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If I Could Appoint The Next VPF Administrator

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tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I’ve been accused, along with a select few others, of being too critical of the way vpf operates. Of practically hoping for and maybe plotting its demise or overthrow. And while I may be stating the charges against me a bit too strongly, I deny them, and even find them amusing. The person who keeps leveling those charges against me and others who feel there are better ways of doing things, claims that since vpf is a private forum, AJ and only AJ can determine how his forums will be ran. That may be true, but since AJ has adopted a Hands Off approach, I feel that since the rules governing vpf followed and enforced by administrators and moderators that I have a right to present my opinions and suggestions to the membership and those in daily charge.

But whenever I or my fellow reformers try to discuss what we feel are needed changes in rules and polices, one person rushes to the defense of “how things are and how they must remain. He not only expresses his opinion, or lack of same, but tends to label us “whiners, accusing us of P&Ming”, to use his own terms. And while he often admits that he agrees with our comments and suggestions, he keeps falling back on his belief that it’s a private forum and we have no rights, even those of us who have become supporting members.

Recently, The Loafer resigned as the main administrator due to personal family reasons. Another vpf staffer also left, and lio, the last remaining administrator wishes to surrender his duties. The moderators of vpf either are not as actively involved as they would need to be to assume the administrator role, or would probably not be suited for a leadership position. For that reason, I would like to make an unofficial nomination of the one person I feel would be perfect for lead administrator at vpf. I am nominating one Leon Spalding, whose username is Leo Wanker, the person I lock horns with on a regular basis, the gentleman who has nearly accused me of treason.

And yes, I’m quite serious in nominating Leon. I think he would make a wonderful administrator at vpf, for many of the reasons we seldom see eye-to-eye. Leon seems to be a person of strict ethical code, someone who would equally enforce the rules no matter what, and no matter who. Leon wouldn’t play favorites, he’d tell his best friend that he was out of line, just as he would and has done with me. He would enforce all the rules, even those he didn’t happen to agree with, because as he likes to say Rules Are Rules. He would explain the what and why for of his decisions, and he would make sure that all fellow vpf staffers follow all the rules as closely as he would.

But we’d all benefit from Leon being the top administrator at vpf. He would need to reign in his debating and fussing at anyone he didn’t completely agree with. Since the rules don’t forbid discussions and polls, he would have to suffer them, because as the top administrator, he would have to be impartial. He would no longer be able to label everyone who didn’t agree with him a rebel, a whiner, a P&M artist. Leon would need to become the Teddy Bear he probably is in real life. Sure, he’s still disagree with me 97.25% of the time, and let me know why. But at least he’s have to do so in a much more pleasant way.

The bottom line to all of this is simple. I truly believe Leon would make an outstanding administrator for vpf. And while I doubt he would accept the position if he were asked at least now he knows that I respect him, although I seldom agree with him. If nothing else, this might leave him just a bit speechless for fifteen minutes. Think of it, fifteen minutes of peace and quiet. Now doesn’t that sound golden?

John/tiltjlp
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
oky doky then
There are three levels of authority at VPF, (as I have been informed)

we have AJ as top dog, nothing wrong there

As admin staff there are two, from what I can tell these are the guys who choose the next level, and as far as I know, they are still alive and doing what they do

Then there are the moderators, these are the guys who have to do the dirty work of reading every post and dealing with members problems
as with most forums a moderators job is seldom apreciated

from what i understand, from a moderator, they seem to go more to the consevative side, they shy away from 'boat rockers'
Also many of the people whom you may feel to nominate, would decline, as they feel that a moderator has to doubly watch what they say, and may not on all occaasions speak what is on their mind, that at all time they must tow the company line.

And after the extreme flaming that Mr Fixx recieved for making ONE mistake, who would want the position?
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
oky doky
what does AJ do that upsets you?
He doesnt answer questions? Hey, that is the internet for you, I wish sometimes I could do that in my shop
He is a bit slow on opening up spaces for new tables? Hey, he provides the site for free, you gets what you pay for

I am not trying to be an AJ fanboy, but some people seem to picture him as evil incarnate.
 

ValamirCleaver

Pinball Wizard
Just like John has stated in the past and used to reference in his sig I don't like the idea of having those intimately involved with Future Pinball in leadership positions at VPF because of potential conflict of interest issues. Anytime that someone posts anything that could be possibly interpeted as being anyway, shape or form negative of Future Pinball / Black, Wanker will invaribly show up to shout the poster down. If Black thinks he or FP need to be defended I don't see why he can't do it himself.

It's also readily appearant to myself that certain individuals are given much leeway in what that are allowed to inflamitorilly post.

AJ being replaced at VPForums is about as likely as you being replaced here Jon. AJ ultimately pays the bill at VPF as you do here, so it's not going to happen. The only real possiblity is that donations there dry up, but short of a majority of top authors not allowing the uploading of their tables there and hosting somewhere else that is readily accessible, that's not likely either. I have a feeling that is the major reason while the mods don't what the linking of torrent trackers, it allows one to download large amounts of tables without having to donate, not the warez reason that are stated. The ROMs hosted at VPF are technically warez. So if you want to sqeeze off the donations AJ receives you would have to inform newbies of the availiblity of torrents before they donated to VPF.

Tom
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
ValamirCleaver said:
]John, I thought humor was supposed to go in The Back Fence.

Tom

Leon is a great person and one of the best folks I've ever met online, My appreciation of Leon to this "community" can't be measured...

Who'd be better?

I'll suggest None of the current "Gottlieb fiends" (MRFixx, Gottlieb, Kinsey, Lio, et all) and AJ must be replaced or this discussion means didly squat.

Bob, It would be Impossible to have boring forums with Bob in charge..

StevOz, The dude is incredible, disagree with him? It don't matter..He is Honest.

shiva, I was a member at MSN, shiva's forums were Fine at hippie.net..

tiltjlp, Would be an automatic selection by anyone that value's Pinball!

Greywolf, This wolf is keen and is VPF's best hope for mending bridges.

:safesofa:
TheManFromPOST"]oky doky
what does AJ do that upsets you?
He doesnt answer questions? Hey, that is the internet for you, I wish sometimes I could do that in my shop
He is a bit slow on opening up spaces for new tables? Hey, he provides the site for free, you gets what you pay for

I am not trying to be an AJ fanboy, but some people seem to picture him as evil incarnate.

Imagine a webmaster that cares and is active, VPF staff seems like a bunch of Gottlieb clones to me, the only difference? Gottlieb can do stuff on his site, he has his minions do what they can to AJ's..

Why stick-up for AJ, the dude don't care about VP, he seems to care about VPM and donations.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Just a interesting stat, until last month, no one was ever banned, or put on RO throughout shivaSite's history, and that was over 7 years (at least by me, I don't think the staff has either)
I've also lost less staff members in that 7 years than VPF has lost in a year, some are still around since the beginning, John has 3 years now (?) and even the newer staff members are still there after a year and a half. Thay may not do anything much, but then, they don't have to, because everything is so clear, and they know they can rely on me if I am needed, and I accept responsibility, instead of allow others to do it for me.
VPF has had what, 5,6 admins in four years? How many different staff members? The problems at VPF will just continue, unless something is done to fix the main problem. As much as we all hate to admit it, the vast majority of the community still chooses VPF, but I also looking at my site, VPO, and this site and wondering why VPF isn't more like that. It's not a case of could be better, it's a case of it should be better
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
shiva said:
Just a interesting stat, until last month, no one was ever banned, or put on RO throughout shivaSite's history, and that was over 7 years (at least by me, I don't think the staff has either)
I've also lost less staff members in that 7 years than VPF has lost in a year, some are still around since the beginning, John has 3 years now (?) and even the newer staff members are still there after a year and a half. Thay may not do anything much, but then, they don't have to, because everything is so clear, and they know they can rely on me if I am needed, and I accept responsibility, instead of allow others to do it for me.
VPF has had what, 5,6 admins in four years? How many different staff members? The problems at VPF will just continue, unless something is done to fix the main problem. As much as we all hate to admit it, the vast majority of the community still chooses VPF, but I also looking at my site, VPO, and this site and wondering why VPF isn't more like that. It's not a case of could be better, it's a case of it should be better

Some very good points Big Blue. The only moderating I've ever done at shivaSite involved three doctored images by that young kid UTplayer. All three images had racial and ethnic slurs added to them, and I moved them to the Admin thread for review, plus I wrote to the kid and explained why they had been moved. The staff decided that all three images should be deleted, and I told the kid he could repost the images minus the slurs, but he declined.

All that needs to be done at vpf in my opinion is for the rules to be applied fairly to everyone. While everyone should be considered a friend, there should be no Special Friends. Until everyone at vpf is considered equal, there will be problems.

As for Jon's list of candidates, I agree with everyone except myself. There's no way AJ would want anyone to be an admin at three of the four forums, and besides, unless I had full power, I wouldn't do it. But I'll add another name to your list, Vadimer Cleaver would be excellent too, I think, because he keeps a level head and an open mind.

And Tom, while I might have used humor to make my point, I am serious about Leon. You don't have to agree with someone to realize that they are both honorable and sincere. And I can be pretty sure that no one could influence Leon, he is his own man, and come hell or high water he isn't about to change. So why not use his bull-headedness for the benefit of the entire community.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Heh John, sorry, but if there's anyone with the gold star that AJ wouldn't want to see there, it's me. :)

I'm happy at my site and I certainly wouldn't put up with the same thing that ever other admin there has had to have, I'm sure everyone has already figured that one out. ;)
 

Loafer

Pinball Nudger
Lio is a Gottlieb "fiend"?!? Jon, you need to educate yourself; seriously.

Good choices mentioned in this thread.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I would imagine the list of people AJ would have to pick from for new admins might be getting slim. If you eliminate newbies, just for the fact that they haven't been around long enough, former staff, and folks you know AJ would say No Way to, there can only be a handful of candidates left. I think Mr Staypuft does a fairly decent job as a moderator, but he seems too nice of a guy to get tough if he needed to. So by process of elimination, vpf could morph into the new vpff, simply because there's no one left to Keep The Peace over there.

Or maybe AJ would actually have to find time in his Busy Schedule and tend to matters the way the admin at the other forums do already. Faced with that prospect, I wonder if he would give more authority to his staff?

John
 

ValamirCleaver

Pinball Wizard
John, while appreciate your vote of confidence I honestly don't believe that I have the paitence nor objectivity to make a suitable mod. I would have told Shadow and Shockman very curtly to either cut it out or leave, then I would have booted them the next time they acted up. I wouldn't want to have to wait for AJ to decide to respond before taking meaningful action. I also don't agree with some of the more draconian rules there. I vastly prefer shivaSite.

Tom
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I had a fairly good idea you wouldn't want the job Tom. I agree with you on how those two should have been handled. But like shiva has mentioned before, the rules for both sites are nearly identical, it's all in how they are applied. And of course the fact that Big Blue is there, and that the admin have the authority to take action on their own, withing reason, without waiting for permission.

I've been on staff at shivaSite for 3 1/2 years, and have gotten to know, like, and respect shiva. But if he decided to start enforcing the rules the way they are handled at vpf I'd leave in a flash. All it takes is a bit of common sense. Rules aren't that important, it's a matter of the members having enough respect for themselves not to make fools of themselves. We have fewer rules here than probably any forum anywhere, and we never have a problem. I'm sure folks know that in spite of not having a ton of rules neither Jon nor I will stand for a lot of garbage.

It also helps I'm online enough to head off any problems that might pop up, and Steve not only knows how we want things done, but he has the common sense to know what a problen is, and isn't. Big Blue, it looks like you might be the last person left for the job. :p

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
You must have a forums run by someone who will let creative people be creative. At the present time, VPF is fantastic, I can't believe you guys are trying to turn all the forums into the same boring ass format.

I wouldn't mind being a Super Moderator at VPF, but I wouldn't want to be an Admin or a normal moderator and since you have to start at the bottom, I'm not interested. I even offered to be The Amazing Moderator once, but no one was listening. :)
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
All this talk about moderating and administering what? 20-40 active people? It's like discussing mob control for a Bible study meeting....

Just imagine all the tables that could be made if people were working on them isntead of bickering about nothing.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Hiya Pacdude, hey I just released my second table, have you tried it?

You can find the latest version in this forum.

I used some of your tips and techniques. The slope is set at 8 for faster gameplay, the mechanical sounds are as loud as the rest of the table, I used the LED reel technique, scripted it from from scratch, the TILT lights on the backdrop, made from scratch of course and I added similar HI score lights.

So go on have a go and critic it. ;)
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
StevOz said:
The pinball sites are not in opposition.
They are not?
The way tiltjlp and shiva carry on you would think they were

Whilst shiva did have a legitimate complaint about AJ, the way he has carried on, I feel he goes too far edited

too often people have attacked the man and not the actions
grown men should know better


EDIT
Mr Shiva, I got up a good head of steam, and went a little (a little?) too far with my comments towards you, I apologize.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
TheManFromPOST said:
StevOz said:
The pinball sites are not in opposition.
They are not?
The way tiltjlp and shiva carry on you would think they were

Whilst shiva did have a legitimate complaint about AJ, the way he has carried on, he has seen the last donation from me

too often people have attacked the man and not the actions
grown men should know better

No, we aren't in opposition, but maybe friendly competiton to be a bit better than the other guys. Of course "better" is subjective, so different might be a more correct term. I don't wnat PN to simply be a clone of the other forums. And I only have a few issues with the way AJ does things, and they're related.

I feel AJ should be more involved. There are many times I'll see him logged in at vpf, but he seldom posts comments or opinions. And if he isn't going to be involved he should give decision making power to his admin, otherwise they are little more than floor walkers. AJ has the right to run vpf as he sees fit, but whatever rules there are should be applied evenly and fairly to every member, and this id not the case. If vpf were a bakery, everything offered for sale would be stale.

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Once again... If VPF is so horrible, why does almost everyone go there and actually post? If PN and shivasite are so great... Why does almost no one go there and post?
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
tiltjlp said:
I feel AJ should be more involved.
so who are you to tell another man how to run his life?
tiltjlp said:
There are many times I'll see him logged in at vpf, but he seldom posts comments or opinions. And if he isn't going to be involved he should give decision making power to his admin, otherwise they are little more than floor walkers.
I see your point here, but as you say.......
tiltjlp said:
AJ has the right to run vpf as he sees fit, but whatever rules there are should be applied evenly and fairly to every member, and this id not the case.
other than a few (a handfull of examples over the last 12 months), please show me all this unfair treatment of members.
I think that you and shiva get an excellent deal at VPF
You are both allowed to promote your websites at VPF
You are both allowed to solicite donations at VPF
you are both allowed to voice your opinioins about how things are (in your view) so horribly unfair and poorly run at VPF
tiltjlp said:
If vpf were a bakery, everything offered for sale would be stale.

John
???????
I see new tables, new enhancements on old tables, new authours (davidsss), more topics of discusion.
But this is not good enough for you?

I also agree with Bob, if VPF is such a horrible place, why is it so busy
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
TheManFromPOST said:
tiltjlp said:
I feel AJ should be more involved.
so who are you to tell another man how to run his life?
tiltjlp said:
There are many times I'll see him logged in at vpf, but he seldom posts comments or opinions. And if he isn't going to be involved he should give decision making power to his admin, otherwise they are little more than floor walkers.
I see your point here, but as you say.......
tiltjlp said:
AJ has the right to run vpf as he sees fit, but whatever rules there are should be applied evenly and fairly to every member, and this id not the case.
other than a few (a handfull of examples over the last 12 months), please show me all this unfair treatment of members.
I think that you and shiva get an excellent deal at VPF
You are both allowed to promote your websites at VPF
You are both allowed to solicite donations at VPF
you are both allowed to voice your opinioins about how things are (in your view) so horribly unfair and poorly run at VPF
tiltjlp said:
If vpf were a bakery, everything offered for sale would be stale.

John
???????
I see new tables, new enhancements on old tables, new authours (davidsss), more topics of discusion.
But this is not good enough for you?

I also agree with Bob, if VPF is such a horrible place, why is it so busy

I have never tried to tell AJ how to run his life, I've only voiced my opinion that he should be more involved in HIS OWN site. And if I were to cite every case of their rules not being applied fairly I'd be accused of dredging up old history.

As for donations, neither Jon nor I have ever asked to such for PN at any other site, nor even here aside from the Pay Pal link. Yes, I promote PN there, at the invitation of every new admin. And vpf is free to promote here also. I also do not feel that I have ever said that vpf is Horrible, only that it could be improved. When suggestions are made how PN can be improved, Jon and I actually consider the suggestions, and often make the asked for changes.

As for new authors such as David, he isn't the property of vpf, and actually posted his wip on the Developer's Board at shivaSite. Also the vast majority of tables discussed at vpf are VPM, so it's not a balanced presentation. If I thought vpf was as horrible as you try to make it sound I think it is, I'd quit going there. I simply feel it can be better, as all VP forums could be.

But I'm amazed how this thread has been turned into a defense of vpf, when my purpose of starting it was to foster open and honest discussion of who might make a decent Admin at vpf. Nothing in my original post said anything against vpf as such, but rather offered my opinion why Leon would make a good vpf Admin.

I also think that you, TMFP might make a decent Admin at vpf, if only you weren't so defensive about it. I admire and appreciate your loyalty, but in your own manner are beginning to sound a bit like Leon, he focuses more on indivdual attacks where your comments are less inflamatory. Your passion could be put to good use.

John
 

Rockinghorse

Pinball Player
OK.

My turn,

How nice it is to see such lively debate about such a lazy subjet. I say lazy, because that's how I see the Admin/Mod situation at VPF. Not lazy as in they aren't active, but lazy in that the rules set and it's application is lazy. The reason for this isn't for me to say, nor is the solution (mostly). My main point would be that there needs to be a clear and decisive head of government which they don't appear to have at the moment. Now that Head could be made up of multiple heads but each one must be able to rule on behalf of the others. If an error in judgement occurs through actions of one then the rest need to act to correct the error in accordance with the rules of the site.

Now, after reading that piece of gobble de gook you might think.... What the?

Well, it just seems that there are not very many consistant decisions made on a whole at VPF that each of the members (and guests) would agree are fair. This doesn't mean that decisions are not made, they just seem to lack conviction. Now I know that the main aim is to be a bit of everything to everybody, but that's where it falls down. IMHO the site itself runs quite well. The Mod's seem to get the reading/fixing of posts pretty right but when it comes to that scary part of deleting a forceful members words, they falter. A bit of affirmative action is called for. Be fair to all members and don't turn a blind eye to some who are a bit tough. There is a line you shouldn't cross no matter who you are and if a post goes over, then that person and post need to be dealt with ASAP.

We at VPO haven't been in action long enough to have had too much trouble but at this point I'd say we are doing a fairly good job of self governance. The admin/mod's are quite certain of each other and the members see that we are active. We even point out each others errors publicly without fear or favour. As for some comments made in this thread, Miss K has IMO found her true calling as a Moderator at VPO. The site relates to her true vocation with VP and that is Originals. She might have been a bit unsure of herself at VPF (my words not hers) but with us she has found a home. She is a very important part of our team.

Anyway,

Bag me if you like but that's my say.

C Ya

RH
 
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