PD owns his code for the light fade script etc.
It's sometimes tough to prove though. A example, if ultracade contacts PD about his script, nothing comes out of it, then a few months later, a commercial script comes out with features very similar or exact like his script, even if there are enhancements, PD would still have a case, even if PD stated that the script was to be "freely used" when he distributed it.
So yes, if we all take that literally, then this community would be in a hell of a mess, but I also think it's common sense that is ruling the day. It's not really legal that runs all this, it's morals, or what's right and what's wrong.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
shiva said:
And to what John said, exactly. When someone tries to sell a collection of tables on ebay, don't we all object to it? I think the one thing everyone can agree with is we all hate it if someone tries to make money off of another persons work.
BTW john, computer code is under automatic artistic copyright as well. Know it's law up here, believe it is in the states as well. I believe the author can state the conditions for terms of use, but even if it's stated as being "free", the author that wrote it still retains the copyright. PD owns his code for the light fade script etc.
It's sometimes tough to prove though. A example, if ultracade contacts PD about his script, nothing comes out of it, then a few months later, a commercial script comes out with features very similar or exact like his script, even if there are enhancements, PD would still have a case, even if PD stated that the script was to be "freely used" when he distributed it.
So yes, if we all take that literally, then this community would be in a hell of a mess, but I also think it's common sense that is ruling the day. It's not really legal that runs all this, it's morals, or what's right and what's wrong.

Excellent post there kiddo. Somebody should send this thread to Rob, maybe it would finally sink through. I guess I should write up some convoluted piece of claptrap for us all to include in Table Information explaining who can and can't use what portions of said table in what given situations. And maybe have a section so each author could list individuals who weren't given permission. What I wonder is who will release the first illegal cross platform mod from VP to FP. Is Jive still around anywhere?

John
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Jive moved to Brazil and isn't interested in pinball on a computer anymore. As for the first illegal cross platform mod from vp to fp, that was the future pinball 'dev team' - leading by example I think there will be more, but since half the users can't use FP, it doesn't make much difference to me.
 

kristian

Pinball Wizard
"Half the users can't use FP"?

I think it's a lot more than just half. At this point I'd say that MOST users can't use FP. The most demanding PC game to date, Doom 3, runs almost ok in my machine with all details taken off but FP is completely unplayable.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
No one expected to be able to make any money from a VP table ever so no one ever gave it a second thought. Now that the possibility exists (in theory at least; I have yet to see anyone make anything), what I see is everyone and their brother seeing if they can get a cut even though their claims are dubious at best.

I think this kind of thing of everyone putting their hand in the cookie jar is exactly why I wouldn't bother telling anyone if I did sign up with Ultracade as it just gets absurd. People like Krellan were talking about wanting to be reimbursed for the lunch they had while at a pinball show where they took some photos of a commercial game. Give me a break. WTF does lunch have to do with making a table? Go back and look at that thread. It's total chaos. Every person that ever thought he opened a pinball table thought he should get a cut and I don't recall any of those people doing ANY work on my from scratch tables. I don't recall any of them staying up all night after working a regular 8 hour shift in another job to get tables finished. They took photos because they wanted to see recreations of those tables made. They didn't own the machines or the designs. They got tables in return just like they requested and those remain free. Graphics are being replaced in Ultracade versions so they have no claim anyway. In fact, I refused any offers for others to do work on my tables so I wouldn't have to put up with any author claims for whatever reasons in the future and now I'm glad I did.

As for whatever button targets (I've used several over the years), I can replace those quite easily if someone is going to make legal threats over their use (something I generally don't take kindly to, especially when they're not marked as being copyrighted on said now defunct web site. I seriously doubt that site had any rights to host WMS apron designs, bumper caps, etc. so you're probably lucky the site is down in that regard and if those standups were made from a copyrighted photo, there could be no legal claim to begin with). It doesn't matter, though. I estimate it will take about 5 minutes to make a new image in either a paint program or an image editor from a photo. So, by all means Shiva, please point out which standup target images you believe are yours and I will promptly replace them internally here on all future updates so I don't have to worry about legal threats over something like a red or white circle with a metal grey blip in the center.
 
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