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Future Pinball New Release

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Well, bang on time, a new version of FP came out. Lots of stuff of course, most notably Ramps. Seems to be getting there, but I really wish there weren't forced restrictions of things like sizes and heights.

Well, even with my 3 fps playablity, still gonna have a look see, when ever I have the time. As usual, gave myself too many things to do at once with the various projects and the server, but it just worked that way. I know it still isn't able to do my newest layout, because there's a feature that hasn't been invented yet in real life because I dreamed it up, but looks like the ramps have some good flexibility, so maybe we can do some "out of the box" things.

Hmm, maybe you can do it. Sigh, wish I had clone technology so I can get all the stuff done. :(
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Just downloaded it, and will check out not only what new features it has, but what old features are still lacking. Although according to Leon we're suppoed to be happy for small favors and simply forget about what isn't, and won't, be added. After all FP isn't VP, never will be, and we should all be thankful for some reason for that. Now can someone explain why I should be happy for missing and needed features, if indeed they are still missing? Also, if i'm to believe Leon, I'll probably burn in hell for even thinking about missing and wanted features. Maybe I'm safe since I never mentioned what I'm talking about. :p
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
It's still FP. You are still using models and settings of his choosing, not yours. Still Big, bigger, little, littler and strong, stronger or weak, and weaker, that sort of crap. So it's about as creative as putting together a jig saw puzzle.
The ramps are good, but I'd much rather have a light shine up through a hole without lighting a ring around the thing like it's above the playfield, or shining through 3/4 inch of solid wood, whatever the guy is thinking.

It's an improvment. But still slave labor in my view. Meaning that that big ugly logo is true as death.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Actually, I'm happy for him, and glad that FP isn't VP. No, I'm glad that VP isn't FP, because a lot of things that are now in FP would have been added to VP, and it would have destroyed the program. Things like those built in forced limitations, ramp can only be a min. width (think it was 15) so I'm quite thankful that things didn't work out with that VP version. As to FP, yeah, I hear you, but then it's also totally different than VP in concept, so this way will work better for some people, VP will work better for others. I'm just glad I still have my old buggy pain in the ass VP.

I think that's really the weakness of FP, it's not that you can't do things, you can only do old things, not new ones or new ideas. I love early Bally/Stern/Williams SS type games, so FP would be perfect for them (Minus drop walls of course, beat you to it John) but with the limitation that I can only use other peoples ideas, and not be able to create my own object concepts from scratch.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future though. I'm working with a pyhsics engine and a effects engine in VB.net, and it's way better and faster than FP at the moment. Maybe FP will mature to be a bit faster as well, though I think the combination of Newton and 3D is the problem with the speed. On my computer, with no card, and using the .net effects/physics engine, I have particles, wind, joints, ragdolls and fluid effects, and can have 450 objects moving at once at 30 fps (2D enviroment).

Even in a 3D pinball system, that would be cool. :)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
shiva said:
(Minus drop walls of course, beat you to it John)

You're in for it now Big Blue. Leon will be on you like a shadow at high noon. As he explained to me privately, and then denied ever sayingt, Future Pinball is meant to be used by Real Authors. All I can figure is that according to Leon and maybe others who tout FP, anyone who would stoop so low as to use drop walls surely can't be considered a Real Author. But now that FP has ramps and so does old has been VP, maybe FP authors aren't Real Authors either.

Doesn't matter to me. I'll keep using klutzy old VP, which allows me to make any kind of table I want, using drop walls, ramps of any size and configuration, and even my own imagination and creativity, if I so desire. Leon obviously doesn't consider those of us who still use VP Real Authors, and I guess maybe Black agrees with him. But don't worry Leon, deny your Real Author comment all you want, I didn't save your PM, and even if I had, I would never post it to prove you wrong.

But not to worry, I'm sure Leon will double-speak his way out of this. What I wonder is if IRPinball will be removing their VP tables, since most, if not all of their team is now working seemingly exclusively on FP. And since VP and FP are two seperate and distinct programs, why does Leon feel a need to insult and attack VP authors all the time? And to think that Leon practically forbid me from discussing Future Pinball, because I don't care about it. But if I didn't care about FP, why would I keep asking and hoping for drop walls? Better wash my mouth out with soap, your's too shiva.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Hmm, real author. I guess that would be me then huh, since I'm one of the few people that came real damn close. The funny thing is when it was mentioned that actual pinball machines do use drop walls in real life, the topic was closed. :)

No sweat anyway. I'm happy anyway. I like the fact there's 2 different programs, though neither is really suitable enough for me. Be nice to have a happy medium, but that would take effort on someone's part, and we can't have that. I know at least that VP could have been a lot better if Randy hadn't did it the cheap and easy way, and added true VB5-6 support, as opposed to being "emulated" (VP is written in C++ I believe) because then we could have fixed everything ourselves, and added what ever we wanted in terms of features.

I have Visual Studio, and it's amazing the difference between true VB and VP's vb. But it was a closed development, and that's that. Maybe someone will take a crack at it in the future, have a go at it, but takes some pretty hefty brain power to do it. hell, 95% of all the users out there can't even script vp, let alone vb.net
Lots of great game related scripts though for Visual Basic

Maybe Ultracade will put out a commercial version, with drag and drop objects and precoded scripting, (Like PCS or Pinball Builder) but who knows with them, as they seem very very quiet now don't they? Might not be possible though for us, but you never know. Strange things do happen.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
When Black locked the drop wall discussion, I figured he was basically telling me, you, and a few others to "shut up" or else, so nothing much has changed from when he worked on VP. If you're one of his buddies you'll get pretty much whatever you ask for. But if you're not part of the Inner Circle, and don't bow low enough, you'd better not stir up any dust clouds or you'll be considered a trouble maker.

I'd like someone to explain how a spinning disc is more common on a pinball game than a wall that drops. And exactly why isn't a drop target a wall that drops? Anyone have an answer for that one Leon? But what gripes me more than anything is that good old Leon seems to really think I'll shut up about what's lacking in FP simply because he demands that I do. Fine bit of PR work you folks at FP are doing.

You throw scraps at those authors who are blinded by the Way Too Bright lighting, and tell anyone asking for needed components and flexibility to shut up or else. I can understand not having Rom support, but please explain the harm of walls that drop, and why that is impossible, when there are already walls that drop. Or maybe targets only fake being walls that drop. Beware the anger of Leon.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
It's not Leon's fault that walls in FP can't drop.... Why say that Leon sucks when what you mean is that Black or FP sucks.... Personally, I'm not even downloading this new version, I need a wire ramp like I need a hole in the head if the ball physics and flipper aiming still suck.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
They both suck.

Bob you can't say that you are not going to download it and you don't think the flippers and ball physics are better too. I can say I think they're not, but I downloaded it.
Just a few more billion 3d models (for each size) and I'd say it's the shit.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Well yeah. The thing is as I am learning these new systems, I keep coming across features and ways to do things that was said to be very hard to do, yet I can do it quite easy now. Dynamic shadows for instance, that seems to not affect the speed much, yet there's about 25 moving objects and quite a few stationary ones. (It's 3D as well)

This new game engine I have is simply awesome, and controlled by VB code. Particle effects are wow. I don't have a card either, but still real bloody fast on my computer. The reason for all those objects is because of the way it's done, believe it or not, SPRITES! (There's a blast from the past huh?)
But I have also seen some 3D stuff as well. Amazing how creative some people are. But these are also for all types of games, platforms, shooters, RTS, FPS etc. The pinball stuff is rather "basic", but the physics are not bad, better than Newton at the moment.

Hey Bob, if you need ramps, you can always build them in FP, then screenshot them and use the image for VP. :)
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Shocky, I read the reviews at VPF and don't feel I need to download this version.

shiva, I don't really like wire ramps anyway, at least the few I've tried on real machines. I did try to use a post from FP on Spider-man VPM, but I couldn't get one to look right in VP.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
bob said:
It's not Leon's fault that walls in FP can't drop.... Why say that Leon sucks when what you mean is that Black or FP sucks.... Personally, I'm not even downloading this new version, I need a wire ramp like I need a hole in the head if the ball physics and flipper aiming still suck.

I agree Bob, but it is Leon's fault to have appointed himself PR man for Future Pinball, and then to expect people to stop discussing various aspects of FP just because he can and does get upset. I get tired of being told I'm a whiner simply because walls that drop are an important and needed ferature to me. And I never said Leon sucks, but it does get old listening to him fuss and complain because I continue to discuss features that Black won't give us at a forum that isn't Black's.

Leon started out trying to insult me into silence, implying I was the only"author" who wanted walls that drop. Well, Black may have locked that discussion at his site, but it's been unlocked here. What gripes me is that Black won't discuss walls that drop, which is his right, but even more it gripes me that Leon has called me names and even insulted mein an effort to get me to stop talking about them. Leon denies being Black's fair haried boy, but that's what it seems like to me. And to be honest, this has evolved into nore about upsetting Leon than it is about getting walls that drop, since they won't happen. I simply don't care for someone to come here and try to bully me into silence.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
The reviews at VPF. Oh, those.

If I can say so, without starting another thread LOL, I got an IP ban at VFP, The bastards.

A life long ip ban. I'd like to kill them.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Yeah Bob, VP and graphics....

I hate the fact VP will shade a side automatically, and it's a bitch to get a decent quality on a texture. That's why I use my (and I admit it) insane wall building thing, because it's easier to build walls that fumble around with graphics. In my brief experience with FP, I noticed it was easier in some ways, but harder than others. It takes me the same time to do a VP game as it does with FP from a layout point of view and adding graphics.

I think though I have found a decent way to do it in vp, just a bit more work in photoshop is all, and a better planning, like the rubbers I do now. Things could be a lot simplier using VP, but then, you can say that with FP as well.
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
WWWHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WWWWWWHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA


MOMMY

The nasty FP guys won't give me what I want!!!

WWWHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WWWWWWHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA


John, I really don't give a shit how long you piss and moan about no drop walls. Be my guest.
Use FP, don't use FP.
I don't care.
I got far better things to do than flog this dead horse.

C'mon loud mouths. Put ya money where ya mouths are.
Make your own pinball program.
Have some gutz and put your credability on the line.
All eyes will be on ya.
When ya fail your credability will be shot to hell and you will STILL be in the position you are in now.

I know I don't have the talent that is needed for such a huge undertaking so, I respect those who have and if you want to paint that respect as "ass kissing" then so be it.
You only make yourselves look bitter and twisted.

Anyways I got FP tables to make.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Sure thing Leo, no problem, give me the source code for VP and a few years to play with it and I'll whip the pinball simulator up in a year or three, no problem and it won't have warm, fuzzy or 'normal' strength settings either. :mrgreen:
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Leon, I'm really rooting for a fine tuned version of FP with great physics, I'll buy it when reaches that point, but my initial excitement lasted about as long as my excitement lasted for the original Pinball Construction Set. I've said many times that graphics are my #1 priority in a VP table, but I guess graphics is really my #1 priority for downloading a Pinball table. BTW, you originally said you'd be making an FP and VP version of your tables, has this plan changed? Do you think the ball physics on FP are good enough to actually play a table 100 times? Or... Do you think they are just good enough to create your own tables with? One of the problems with authors is that they eventually, mostly enjoy building tables and testing them, not really playing the crap out of someone elses table. There are players and there are authors, but there are only a few player authors. There are also a few authors that should be players. :D There are also way too many forum members who don't play or author tables, I guess they just like the soap opera that we have slowly created.

As long as everyone's having fun....

Shocky, you got to be kidding me, you're IP banned from VPF? Is that why they let you have two posting accounts here? :D
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Don't need the source code to VP SteveOz, why copy a program that was primitive 7 years ago?

As I said before, there's lots of ways to (excuse the expression) skin a cat, and who said you have to be restricted to one thing or another? You can build it in VB, Flash, C, even one of those Creation game systems can do it, in fact, I know you can because I've seen it. (Mind you, needed a lot of work)

Wasn't that what people talked about years ago? A Freeware system to replace VP, but was flexible enough for everyone to use, and open source so those with talent can add/improve etc?

Can be done, quite easily in fact, depending on what you use, but Leon is right in a way because he knows the history of the community, talk is cheap, but doing is another matter. It's not that we can't, it's because we don't make the effort to even try.

BTW, take a year to do if you have enough people, and they want to learn the coding (not hard really, if I can do it, so could others) and the resources are out there, and they are free. :)
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
shiva said:
Don't need the source code to VP SteveOz, why copy a program that was primitive 7 years ago?

As I said before, there's lots of ways to (excuse the expression) skin a cat, and who said you have to be restricted to one thing or another? You can build it in VB, Flash, C, even one of those Creation game systems can do it, in fact, I know you can because I've seen it. (Mind you, needed a lot of work)

Wasn't that what people talked about years ago? A Freeware system to replace VP, but was flexible enough for everyone to use, and open source so those with talent can add/improve etc?

Can be done, quite easily in fact, depending on what you use, but Leon is right in a way because he knows the history of the community, talk is cheap, but doing is another matter. It's not that we can't, it's because we don't make the effort to even try.

BTW, take a year to do if you have enough people, and they want to learn the coding (not hard really, if I can do it, so could others) and the resources are out there, and they are free. :)

Well.......
I have to be honest and say I was picking my jaw off the floor when I read this reply.
Totally opposite to what I expected.

I congratulate you Shiva.
What a breath of fresh air to see someone use BRAINS to post instead of the tired old "sour grapes" and bitterness.

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post:
I you or anyone else manages to pull off a bigger and better pinball program then I WILL be the FIRST in line to pat you on the back and say well done.

Somehow I feel my "back patting" hand is safe.

@Bob:

I have played more FP tables since FP V1 than VP tables by a mile.
I have (and still do) play Road Girls to death.
I play my own 50/50 more than any other table I have made to date.
I know FP has some physics issues but, they are no more annoying than the ones in VP. Just different.
Most of the time I don't notice it.
If you do that's your issue not mine.
I had a look at PD's new Jurasic table the other day. Good table but, the thing that struck me most was "cardboard cutout" and before you say it, I know FP is not capable of doing a table like that yet but, who knows in the "future".
The only VP table I play with any regularity these days is.......

Trigon

Yes, I was going to do both VP and FP versions of tables but, I just plain don't have the spare time anymore and it takes MUCH longer to do VP as to do FP tables.
So, guess what has won?
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
PacDude's JP is out?

This sucks.

Do those anon.proxy things work?

I think the reason I got 2 accounts here is because the staff choose two over three.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Err, maybe you should keep that hand you pat with handy, just in case. As I said, I've seen other editor(s) (a couple in fact) that could be developed further quite easily.

And of course, that also depends on the community, or at least a person who actually has made the effort all these years wishing to do so. As I said, it's not a concept, it's not wishful thinking, it can be done, and very quickly in fact.

top down, 2D, 3d, doesn't matter. The physics engine is true 3D physics, but even if you don't like that version, there's several available anyway. My new community has members in the hundreds of thousands, and unlike this community, are actually helpful. Thousands of tutorials and examples, terrabytes of graphics, and more dll's and scripts than you can count. The open nature of the main program means you can do what ever you want, and even do things like play games online againest other people.

I disagree about the time difference, but then I haven't the amount of time to use the program you do. It takes me just about the same amount of time. My only real problem with FP is the rather high end specs needed, and the very "closed" nature of the program, especially with the forced limitations.

BTW, I did do the Trigon Layout in FP. I think it shows the biggest difference between VP and FP. The game in FP lacks heart and character, and though the program has pretty graphics capabilities, there's a lot more to pinball design than pretty graphics. (And the VP version still has better graphics I think)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo_Wanker said:
WWWHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WWWWWWHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA


MOMMY

The nasty FP guys won't give me what I want!!!

WWWHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
WWWWWWHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA


John, I really don't give a shit how long you piss and moan about no drop walls. Be my guest.
Use FP, don't use FP.
I don't care.
I got far better things to do than flog this dead horse.

C'mon loud mouths. Put ya money where ya mouths are.
Make your own pinball program.
Have some gutz and put your credability on the line.
All eyes will be on ya.
When ya fail your credability will be shot to hell and you will STILL be in the position you are in now.

I know I don't have the talent that is needed for such a huge undertaking so, I respect those who have and if you want to paint that respect as "ass kissing" then so be it.
You only make yourselves look bitter and twisted.

Anyways I got FP tables to make.

Your attitude and signature say it all Leon, you kissed ass and you got what you wanted in FP. So now rather than ordering us to shut up about the shortcomings of FP, you challenge us to make our own program. I don't need to make my own program, not that I could; I'll simply use VP which has the outlawed features I need. And what you call "pissing and moaning" is merely trying to make FP useful to more authors. But as Black showed with his F1 VP release, he isn't about making a useful program, he's more about flaunting his know-how, dangling carrots in the form of flashy features that might or might not work, and pouting when he isn't adored enough. I've listened to his song and dance before, so I guess I'll watch from the sidelines as far as FP goes. Like I've said before, I don't need FP, I have VP, and I'm not giving up on VP just because Black says Jump. Maybe the reason there are no drop walls in FP other than targets is because Black isn't a good enough programmer to allow them. I wouldn't know, since I'm not a programmer at all. But then, I never claimed I was. Are you puckering up again Leon, or have all the features you wanted been added already?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo_Wanker said:
Yes, I was going to do both VP and FP versions of tables but, I just plain don't have the spare time anymore and it takes MUCH longer to do VP as to do FP tables. So, guess what has won?

So besides being a blowhard, you're also not a man of your word. Or were you "instructed" to quit working in VP? Would be interesting to know the truth, but of course we never will. And have you noticed Leon, that I'm far from the only person who isn't "in love" with FP?
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
tiltjlp said:
Your attitude and signature say it all Leon, you kissed ass and you got what you wanted in FP.

LOL. Say what you want John. Sour grapes oozes from your ever word.
Want to talk about "attitude"? Let's talk about yours shall we?
Everyone who is interested is allowed to make suggestions for FP.
Some will be told "YES". Some will be told "NO" it's the very nature of life.
Both of the above have already happened on many occasions.
The BIG difference between you and others who have been told "NO" is that most of the others haven't had a GREAT BIG GIRLEY DUMMY SPIT FIT RAVING ON ENDLESSLY.
Would you like to throw yourself on the ground and have a tantrum to complete the act.

tiltjlp said:
So now rather than ordering us to shut up about the shortcomings of FP, you challenge us to make our own program. I don't need to make my own program, not that I could; I'll simply useVP which has the outlawed features I need.

Well do it man. What are you doing pissing on about FP for??
I don't get it??
You keep saying the above over and over. Why not marry that thought with an action and fuggin DO IT!
Stop pissin on and get into it.
Would you like me to get the Queen of friggin England to give you her blessing to do so?

tiltjlp said:
And what you call "pissing and moaning" is merely trying to make FP useful to more authors.

LOL. You mean more useful for YOU don't ya John?
That's what this is really all about isn't it?
YOU are not getting what YOU want so, YOU are having a girls blouse fit about it.

tiltjlp said:
But as Black showed with his F1 VP release, he isn't about making a useful program, he's more about flaunting his know-how, dangling carrots in the form of flashy features that might or might not work, and pouting when he isn't adored enough. I've listened to his song and dance before, so I guess I'll watch from the sidelines as far as FP goes. Like I've said before, I don't need FP, I have VP, and I'm not giving up on VP just because Black says Jump.

Now I'd like you to show me ANYWHERE where ANYONE has said ANYBODY has to give up VP.
Where do you dig up these fairy stories from?? :lol:

tiltjlp said:
Maybe the reason there are no drop walls in FP other than targets is because Black isn't a good enough programmer to allow them. I wouldn't know, since I'm not a programmer at all. But then, I never claimed I was. Are you puckering up again Leon, or have all the features you wanted been added already?

NA!!
I gave him a list and paid up my ass kisses in advance. ROFLMAO.
C'mon John you need to do better than that to insult me.

tiltjlp said:
So besides being a blowhard, you're also not a man of your word. Or were you "instructed" to quit working in VP? Would be interesting to know the truth, but of course we never will. And have you noticed Leon, that I'm far from the only person who isn't "in love" with FP?
Leo_Wanker at VPF said:
For my part I intend to try to do both VP and FP tables.

No "word" there.
You're getting mighty desperate there John.
There's no fool like an old fool I guess. :roll:

"Blowhard" Is that your term for someone who tells you the truth and watches you throw a fit about it??

Am I supposed to be upset that there are people that don't like FP??

If the above seems harsh just remember you have been "slaggin" me off from the get go in this thread so, you deserve it. Bob is right. It is not my fault there is no drop walls in FP but, it's not like I care one way or the other.
I have merely given you the facts. The rest is YOUR doing.

C'mon John. Step up and give me ya best shots.
I wanna SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN'
:p :p :p
 
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