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I have given up my moderator duties here

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tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I have resigned as a moderator here at PN, since I disagree with the way PN’s rules are being interpreted by others on the PN staff. JonPurpleHaze is the site owner, and I would not ask him to compromise his principles, nor am I willing to compromise mine.

I have offered to remain on staff, since I am a co-founder of PN, but rather than take me seriously, JPH asked me to reconsider, which I don’t intend to do. If he eventually is agreeable to my request, I’ll still approve uploads, and I will continue to voice my opinions, as I have in the past. The only change will be that I’ll no longer moderate any of the forums.

What has caused this isn’t just one incident, but a series of situations, which in my opinion, have worsened over the past few months, starting with Neptune. The final episode occurred over the last few days. I banned ballsaver for a series of abusive posts he made in one of Pacdude’s WIP threads. The fact that the Dude is an administrator had no bearing in my decision. If any other member had been the target of such abuse, I still would have banned ballsaver.

To make matters worse, shortly after I had banned ballsaver Pacdude made a post that was every bit as bad as ballsaver’s had been. Making matters worse, in my opinion, is that the minimal word censors I had put in place, and which could have avoided all of this, have been removed. Since I had been told by fellow staff members that I had handled ballsaver’s banning incorrectly, I had few options, as I saw it. I could unban ballsaver, or I could step down as a moderator, and that is what I have done. The decision if I am to remain at PN is up to Jon.

To Jon’s request that I reconsider, I resent my original e-mail, adding that I wasn’t going to reconsider, and that he should either accept my request, or I’ll leave PN’s staff completely. There are some other issues involved here, but I don’t want to go into more detail. I simply can’t continue to moderate the PN forums in light of how the rules are being handled. The last thing I want to do is leave this site, which I co-founded with Jon nearly three years ago. But if Jon isn’t willing to accept my decision, I’m history. I had hoped that Jon would have taken me seriously, but since he didn't, I figured posting this will assure him that I am both sincere and serious.
 

marv75

Pinball Player
John, I am sure this can be handled another way...sure wouldn't want to lose you here...you're like the soul of this place! What you did even I agree with. And you know PD gets a bit rash sometimes. It's human nature...I hope you reconsider your decision. You're not dumbing down your principles, but sometimes changing with the times can be necessary. Maybe that's the way JPH is viewing it? I'll repeat what I've said many times...let's all get along and play pinball. Life is way too short, not too!:)
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
John, I also think you should reconsider and stay. I read those posts by ballsaver and he's not the first or is he going to be the last person to say that to PD. I like PD, but he's bold and brash and he will always just have to live with those types of comments. If the flamer goes on and on or posts flames in every thread, then we're talking about something different, but ballsaver only said his piece and maybe he's done with that particular episode.

You have posted many times at VPF about no bans and no edits and to come to PN for some lively discussion.... I hope you really don't want to turn PN into VPF2 as we don't need that. Please reconsider and consider the source.

I agree with Marv that PN is your home, but you're more like a renter than an owner, so sometimes you have to suck it up and live with it. Everything will look brighter in a few days and besides, someday you or I might need to say the same thing that ballsaver said to someone.

Hell, I have given just about everyone I like on the forums a shitty reply before, but that really doesn't mean that I don't like them or don't respect them, it's just the way I am. I think we're all adults and we don't need any word filters. Sometimes the British need to say cunt and I like to say pussy every now and then too. I don't need to say fuck, but occasionally I need to describe someone as a fuckin' idiot. I vote "YES" for John to stay :) Just remember you're dealing with a bunch of fuckin' idiots and join us, it's better than the alternative. :flower:
:dammit:
:closed:
:yourock:
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Thanks for your comment Marv. And thanks Jon, for realizing that I wasn't just blowing smoke. I'm still an Admin, I simply am no longer a Moderator. I had Jon change my identifier to Co-Founder to avoid possible confusion. My role here is exactly the same as it has been, minus the Moderating duties. Some principles can be worked around and some can't. This seemed like the best solution for me and for the site.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Well for christs sake.... An Admin is just a supermoderator with all the keys. Fuckin' idiots. :userfriendly:
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Interesting posts Bob and TMFP. Don't worry, you aren't getting rid of me that easily. I'm simply no longer a moderator, beyond that nothing has changed. Jon sees things in a much more liberal-minded way than I do, and I no longer felt like being a watch dog, or a baby sitter, both of which I have felt at times. Hopefully this minor change will reduce my level of stress, which should mean more tables, or maybe even some more member profiles, from me in the coming months.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Well, I'm surprised. Generally the idea is to conquer the universe, being an admin, you just have to subdue the other admin and it's all yours. Stepping down or relinquishing responsibilities in this case, is quite uncommon. :)
 

kristian

Pinball Wizard
I never understood censoring and "moderating" debates...or discussions.....or even flames among the regular members. But when someone with 2 posts comes here and his only purpose is to piss off the regulars and troll for flames... why shouldn't the moderators ban that kind of user?

Even VPFF had rules for trolls and spam.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
destruk said:
Well, I'm surprised. Generally the idea is to conquer the universe, being an admin, you just have to subdue the other admin and it's all yours. Stepping down or relinquishing responsibilities in this case, is quite uncommon. :)

I'm full of surprises. :p Well, you can't conquer the universe unless you rule the universe, and if you're not the "head cheese", you don't rule a thing other than yourself. I like to think of myself as a bit uncommon.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
kristian said:
I never understood censoring and "moderating" debates...or discussions.....or even flames among the regular members. But when someone with 2 posts comes here and his only purpose is to piss off the regulars and troll for flames... why shouldn't the moderators ban that kind of user?

Even VPFF had rules for trolls and spam.

That's pretty much the way I saw things kristian, but I was alone in that opinion. So I simply decided to stop beating my head against the wall. I'm sure the wall will feel better now.
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
If ballsaver didn't deserve a ban for his behavior, to me that speaks unfortunate volumes about the decision making processes that are going on here. Kudos to you tiltjlp for not putting up with it. There is a large difference between the debates that PacDude seems to frequently be involved in and and the attacks that ballsaver was lobbing. People who can't see the difference shouldn't be moderators IMO.

I'd be interested in hearing from "the other side" that thinks ballsaver's behavior was acceptable.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
"I'd be interested in hearing from "the other side" that thinks ballsaver's behavior was acceptable."

Indeed. And the staffers that say another staffer taking action to stop it is wrong. I would be very interested in hearing from them.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
I just read all of Ballsaver's posts (6) and unless they have been edited or something deleted, I don't see much to get excited about. Did I miss something or was something deleted?
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Some possible misconceptions,

I did take John's decision to stop being a Moderator seriously and asked him to reconsider yesterday.

As far as i know, word censors have never been active here, ballsaver never mentioned any word that would have activated one. In my request for John to reconsider, i offered to have a vote about activating word censors.

This place has been dangerously close to becoming a heavy handed, iron fist type of joint, User status decisions are supposed to be voted on by the Admins and votes are equal.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
i'm willing to bet both POV's were perfectly reasonable- both john's and the rest of the staff's.

you can never win when dealing with difficult users. people often miss the fact that there is frequently more than one reasonable solution, but no matter which one you choose you can expect to be questioned, doubted or damned either way.

once you get used to being called either a "lazy moron who is letting the site go to hell" or a "a fascist nazi who is out to take away all freedom" the job gets a little easier. :)
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
bob said:
I just read all of Ballsaver's posts (6) and unless they have been edited or something deleted, I don't see much to get excited about. Did I miss something or was something deleted?
Ok, there's nothing earthshaking in them, nothing that just flat out shocks you. But, if a moderator can't temporarily ban a user pending further review for quotes like the following, something's wrong:

Ahhhhhhh pd must have pms. Why don't you do everyone a favor and get laid. Maybe if you lose your virginity you wont be such a miserable piece of excrement. And you can shove white water where the soon don't shine for all I care bozo.
WOW a threat from fatdude!! If you think that would scare me or I would care about that in any way then you must have me confused with you. Unlike you I have a life out side of a silly little pinball program so go ahead and ban me. It would only prove that you are not only a loser but a hypocrite. Guess the mods at vpf were right hey.
Lets remember that tiltjlp didn't ban ballsaver outright for these comments, just temporarily pending review. If a moderator doesn't have that right, why have moderators at all? He certainly showed more restraint than I would have.
 

jpsalas

Pinball Wizard
I mean you acted right, tiltjlp. My wife is a moderator (op) in a few channels in IRC and from time to time she gets in trouble with other moderators because she banned someone. If a moderator can't ban someone when he/she thinks is needed, then, like GHoSTFaCe said, why have moderators at all?
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
To say either Ballsaver is banned or you give up your moderator duties, since you gave up your moderator duties where is Ballsaver? Or am I missing something? If Ballsaver is still banned hopefully someone explained why and that PacDude didn't do it. And if not, it's still disappointing to resort to banning people.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
At the request of PacDude, I have unbanned Ballsaver. Banning is considered a means of last resort here, not first resort. The offending posts should have been moved to the Junkyard and ballsaver given a verbal warning with any banning considerations posted to the Admin forums for consideration by all admin.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Ghostface, I'm not coming down on John and I'm not supporting Ballsaver... I'm also not commenting on the fact that PD states he will never make Whitewater because some newbie shouts "Whitewater" in 2 posts. These things are all meaningless to me, I misinterpreted John's 1st post as he was leaving and my only mission was to try to get him to stay.

I think everyone wants a looser environment here, but if traffic picks up, then eventually some moderating will be needed, but I certain hope it involves more than telling someone they're a piece of shit and then attacking their manhood as this is just kids stuff. Like I said before, if it is repeatedly done in a WIP or Release thread, then something needs to be done, but I thought PD acted like an ass first in this instance (by stating that he would never make Whitewate now because of ballsaver's post) and I would have probably tossed a few insults back at him also.

Moderating is a tough job, sometimes you make a decision that others don't like, I can live with that. I just want to hang out at a forums where we can all state our feelings and then move on to the next disagreement. I come here mostly because I like the people that post here, I'm really not a VP groupie or fanatic, I'm more of a fan of all the different characters that hang out in this community, plus it gives me a chance to practice my typing :)
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
Ghostface, I'm not coming down on John and I'm not supporting Ballsaver
Didn't think you were bob... You seem to have better judgment than that.

I think everyone wants a looser environment here
A "looser" environment yes, but not a "loser" environment. If a looser environment means people can just troll and flame at will and moderators aren't free to stop it, that's over the line for me. People need to learn to hold their tongues or accept the consequences. I can't tell you how many times I've decided to do that rather than to flame some jackass who in my opinion desperately needed/deserved it.

PD acted like an ass first in this instance (by stating that he would never make Whitewate now because of ballsaver's post)
Kind of apples and oranges, dontcha think?
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
A WIP thread is not a proper place for a table request let alone stating your are PISSED about it because I'm not working on it. Obviously, I'm joking about never making WhiteWater, but that kind of shit DOES wear old pretty fast. You have to remembe that I've gotten this kind of shit for YEARS now. Make this; do that. Kids jumping up and down should be treated like kids. I have a thread for REQUESTS and a poll there. That does not invite off-topic fits in a WIP thread.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
WHITEWATER!!!!!

....I don't even know what Whitewater looks like :)

I really thought that ballsaver was just joking at first and then you pissed him off, but you never know when these newbies are just VPF oldtimers with different screennames.
 

forchia

Pinball Player
John, if gostface quotes about ballsaver posts were unedited, I'm totally with you.
Even if sometimes I disagree with PD behaviour, I personally think such post were totally unacceptable by all means.
I don't see what's the problem banning such troublemakers, and if ballsaver didn't deserve a ban for his behaviour, I'm really missing something.
Whatever you decide to do as a moderator, you'll never be able to satisfy everyone. But you need to satisfy the most, at least :tongue:

I really hope you'll reconsider your decision, since you're a real asset for the pinball community.
 
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