Future Pinball is out!

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
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geezus PacDude, what the hell is the matter with you? I know you think your the center of the universe and all but why the hell do you have to take things so literally. I don't care what you use, never did, I'm pretty sure we use a lot of each other's stuff, idea's and concepts in our tables weather we know it or not. You've played with some of my concepts, I've played with some of yours, and we both seem to think alike on this entire matter anyway, so what's the point? There is none.
My goodness, if this was my kid saying that, he would be sitting on his bed right now having a time out.
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
Hello!!! What you are talking about???

This is my character/letter/number/what else?!?! No, it's my colour/form/size/what else!?!?

Are you really discuss about that???

Then tell me you have rights on my real and online name and if I don't pay $$$€€€ you bring an action against me.

Good to know you don't have real problems. Come back to life!!!
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
heh, it's really starting to get stupid isn't it now. :)
Fun though, there's too many serious things in life, and everyone needs a break now and then

PacDude, you can use anything of mine you want, weather you know it or not. I don't honestly care, I may not like certain things about your table, but then you don't care for my style either. I'm pretty sure that we both have used techniques and concepts, ideas, bit's of script, and everything else from everyone that even posted in this thread, but what it all boils down to is we both do what we do, or did in my case, for the same basic reason.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
shiva said:
heh, it's really starting to get stupid isn't it now. :)
Fun though, there's too many serious things in life, and everyone needs a break now and then

PacDude, you can use anything of mine you want, weather you know it or not. I don't honestly care, I may not like certain things about your table, but then you don't care for my style either. I'm pretty sure that we both have used techniques and concepts, ideas, bit's of script, and everything else from everyone that even posted in this thread, but what it all boils down to is we both do what we do, or did in my case, for the same basic reason.

It really is getting stupid when someone like David Foley & UltraCade can have us all worrying about protecting our own little corners of the pinball world. If they ever run out of flippered tables and want to use my work, I'd be a fool no say no. But there's no way I'll share whatever $$ I would get with anyone who helped test any of my tables, or the few folks who have supplied images. I never kept a list of who helped me out and how often, and since when they helped everything was free, a sincere thank you was all that was required.

On the other hand, I have about 75 flipperless table I could make if only I had rules for them. I've asked for rules information, but it simply isn't available in most cases. So, maybe I should offer a few dollars for those rules, and maybe they'll magically turn up. Well, if push comes to shove, I'll simply "guess my best" for the rules. If I have to start being a bookkeeper so I know who to share the $$ with I'll simply stop releasing my table. Not because I'm greedy, but because it would suck all the fun out of this hobby.

BTW Dude, I told you how much I enjoyed your Diner, so will I get a half dollar out of the riches you eventually earn from UltraCade? I don't recall who suggested that Everyone should get a share of the UltraCade money, but if that ever happened, authors would be idiots to sign a contract. Can you imagine splitting the pittance we might earn between thew 100,000 plus leechers? Hell, there are folks who have admitted that they have never and will never play a flipperless game, and I'm sure as hell not going to let them have any of my money. I sure wish we could turn back the clock a year and somehow maybe bypass all this crap.

John
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
when it comes to nickel and diming out the amount of table work, or laying claim to specific (can we say backdrops??? lol) - reminds me of the nicky remove my table work requests. I think most authors reacted the same way as PD here. Nobody intends to get anyone upset with this, and if having an image or design or layout in question, most people would comply except apparently in the case of a table being remarkably similar...ergh.
I've been desperate enough to offer money for roms (possibly too much, considering the value of the entire original real life machine price guides), - even offereng money for a lamp layout diagram, and haven't had much success with it. Occasionally an owner will do something, but it seems when money becomes involved as a motivator it doesn't work.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Shiva, you were the one talking about having lawyers on retainer (probably referring mostly to Trigon, but still) and then the bits about copyrighted parts images and I simply don't want to step on someone's toes if that's what it comes down to.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I would have thought that by now you would know me a bit better than that. Everyone knows my level of fustration right now, but it's been 5 years of that.
I don't object to anyone using my graphics, work etc as long as there's no charge. I gave it for free, it is to be used for free. I never objected to people taking entire sections of my layouts either for shivaEngine, because it is present in other people's templates as well. Would have been nice to get at least a thank you, but then I don't think anyone gets that enough either.
No problems, hopefully, in a few weeks, this thing hanging over my head will finally be resolved (and that's why I have a lawyer by the way, nothing to do with pinball) and maybe my fustration level will go down, but it's not gonna stop me from poping in here every once in a while, just to check that John hasn't blown up the site. Use what you will, it makes me happy if you find use for it, just as it would make you happy if I use something of yours, like the light fade system.

(interesting, now that I have a decent computer. A little high end for me to understand, but does work nicely for VPM)
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Well, I'm not charging, but Ultracade will be if they end up using my tables (I'm still waiting to see a contract). They say they will change the graphics, but that's out of my hands also at that point as to whether they really do or not. So I'm saying if you want me to change a standup target graphic NOW I can do that (I'd need to know which ones as I have used several models, some of which are hand modified or created using a paint program but I never kept track of what was what since they're all just sittin in a "targets" directory on my drive now. Otherwise, if you think Ultracade is using them in their versions, you'd have to take it up with them at that point.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Even if we did change tables right now, Ultracade already has the previous versions, so you'd still need to take it up with them shiva.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Don't worry about it. I'm not concerned about button targets anyway. If they want to use it, they can ask, I can say fine, there you go. There are limits though, but those a artwork type things anyway, and I am pretty sure they know all about copyright laws thanks to their previous problems.
Entire sections of layouts, or using stuff already marked as copyright, like scripts? different story. SE2 tables and stuff like that.
 

sleepy

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Hey Shiva,

Trigon is one of the finest tables ever done in VP. It is a beauty.
I often wish it was available in a tournament edition, but that means it would be locked. :wink:

Thank you for Trigon.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I mentioned the similarty issue between Trigon and SciFi over at VPF and no one seems to care if Stein ripped off Shiva's table. They just keep fawning over FP and kissing Black's butt (shrug). John sent me blueprint views of both and I have to say they look too similar to be coincidental, IMO.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Pacdude said:
I mentioned the similarty issue between Trigon and SciFi over at VPF and no one seems to care if Stein ripped off Shiva's table. They just keep fawning over FP and kissing Black's butt (shrug). John sent me blueprint views of both and I have to say they look too similar to be coincidental, IMO.

I always figure respect is a two-way street, and Stein of all people should be sensitive to that. And I'm enjoyable a good laugh over all the people going orgasmic over FP. I think a lot of that is that they are unwilling to admit they got their expectation blown all out of proportion, and don't want to look foolish.

I think that if Black will listen to suggestions and common-sense requests, FP has the potential to become a very solid program. I don't think the problem is so much Black as it is the giddy schoolgirl attitude of a lot of folks.

There's no way FP could have been released with everything needed to make everyone happy. Black has said that he will be making at least one and maybe more flipperless templates, and lio is going to model some pins for use on flipperless and bagatelle, so they seem willing to work with folks.

I'm working on a commentary about wish lists for FP and logical expectations, and would imagine I'll be stepping on some toes in the next few days. Rather than fussing about what can't be done with FP, some folks are finding workarounds already, and that is a plus. But most folks are drooling for ramps, and will probably make 3rd rate tables overloaded with lighting effects and music. No matter how good Black and company make FP, the tables will only be as good as the authors allow them to be, and that won't be any different than it has been in VP.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Maybe I should do a copy of a copy then? :)

Besides, mines still better. :D

The bizarre thing is exactly what I said about copyright and what I WILL enforce just happened, if you read the neptune thread. I think that's pretty clear, don't you? I am in a pretty bad mood today as well, and that person was maybe lucky that I didn't get the email until after business hours.

Trigon was to be locked BTW, I decided at the last minute not too lock it, as no one can understand the script anyway, not even me. The layout, well, I've seen enough of my style in so many other tables that there was no use to lock the layout view anyway.

Mistake? Yeap. Not done out of spite to any of you, but pretty much because of these ebay leeches. There was no way that it could have been a tournament game, he wanted control of the script to add his specialized code, and refused to give me the code to put it in myself before I released. Fine, I understand that, but I was the only one that could do it anyway, the script is so touchy that the slighest thing could have broken something quite easily.

You could read the rules, and always post the stats. It's pretty tough to cheat with the game, requires a LOT of knowledge to modify the script to the point that you can fake it, and really, why would anyone even bother with that? You beat the game, you get the final frenzy bonus (bet you not too many people have done that) and you do it the honest way, there's no better feeling than that.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
shiva said:
Maybe I should do a copy of a copy then? :)

Besides, mines still better. :D

The bizarre thing is exactly what I said about copyright and what I WILL enforce just happened, if you read the neptune thread. I think that's pretty clear, don't you? I am in a pretty bad mood today as well, and that person was maybe lucky that I didn't get the email until after business hours.

Trigon was to be locked BTW, I decided at the last minute not too lock it, as no one can understand the script anyway, not even me. The layout, well, I've seen enough of my style in so many other tables that there was no use to lock the layout view anyway.

Mistake? Yeap. Not done out of spite to any of you, but pretty much because of these ebay leeches. There was no way that it could have been a tournament game, he wanted control of the script to add his specialized code, and refused to give me the code to put it in myself before I released. Fine, I understand that, but I was the only one that could do it anyway, the script is so touchy that the slighest thing could have broken something quite easily.

You could read the rules, and always post the stats. It's pretty tough to cheat with the game, requires a LOT of knowledge to modify the script to the point that you can fake it, and really, why would anyone even bother with that? You beat the game, you get the final frenzy bonus (bet you not too many people have done that) and you do it the honest way, there's no better feeling than that.

I'll tell you, as much as I'm opposed to locks, I'm starting to think maybe it's time to begin using them. I wonder if any of you heavy duty programmers could come up with a way that uploading one of our tables requires a special code that each author could create for ourselves. You know these leeches and bloodsuckers are greedy when they start selling flipperless tables. Just think of all the unknowing suckers who keep getting ripped off by these jerks.

John
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
I don't know how much use it does me but I put copyright notices in my script - maybe I should start putting them on the backglass area where it is much harder to remove, although I can think of a way to do that quite easilly. I am really reluctant to lock tables as new authors can only learn from unlocked tables. However, the EBay leeches are a worry - I once emailed one of them and got a reply to the effect that all the stuff they sell is available in the public domain on the 'net so they could collect it and sell it - doesn't really make sense to me. I agreed with MrHide that I would not allow Volley to be bundled with any product which is sold so that is in the copyright notice in that table - that's the way I want it anyway. My copyright notice is meant to disallow distribution by those who just collect tables from the net and sell them in CD/DVD form on EBay but I doubt it will stop that sort of person anyway - at least I can have a go at them if they distribute my tables. I have no problem with Ultrcade selling their product and telling people to go and download extra tables from the various VP sites, I just don't want someone profiting from the work of authors who's motivation is to preserve tables for posterity and allow others to play them on computer.

DS
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
How about if you put a big ol copyright notice in the middle of the table, on the backglass, right where the flippers are that never goes away and is distracting to the play experience? :) Wait, somebody already thought of that...
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
heh, your funny Des. :)

I also put a copyright notice as well now within the rules of my tables, when you press the R key. 3 or 4 times it's mentioned through out the file and distribution notes, these people never pay attention.

Since everyone and their dog now has the unlock codes, guess the only thing to do is either give up, or release tables with password protection on the zips. Make them have to work for it, and with every update, set a new password. Should keep them busy. :)

As to FP, all I can say is not really interested at this time. It's a very strange program, there seems to have been a big effort to make certain things very easy, but other things appear way harder than VP. The scripting aspect is also a lot more complex as well by the looks of it. I can see fewer tables because of it, or at the very least, very bad ones just because of that.

Some things still need to be added still, but the models are good, just you are stuck with the scale sometimes. The thing that annoyed me is the lack of flexibility in certain things when it comes to creating a table, or fine tuning it. To be honest, I think VP, even with all it's problems, still can play better, but you would need to put the time in it.

It's pretty apparent that this is still very much a work in progress. I was struck by the physics, the flippers really need some work to get them balanced with shot selection. The ball movement also seems rather strange, especially in relation to powered slings, but though the simulated movement of the ball is quite good, it just doesn't look right, especially on the weaker shots and speeds.

I liked a few things as well, some things were changed a bit with building walls etc, but looks like a bit more of a learning curve than I had though. Already ran into trouble with certain objects. The layers idea is nice, though I doubt too many people would use it. The script editor is at the very least better than VP's, and some of the other built in support and new features were quite good. I could see a lot of things that could be improved, but it's not a bad start.

It's a bit tough without the proper card for it, but one thing I did notice, I ran in stock playfields I already did up in VP, and noticed that 1024 height images really look like crap in FP, compared to the same image in VP. A image I used was razor sharp in VP, but it appears the angles in FP cause lower resolution images to have lines to break up a bit, and the images as a whole look rather fuzzy even with different settings. Looks like those table sizes will be a lot bigger after all, because I think image sizes will have to be 2048 min. Have to try it though, but did notice it on a few playfields I did.

I agree though, no matter what, FP isn't gonna make a bad table any better, but sure will look nicer at least to people with the proper computer setup.
 

Anthias

Pinball Player
Well, Pretty does not your gameplay make. The thing is, no matter how nice an FP table looks, if its designer has not looked hard enough at effective layout design, ti'll still be second rate in its gameplay. Full stop.

Shiva: Trigon is a one of a kind table. Scifi is not the same in spite of its appearance as you said. While layout is a big part of a table, the other ellements of design must be married to it thoughfully to be effective. You mannaged the most stable marraige possible in VP, and I''m afraid that ScifFi does not compete. Thank you again for the splendid work you did over those three years in working to ensure that your sounds, code, ruleset, graphics, layout and gameplay all worked together in a seamless relationship to produce exceptional gameplay and a fantastic result.

Yes, I will be playing around with FP, but VP is an old friend, and its going to be a working partner in my pinball experiments for a long time to come.
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
One worry if lower resolution pics display badly in FP is that often small pics are all we have to recreate an old table with. If you look at quite a few of the VP tables which are recreations of old tables they don't look great as the table author didn't have nice high res pics to start with. We should still be able to get a playable result from low res pics as it is often all we have.

DS
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I find it interesting the comments about 1024 height images looking bad in FP after the way Mr. Wanker told us how awful VP is and how fabulous FP is with its increased texture resolution support and fabulous graphics. VP has a scaling issue (i.e. 1024 height graphics SHOULD look even better if the scaling was better (as evidenced by how good they look when displayed at 1600x1200), not worse. If FP can't even do as well with the same resolution graphics and needs more resolution, that sounds a bit strange to me.

Leo and his buddies also bragged to no end about how fabulous and realistic the physics model is that FP uses and so I find it strange that I see a LOT of complaints about the flippers being at least as bad if not worse in some respects than VP flippers (let alone the disappearing flipper bug some have already reported).
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I'm sure FP will only get better, but right now as I've mentioned, as have others, a lot more flexability needs to be offered to authors. I appreciate Black making me a flipperless template, but without being able to drop walls, or make them and kickers invisible most of my projects either won't be made in FP, or will look totally wrong..

At least with 13fps, my flipper skill has gotten a lot better. Now if only I could double that, the ball might roll a bit smoother. But to me what I'd really like is an option to disable the gameroom. It's cheesy in MNSHO, and slows down table loading. It's all about playing pinball, not gimicks.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I get 13 as well average. I've been modifing my template design system, and also making a object template table, but really, not much I can do with the system I have.
The images, yeap. I believe a setting will have to be set, bilinear instead of trilinear, but that's not gonna help other people as well. This was a really good image as well (You have seen it John recently) and though VP does have problems with graphic lines at a certain angle, FP is a bit worse, even with the best settings possible.
I'm wondering if a proper card would do the trick though, as a lot of the models look like crap anyway.
As said before, a lot of things are a lot easier to use, but haven't come to the hard parts yet. I can see play balance will be tough, instead of having the ability to fine tune settings, it's just a list of choices from a drop box. (Maybe script? not sure, I have a lot to read right now on other things) and I really do like the layers idea as well, especially if you use it properly.
It does keep the name of the objects when you cut and paste from one table to another, that is a very good upgrade from VP, but there's a lot of things we could do before we won't be able to do now, and I wonder about the lack of flexibility because of that. The tables being shown are quite nice to look at, but if they are all gonna be like that because of the lack of flexibility, then it's gonna get old very fast.

The problems with smaller images are a bit of a worry. I'm not exactly experimenting with it, but it shows on other images so far. I haven't loaded in Trigon yet, it's at 1024 (of course) but the psd file is 2048, so will see what it looks like as a comparason. Learning curve and all.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Okay, I did a test of the difference between two sizes. I use the master psd file of Trigon (despite some missgivings) because I knew that it was the cleanest best quality image I had.

I used BMP at 32 bit to save two images, one at 1024 image height, the second at 2048. The screenshots were done in jpeg, but they still show the table quite clearly. The screenshot I took showed a slight difference more, but it should be good enough. First off, the 1024 image, on a table at trilinear settings etc (in other words, everything was exactly the same, except the height of the image)

http://img486.imageshack.us/my.php?image=playfieldur10241jj.jpg

now the 2048 image

http://img486.imageshack.us/my.php?image=playfieldur20486yf.jpg

There is a bit of a difference, even with jpeg. You can see some distrotion of the colors, and some lines are slightly more ragged. It appears that your image will have to be real good if it's 1024, less so with 2048.

It's a slight difference overall, but if you look closely, you see a bit of color bleeding and some of the lines are more ragged with the smaller image. Some of the fine detail linework around the light locations suffered the most, so I guess a min of 4 pixel lines should be used. Noticed the automatic darkening of the image as well at this view, that may have helped a bit. The "birds eye" view was to small for me to see clearly, but the fine lines do come out a tad blurry, and I also noticed it had some problems drawing a perfect circle image in some places (the bottoms were flatened out etc. It was perfectly flat though, no darkness.

Well, there you go, make up your own mind. Remember this is a master image, I don't think you can get a better quality master image than this as a test. Normal internet/graphic resources are not of this quality, or even close most of the time.
 
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