Future Pinball Thoughts

[PacDude]

Given the volatility of this topic and my need to express my true opinions, I've decided to post this here instead of at VPF in regards to the latest FP "lookie here" thread:

Some people are easily impressed by 3D models, I guess. :agree:

Modeling is done with an external modeler. Nothing to do with FP other than it can input the results. Zoomed pictures mean nothing for the view you're going to use during gameplay and most stuff still looks cartoony to me (not photographic quality at all). Lights also still look awful in those new previews, IMO (like putting light blobs on solid objects, with no rendering results; given some comments by a certain someone awhile back saying it now lights plastics really well, I just don't see it in those previews).

Now I'm not saying FP isn't going to be a nice, albeit limited (by CPU power and polygon limits) 3D pinball program when it's done, but are you taking a tour of the table with a 3D mini-camera or are you going to play pinball with it? I bet Kurt could show some AWESOME views like that of his Truespace rendered tables. It was the end result in VP that mattered and his method will always look better than FP because he has no limits on rendering complexity, having no need for real-time 3D.

But most importantly to me, I still say FP is the Microsoft style equivalent of the pinball world while VP/VPM is more like Freeware/Linux by comparison. Get your wallets out, folks. Time to buy the Black Cat a new Mercedes.

Persoanlly, I'd rather see orphans get the money, but that's the difference between someone like me and someone like Black (hence why I ask for donations to charity when I release an otherwise FREE table recreation). Me, I see Black as the type that puts himself first in the world and the hell with anyone else, but obviously, some of you couldn't care less about that sort of thing and can't wait to give the guy that threatened Paratech's life over a "not the best table I've seen" type comment about Stein's Jetsons table your money. Personally, I won't be giving him a red cent. If you don't agree, that's your business, but I feel the need to give my opinion on the matter after working 3.5 years for the sake of pinball, not making money.

 

[tiltjlp]

I agree with a lot that you said, Dude. I don't plan on buying FP for a bit different reason. I make flipperless table, mostly bagatelle and hopefully more trade stimulators, and I don't redraw the images. I will enhance the images a bit for clairty but I think games that are 50 to 75 years old should show their age. Besides, given my vision problems, and total lack of skill with all the fancy things Scapion and the Dude and countless others can do, why buy something when I won't really use most the features of the program.

The only way I would consider paying for FP is if it had auto-coding, since I'm lousy at that too. But since I now work with Patrick, who does all the coding, and even fixes my coding errors, I don't need FP. VP does more than I need it to, has a wide user base, and if I ever improve my skills, Dude has shown that almost anything can be done with VP. Besides, I can't afford the new computer and monitor I'd need to run FP. I have nothing against Black, and wish him well, but I wonder how many folks will abandon VP for FP and what will probably be a steep learning curve.

John ldman

 

[TomB]

Using an external modelling tool like Milkshape sounds like an advantage to me. Considering what PacDude and other premium table authors have done with limited capabilities of VP (drop walls, decals, reels) makes me wonder what they can do if they can import true 3D-models. On the other hand, depending on external software like Milkshape or the Newton engine could be fatal in case one of these aren't maintained any further by their original publisher for some reason (we have some experience with two-year update intervals by now .

The Newton engine might be at least one of the reasons why FP won't be freeware. I guess Black will have to buy a license to use Newton, probably on a per-copy basis. The conflict of table authors here is obvious, they publish tables for free while Black earns money with each copy of FP. Since Black is probably aware of this conflict too, perhaps we'll see a solution that is acceptable for both Black and the authors.

I admit I'm (easily) impressed by the screenshots at the FP website but I'm personally more interested in proper physics (full z-axis support, realistic flippers etc.) and FP looks like it will offer a lot here.

Anyway, let's wait and see how FP will actually turn out. All discussion about it's capabilities is currently based on guesses and a few screenshots.

 

[kristian]

The point is (imo) that tables can only get as good looking and I think we have pretty much reached that by now. Well, you can probably add some nice eye candy and reflections with FP but the only thing that matters is the ball & flipper physics & possible VPM support (or lack of it).

And besides, rendered posts and toys don't look fully realistic. Real images (providing they're high quality) are always better choice.

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Pacdude, health officials warn against excessive stress.
Future pinball IS coming. (one day)

People are entitled to want to get paid for their effort.
People are also allowed to give the fruits of their labors away. This is the society that we live.

I would not worry too much about Black getting rich of FP. Most people who download VP are the people who download any program that is free, I think he will be lucky to get 1% of the people who have downloaded VP to hand over money for his version.
Plus he will need original tables for non-authors to play. Few people will pay money if there are only a handful of tables available. And unfortunately for Black he has already alienated one talented author (yourself) from creating tables for FP.
Also when people PAY for their software they are not quite so forgiving of bugs and incompatibility problems.

So when FP does come, just close your eyes and think of pretty flowers and butterflies. :)

Now that VP is working better, I am not in any rush to buy Future Pinball

 

[PacDude]

Using an external modelling tool like Milkshape sounds like an advantage to me. Considering what PacDude and other premium table authors have done with limited capabilities of VP (drop walls, decals, reels) makes me wonder what they can do if they can import true 3D-models. On

You assume such people (including myself) would be good at making true 3D models. That may be true and it may not be. VP has a lot of 2D capability and that's a very different ball of wax. I used to do true 3D about 10 years ago on the Amiga so I'm sure I could adapt and yes it would have definite advantages in that respect (personally I'd like to see more 3D *building* tools put into VP for a 3D build of a 2D style table; after all both ProPinball and Kurt's tables are still 2D despite external 3D prerendering. Putting those capabilities into the editor itself would be a GREAT idea, but I'm NOT sold on *real* *time* 3D at this stage. Other than flyovers to impress people, it's not particularly "useful" for it to be in real time 3D and it has definite disadvantages at this stage whereas adding more 3D elements to VP while keeping 2D ones like reels & decals could only help it as you'd simply gain more flexibility. If it got really complex, some prerendering parts would probably have to be done with the table and saved into it, but otherwise, my ideal option PERIOD (regardless of whether it's free or not) would be like that (3D editor, but 2D run-time output).

The best thing VP could do right now to LOOK as sharp as the FP previews would be to upgrade it's SCALING ability. VP scales like CRAP for the most part. Decals and Reels are 2-3x better than drop walls, but far from perfect. Walls need the most improvement plus the capability for localized image mapping on the horizontal surface. VP's particularly bad at scaling localized rendering on the side walls (clearly FP does about 10x better in that area gaging by the sharpness of the previews). But VP could be just as good, but it needs upgrades. I'm sure Bublehead would love to help Randy with those sorts of things, but Randy doesn't seem interested period for reasons unknown and he's not talking about.

the other hand, depending on external software like Milkshape or the Newton engine could be fatal in case one of these aren't maintained any further by their original publisher for some reason (we have some experience with two-year update intervals by now .

I'd be more concerned about whether Black maintains FP over the long haul. We saw how he was reacting about VP, not taking suggestions serious and/or even saying he was NOT going to implement stuff I wanted just because it was me requesting it, etc. Then there was the "going to release / not going to release" ping-pong games he was playing, the '(he's) got plans of his own' comments, etc. Even John Kerry didn't flip-flop that much. :D

The Newton engine might be at least one of the reasons why FP won't be freeware. I guess Black will have to buy a license to use Newton, probably

Black made it clear that HE wanted to paid even for his VP work and seemed to be on track to sell it when Randy showed up and gave away the 6.1 version with the expiration disabled. He claims it was Randy that was trying to sell it, but that doesn't wash at all with what we've seen publicly (no sign of that and Randy now showing up to fix the bugs). So I'd say the #1 reason is he wants to be paid.

Now I don't have a problem with software authors wanting to be paid for their work, but it's a little different when the software in question is more like a compiler or game engine in function and has sub-authors making the actual games for it. If I can't sell the games (or make recreations to sell with it), that means any work I do in that regard turns into free advertising, promotional work and/or expansion packs (depending on how you look at it) for Future Pinball. Essentially, he gets paid and the FP table authors become slave labor (worse; they'll have to PAY to get the editor too) and THAT is what I have a problem with. I shelled out money for ProPinball and all kinds of other pinball games, but NONE of them contained developer software to make your own games. And that is why I start to have issues. Yes, no one is making me use it. And that is preciesly why I will NOT use it. I prefer to promote using VP and/or the eventual creation of a new (or conversion of VP to) an open source model. That way everyone on the "authoring" side gets equal treatment. Whether anyone can make money on the originals produced would be up to the table author to try and collect on.

I have little doubt FP will make original table authors "graphic" job much easier in some respects. It's much simpler to place a pre-made accurate looking post or bumper on a table than one that needs dressed up manually (as VP requires). This will get originals looking better on average, at least. I still suspect most layouts will be cheesy, boring, etc. and the table will still require programming. If Black simplifies programming too much, you will have a limited system that can't do many original things. If he leaves it wide open it will be like VP where most authors can't program their way out of a paper bag. That IS why most originals suck, after all. It takes skill to do layouts and skill to do graphics and yet more skill to do programming. VPM simplifies the artwork and layout side in that you have pictures and blueprints and VPM simplifies the programming side in that you're doing more PLC type programming work instead of the table's entire logic. But a good original means you do it ALL. There aren't too many up to that task. I only see where FP makes modeling (and also creating layouts to some degree) easier. I just somehow doubt most of the people that ARE up to the task of making a good original are going to want to do it for free. I suspect they will want to sell their tables. Given FP's cost, I hope they CAN sell their tables. OTOH, I'm not sure who is going to want to buy them unless they're near commercial quality as they will probably have to buy the editor and the table also (otherwise Black would only get his cut from the author if the tables could be compiled to stand-alone and be distributed on their own).

on a per-copy basis. The conflict of table authors here is obvious, they publish tables for free while Black earns money with each copy of FP. Since Black is probably aware of this conflict too, perhaps we'll see a solution that is acceptable for both Black and the authors.

I have no issue with FP for originals as long as the authors can get their cut out of the deal (assuming anyone wants to buy their table), but it remains to be seen if that will happen and how it will happen.

Unfortunately, I see no real option for authors of recreations as they would be opening themselves up to potential lawsuits if they tried to sell a recreation without a license.

I admit I'm (easily) impressed by the screenshots at the FP website but I'm personally more interested in proper physics (full z-axis support, realistic flippers etc.) and FP looks like it will offer a lot here.

I really hope Randy will at least consider adding Z-axis trigger detection support to VP if not revamping the flippers a bit. Destruk provided him with the ball-through-flippper fix. We have yet to see if he will use it. If he does not, then my suspicions about who Randy may really be might have some weight thrown towards them as there is no good reason NOT to use such a fix when it's handed to you on a silver platter.

Anyway, let's wait and see how FP will actually turn out. All discussion about it's capabilities is currently based on guesses and a few screenshots.

I think I just get disgusted the way people GUSH and DROOL over some closeups that mean squat for playing the table. Yeah, they look SHARP (something VP usually lacks at when you make things bigger due to the aforementioned poor scaling capability), but sharp is just one aspect. Until we see it in motion (remember it's REAL TIME 3D and will require a big CPU and an even bigger 3D graphics card to utilize even a decent amount of polygons and will vary per customer on how it performs to a larger degree than VP even), I don't think we can gage all that much.

Look at some of the recent commercial pinball game offerings out there. One of them is real-time 3D in nature and I don't recall it getting gushing reviews on gameplay, etc. I've got Williams Classics and they are prerendered and LOOK good, but are AWFUL to play. Looks aren't everything.

 

[shiva]

All good points. Me, I don't have the computer anyway, but even if I did, it's a wait and see attitude before I make up my mind. At the moment though, I have no intention to have my work translated to FP, there's just not enough information available to make such a decision, and to be honest, I'm not sure if FP will be so much better that I will make a translation. VP is good enough for me at the moment.

I guess when it comes out, then I will be more able to see what it can do.

 

[tiltjlp]

You hit the nail on the head Dude, who will buy tables made with FP when VP tables are free. At least if the FP tables can be compiled into stand alones, that would make a bit more sense. But I sure won't pay for FP and then pay for tables made with it, not with the average poor quaility of most originals. While looks are important, playability is the bottom line, and very few authors test their work enough, or at all, or at least it seems they don't. Besides the lack of quality, most tables are DL and played a few times, and then forgotten, since there are always new tables being released. I think Black is facing an uphill battle.

John ldman

 

[shiva]

You can't charge for a VPinMAME type game anyway. Againest all sorts of copyrights.

Orginals? Nope, in fact, there's no game out there that's at the level of a truly professional commercial game, like pro pinball, and I doubt we will see any one charging either. Only person that will be is Black, and I'm sure he already knows the possible problems it could cause with the companies. I expect that's why there's no VPM, and anyone that uses FP to do a commercial translation will be assuming any such risk. That's up to the companies themselves if they want to protect their licenses and copyrights under the circumstances of a commercial piece of software as opposed to a freeware program like VP.

 

[Mitchell]

I have some words now.

I notice there no ramp on FP. No spinners. What else that we didn't see on there? I forgot the rest.

 

[tiltjlp]

No ramps? Well, that's one thing in it's favor then.

John

 

[Phoenixx]

To be honest:
I think $lack would have been MUCH better off with taking money from the community to spend their time for making improvements to VP rather than doing his own little good-in-flyovers-looking leading-to-nowhere program.
Maybe he would have had at least a tiny little chance to get some of his beloved money,...$$$$$

But FP is bound to die for several reasons,...a dead born child,because the MASSES are interested in playing REAL table-recreations,and the masses are also those folks who check a program like this out mostly because they can get it for free somewhere,...
And if it was really worth getting for its tables and they had to pay for it,they would simply try to get a cracked version from e-mule or bittorrent,...
You see it on VPF everyday: Most of the folks in the "Who's online" list are the never posting leechers.
Do you think one of them would spend one stinking dime if they had to pay to play those tables?
I guess not,...they would probably simply try to leech it illegal instead or look for something else to leech instead,...
The net is FULL of games and stuff,...noone depends on anything like "FP",...and the majority of folks will certainly NOT spend a single cent for it,...maybe a hand full of die-hard originals fans,...
Maybe,...

However,...
If $lack calculated that all the now VP-using folks,(or at least 50% or 30% or even just 10%),would suddenly start to spend money,just to get a super-duper HIGH-END?-EDITOR with NO VPM support,(lol),and the option to get some home-brewn originals as they get *eventually* available,(noone knows if and who is gonna make some at all),...yeah,...i guess then he did a GIANT miscalculation,...

The whole system that he persues stinks anyway,and something like that just CANT work.
I just dont think that he plans to release tables himself.
At least certainly not on a regular base.
And creating an editor which noone really wants,(except some die-hard originals authors,maybe,but certainly NOT the masses because they wouldnt know what to do with it to save their lives anyway,because they want to PLAY TABLES,...and REAL VPM-SUPPORTED tables,that is),and then plan to let the good old VP authors PAY THEMSELVES FIRST,just TO BE ABLE to do the work which would make their program really worth to be bought by the table-wanting-majority afterwards??
WOW,...what a reward.
You are allowed to pay to get the editor to be able to make tables with it which again makes that editor worth to be bought by others because your tables are available for it?
Isnt that a nice thought out system?
Two words: THAT STINKS!!!
One as an author,used to give tables away for free,has to be *quite* stupid to ride that train,...IMO,...

And what if none of the now VP-authors authors is gonna MAKE more tables?
Can they have their money back then,or do they simply get a quick-guide on how to make some theirselves then?(LOL.)

Like i said,...this project is bound to die,...it just CANT work,...
AND IT STINKS TO HEAVEN!!

If $lack&Crew arent able to deliver,(at least a worthy pack of),HQ,really worth playing original tables with the editor,...who was to buy it anyway?
And why?
Maybe some die-hard original fans again,but certainly not the masses which are using VP now,...

That shot will definitely go off backwards,...if you ask me,...
They put a LOT of precious and time consuming development work into it,just to have a dead ship floating around at the end,...i mean that is something which needs not a lot intelligence to see,...if you are at least a little bit into the existing scene,...
Let them sell a handful of copies,..but that will most certainly be it,...

I guess it wont even cover the costs for the power their computers consumed in all that time,...

Maybe $lack learns at least a lesson,...

 

[tiltjlp]

Very good points Phoenixx. I'm one of those die hard VP folks you mentioned, but since I have over 1000 VP tables already, why pay for a new program, especially when the majority of originals aren't really that good, to be honest. Sure, I could buy it and make my bagatelle and flipperless recreations, but why, I make them now with VP, and don't use half of VP's features. And I sure wouldn't expect anyone to buy FP just beacuse I started making bagatelle and flipperless tables with it, since flipperless or any kind aren't the most popular tables around.

As I've said before, the only way I would ever consider buying FP is if it has an Auto-Code feature that really worked. That means that I'd be able to understand what I needed to change in the Auto-Code to make my tables work exactly the way I wanted them to, without bothering other authors for help. And since that isn't going to happen, I won't be buying. And while there are some wonderful originals, there aren't enough to make the program worth owning.

John

 

[bob]

I'm very interested in FP... If it has an .exe option for making executable tables and IF it has good ball physics, then it will be worth paying for. If it has these 2 things, I know I can create original tables that are just as good and maybe even better than what Just Andy sells at Wildsnake. I won't be giving them away, I don't expect the VP community to buy them either, but maybe I'll offer them on a CD or even try to sell my tables on eBay. I don't really want to do this, but I'm not paying Black money and then creating tables for free for him to make more money on.

So... If you're reading this Black, make the damn thing with an executable option so it's worth buying.

At this point, I'm bored and frustrated with VP table making, the program's crashing or freezing up when working on a table is just too much of a hassle for me to make completely new tables with, I've been updating some of my tables and may continue to do this while waiting for a new VP or FP.

 

[tiltjlp]

I sure can understand your frustration with VP locking up, It's been doing that more than ever for me. or maybe I'm just working on tables more often. The latest VP fix also locked up now and again, but not as bad as 6.1, so I guess I'll DL it again and try my luck. I have my doubts if there will ever be a VP 7, but I sure hope so, so you start making tables again Bob.

John

 

[PacDude]

Yeah, the ONLY way I'd consider buying FP is if it CAN make unfettered stand-alone executables that I could then SELL myself after making an original that way. In other words, if I'm paying for the editor, I want a cut of the pie too. It does look like it would make originals easier to make (with no real photos, standard parts would probably look better modeled with a real renderer). While I'm convinced I could probably make a commercial quality original table/playfield and maybe even rules, the one thing I could not do is a whole bunch of DMD animations, so I'd be limited to System11 style tables in the scoring regard. I don't know about making original playfield art either. 2D hand-drawn art is NOT my strong-suit and I obviously couldn't use copyrighted photos if I wanted to sell the table. Overall, selling tables via FP would seem unlikely at best and only authors that are good in all areas (or work in teams that would then have to split the earnings) might even possibly be able to make an original actually worth buying.

But even THEN, how would you stop people from sharing the executable table on the Net? In that model, Black would only get paid from authors and so he'd probably have to charge more for the program to make any money himself (like you would for a compiler, which are often expensive to make up for not getting mass volume sales, relatively speaking compared to games made WITH the compiler). I think Black knows he wouldn't get many sales that way and I think most authors know they wouldn't be able to make anything worth buying anyway. So that leaves charging the USERS for the program, which means authors get no cut and therefore have no incentive to make professional quality tables. So you end up with a system where you're paying for cheesy originals (with slightly better graphics on average, maybe) that you can otherwise get for free in VP. Black would have to make several high quality originals himself (or get his 'friends' to do it for him for free or a small flat cut) to include with FP to really make it worth buying for the end user. No matter how you slice it, I think FP makes for a tough sale.

Obviously, the best option for Black would be to have VPM support since people would probably buy it for recreations and I think FP would make some authors much better than with VP (e.g. look how much better Lio's example tables look in FP than his average VP work due to his rendering-friendly construction methods that don't look as good in VP). But then he'd be opening himself up to legal problems and I'm not convinced the end results in FP would be 'better' in practice than the best VP tables, only the "average" table might improve (e.g. shortcut authors would probably due better in FP since they could use pre-made parts whereas in VP they just use basic object shapes like cylinders to recreate posts, etc.)

So I think you'll eventually end up with a situation where people are saying, "Too bad, FP could have been cool but didn't seem to be well utililzed in the end" and the reasons will be the above. I"m not paying to do in FP what I can already do for free in VP and I'm not going to help Black make money while I work for free either. But I just don't believe Black would go for the executable model as he'd lose too much money that way. MAYBE if he made a separate version that COULD do that but cost more to the author to obtain, he could have both options, but then how many users would buy the regular FP if the best tables are for sale as stand-alones?

The whole situation is problematic at best, which is probably why we've never seen a commerical quality pinball construction kit offered as a commercial program before. I think there probably IS a market for such a thing, but it would have to be EASY to use and not script based programming (more like RCT is to running a theme park type interface). Black might be able to get to that level of usability by himself, but it would probably take a few more years to develop that level of automation to compare with what can be done with a straight visual basic script model. The scripting and graphic skill requirements is also probably why VP rarely gets good originals and only has a few people capable of producing a really great quality VPM table all by themselves. You have to have skills in number of different areas to do everything in VP and some are competing type areas in terms of left/right brain functions (e.g. graphics versus programming/logic).

 

[tiltjlp]

Well Dude, with Randy releasing a dog food version of VP7, are you going to revise your Randy Is Black conspiracy theory? Not saying I completely disagree with a lot of what you dreamed up, but maybe there needs to be a new chapter written, and you're just the guy to write it.

John

 

[HakyokuSeiken]

When I was debating on which music virtual studio to use, I ran into a similar debate...use tried and true program 'A' or go with up and coming program 'B'. Program 'A' had a track record of being used for many different styles of music, all of which were very good in capable hands...program 'A' had yet to prove itself...while both programs were already released (in this case, program 'b' is not...FP has yet to be publically available), it was clear that people of program 'A' had a leetist attitude and someone in program 'B's pen said something that I'd actually use to choose between the two...he said, "Use whatever you're comfortable with. If you like program 'a', then use it. If you like this program it, use it. If you think some other prog suits you better, then by all means, use it instead. In the end, it's your ability to feel comfortable doing what you love to do that counts and no matter which prog you use, your love will shine reguardless of shortcomings of that program.' I ended up choosing neither program and went with another I had discovered about 3 weeks later.

The point is, people, use what you love. Don't force your opinions on others for whatever reason. If you feel like you don't like one program or another for whatever reason, that's fine. No one's saying you're a douche. However, you ARE a douche if you start belittling someone else over their choice. I think this is one of the main reasons I'm not into VP (or FP) anymore...it's the leetist bullshit that goes on over both sides of the editor and in both vpm and originals arenas...i've been guilty of it too, being a douche and all, but recently, i feel enlightened...it's one of the reasons I'm not working on pins anymore. I don't enjoy it as much as I enjoy producing music.

do what you will...no one can take that away. just don't ruin it for others by telling them they're wrong for doing what they will...no one's being hurt in anyway, so why carry on about it?

Just a thought, I guess...and for the record, I still hang out at 'program b's forums simply because they're a bunch of cool fellas that put the product first, not their devotion to a program or method. They know i use a different prog and respect and in some cases admire it just as I do with their choice of production utilities. at the end of the day, we all have some groovy music to jam too...i just wish the pinball creation scene could find a similar path...

 

[elton]

As for me ... I'm looking forward to it. It offers possibilities for more pinball tables and this translates to more fun! If someone makes money out of it as well - good for them. I've already spent a considerable sum on ProPinball and other pinball games over the years and will no doubt pay for this. If VP had an associated cost I would no doubt have bought that as well. When I think of the money I've spent on total crap over the years - I'll judge FP once it's released. If authors wish to be paid for their time and effort I hope there is a means of supporting this because without them we'd be nowhere.
Appreciate some of the points of view expressed here and at VP but I for one look forward to FP being released. :D

 

[tiltjlp]

I'll DL it too, simply out of curiousity. But as hard a time I've had learning how to code VP, I would imagine FP would be like stsrting over for me. And if it doesn't run on my computer, I'm sure not going to upgrade just for one program, not with VP working OK for me. But I'll wait and see, I can't see the sense in getting all excited like some folks are when there's no idea when it will be releasesd.

John

 

[elton]

Wouldn't necessarily say I was excited - but I certainly am looking forward to it. It will be ready when it's ready!

Patience is a virtue.

 

[ValamirCleaver]

I wonder how it has been so long that Wanker hasn't shown up to flame PD or anyone else that he perceives as saying anything negative about FP?

Tom

 

[tiltjlp]

As Leon will tell you himself, he doesn't flame people, he enlightens them to the truth as he sees it. I think he's mentioed that his real life has gotten busy, so he usually only gets around here on off days or weekends. If you do a little looking, you'll find some great flames by our favorite grumpy Ausssie.

As for FP, I think Black and team made a mistake in announcing it as early as they did. With all the promotions, curiousity, and interest, there's no way it can live up to most peoples expectations. Besides, if folks start hounding him about it to much, and asking for special features, he could deep six the project. There are some who feel that's what he did to Randy and VP.

John

 

[ValamirCleaver]

As Leon will tell you himself, he doesn't flame people, he enlightens them to the truth as he sees it.

That's a rather euphemistic way of describing inflamitory opinion. Based on some of his posts I've read I'd replace "enlightens" with "forces upon".

As for FP, I think Black and team made a mistake in announcing it as early as they did. With all the promotions, curiousity, and interest, there's no way it can live up to most peoples expectations. Besides, if folks start hounding him about it to much, and asking for special features, he could deep six the project. There are some who feel that's what he did to Randy and VP.

John

All the more reason to take a wait and see attitude, before opening your wallet. I admit that the modeling appears impressive in the preview video, but realistically is there much need for moving the camera on the fly during play? When was it originally supossed to be ready, the end of last December? Then it got revised to the end of this March? For all us left in the dark "Future Pinball" might as well be "Vapor(ware) Pinball". For we know that might just be an animated 3D render.

Tom

 

[shiva]

No, it won't be vaporware, because in announcing it, and saying there is a charge for it, Black can't really just drop it when ever he wants to after a release. It's a commitment after all.
Personally, I don't care if there's a charge or not, didn't some of us buy Pinball Builder when it first came out?
If Black wants to charge for it, and it doesn't affect VP's license, then all the power to him. He has worked a long time on it after all, and he should get some compensation for all his work. I don't think it will be much anyway.
If people don't like it, then they don't have to buy it. PacDude is right though, people can sell their tables for FP if they wish, I don't think FP is under a freeware license agreement, and it's very common for people to sell their plugins for Photoshop as a example.