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Neptune Holographics pinball games archive

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
I would like to know who this is as they have some of my tables on there that I have tried to kill because they suck so bad and some of them are outdated versions. I see they have Trigon for those who were looking for it (this should make shiva happy) and they have Kinsey's tables which should make her happy too. I see no difference in this site than someone who sells tables on eBay, they have no rights to the tables and haven't asked for permission.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
bob said:
I would like to know who this is as they have some of my tables on there that I have tried to kill because they suck so bad and some of them are outdated versions. I see they have Trigon for those who were looking for it (this should make shiva happy) and they have Kinsey's tables which should make her happy too. I see no difference in this site than someone who sells tables on eBay, they have no rights to the tables and haven't asked for permission.

I agree comletely Bob, and wrote to him and told him to remove both my and Will's tables. I PMd Kinsey and was going to send you a PMtoo Bob. I don't have a problem if someone asks me for permission and I can check out the site, but I don't want people doing so behind my back. This guy is an eBay seller, not of our tables, but I have my doubts about having my tables hosted on a site that is partly commercial. Thanks for letting us know Jon. I'll send shiva an e-mail with a link.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Oh yeah, I got the message, thanks John. I don't have to say to people just how "pleased" I am to see yet another leech trying to make a buck on other people's work. Very bad timing for him I would say, considering recent comments made by myself here recently.
This is not acceptable, and I don't care if you as a author have a table there or not, everyone should send a email. I certainly did (make sure contact is in the subject line, and remove the "X" in the names of the email addy.)
I sent a copy of my email to John, but maybe if other people want, they can use this as well, especially for the next time this will happen (and it will)

SUBJECT LINE: Customer Unauthorized distribution of pinball product
TO: dragon@dancingdragonguitars.com
CC: contact@neptuneholographics.com

It has come to my attention that you are offering downloads of Visual Pinball products without permission, including my tables. I have full copyright control of these tables, and it is noted as such in the distribution file, as well as the script that permission is not given to distribute the table without my express written permission. The other authors that I have talked too already also feel the same way.
The only person that has the right to do this is me, and that is also noted in the legal statement.
I would very strongly suggest that you remove my products, The game Trigon, and any other products that I have created, immediately, or I will pursue the matter legally.
You did not ask for permission in the first place, and it appears you are trying to sell it on ebay, or something at least. None of the Visual Pinball games are to be sold at the very least, and most of us would like to be asked at least. The entire community is getting very tired of people trying to make money off of our work, and we have all agreed that any future infingments will be persued.
We are not companies, just a bunch of people that love the game enough to spend very large amounts of our time creating them. We don't sell them, we don't ask for anything other than people enjoy them. But this and other incidents just means that more and more of us are leaving, or not producing tables. Why should we do all the work, out of love, just to see someone else try and make a buck?
Remove the tables, and don't offer them as collections or for sell. We will enforce our rights then. I certainly will with mine, and I know that quite a few other authors will as well. The tables are available for free, but that was what everyone in my community agreed to, just for updates if anything else.
I expect to see those tables removed shortly. I can understand that you are a website, and traffic is important and all, but there's a way to do things, and it's not this way.

Paul Sanderson
 

davidsss

Pinball Wizard
I have no problem with them putting my tables up on the net for free, but if they sell CDs of them then I have a big problem. The call for donations is a bit too insistent for my liking - looks more like they are asking you to pay or go away. However, one revealing thing about their plea for cash is how they say the bandwidth is costing them money. Maybe if any of us have spare bandwidth we can download heaps of stuff from them and make them pay for the bandwidth, or even overload their servers. In fact, I know little about this but, would it be worth trying to synchronise a download to crash their servers or would that be illegal or something?

DS
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
Oh, man, am I mad!

Not about the topic, but about the fact that, on this server, by the time I'd finished I'd gotten logged out and couldn't get my letter back again!

I'd seen this site once before, they were thinking of doing this...but hadn't made up their minds yet and so I put them on the back burner...till now.

So, to put it succinctly, and at the risk of becoming anathema on here...

I don't know what you guys are so upset about. You've been creating ostensibly free works, disseminating them freely...and now you're upset because someone is doing that?

I don't see anything on that site about charging for anything. Yeah, he's asking for donations to the site...but everyone does that.

As for copyrights, they've gone through so many changes over the last thirty years or so that I'm not even sure what's what anymore. I do know that some of those changes haven't been for the good...movie studios suddenly have gotten reownership of old movies that we'll never see again, because the studios know they'll never make a buck off of them, even though they're valuable historically.

I can understand you guys getting upset about someone suddenly taking your tables and running with them, but come on...I'll bet when you made them you would only have wished someone would've been willing to host them for free!

So I see only a few valid arguments:

1. Not being given credit. (I just looked in there for a minute, can't remember if the site gave you proper credit or not.) On the other hand, since one of your biggest arguments is that this was "primitive work", I should think you'd be glad not to get credit.

2. Someone making money off of your work. Like I said, I don't see that here (my apologies if I've missed some fine print, or something). They seem to be giving it all away for free...which is what you intended in the first place. Plus, despite your reservations about it being "primitive" work, as far as the vp artform goes, it's historically important. I don't understand your being ashamed of it...it was a part of an ongoing history.

3. Someone changing your works. They're not doing that.

Sorry, this is so very lame compared to what I'd originally written (wish I could use the back-icon and find it again, as I've done on other sites...but it's gone forever here) that I sincerely apologize that this is so crude to what I'd originally written, and barely scratches the surface. But, even after that (or maybe at least to validate the time I'd written that!) I felt I had to send something along.

Believe me, I have nothing but respect for the creators. I think you guys deserve every consideration...and that, no matter what, if you tell them you want your tables OFF, they should remove them. Period.
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
that is the point that these guys are making tudnut
they all know that if they put a table up at VPF, VPU,VPO, PN, or IRP, that it will also be removed if they ask
it is a trust thing
True, we may fight and disagree, and call each other names, but if an author wanted a table removed from one of these core sites, then their request will be honored

This new guy is already hosting tables that authors no longer wish to remain in public
will he remove them?, is he selling them?

TMFP
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
TheManFromPOST said:
that is the point that these guys are making tudnut
they all know that if they put a table up at VPF, VPU,VPO, PN, or IRP, that it will also be removed if they ask
it is a trust thing
True, we may fight and disagree, and call each other names, but if an author wanted a table removed from one of these core sites, then their request will be honored

This new guy is already hosting tables that authors no longer wish to remain in public
will he remove them?, is he selling them?

TMFP

Good post as far as you go TMFP. And as to the question Will he remove tables upon request, the answer is obviously not. I wrote and asked that my tables be removed and got no reply. So I did a bit more exploring on his site. He is claiming that since I offer them elsewhere, and since I have not Applied for a copyright for each of my 80 releases that he has the Right to host them.

Well, copyright doesn't work exactly like that. Copyright is made by the act of creation, be it word, artistic, or electronic. Trust me on this, i'm a published writer so I know these things. And yes, I do feel I have the right to control where My tables are hosted, and to be asked before someone simply decides to put them up somewhere secretly, so to speak.

I upload my tables to the sites I want them on, here, VPO, IRP, and when it was active, shivaSite. Should other VP members start sites to host table, I may or may not upload my work. But I don't want my work hosted without my permission, and not on a site that is at least partly commercial. Check that site out more closely and you'll see that indeed it is partly commercial.

Plus I'm 99.9% sure that he is falsely stating that IRP asked him to host any tables, since they know they don't have the authority to give permission for anyone to host any work other than tables made by IRP team members. I have permission, because I asked, to host every table here, and I asked out of respect. I expect and demand nothing less from anyone else.

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
I have 3 tables at IRPinball, I never uploaded them there, I never gave anyone permission to upload them... I have never said anything because they are recreations and I like IRPinball :) I also believe that IRPinball would remove them if I asked, but I'm not asking that as I don't really mind them there.

I have a couple of Original tables that I have never uploaded anywhere except to my site, I never wanted them anywhere else and I feel that I have a right to ask this as I have spent roughly 2,000 hours making tables for my friends and the VP community, not the world wide web.

I may not be able to keep my tables off other sites, but I feel that reputable VP sites should at least respect authors enough to NOT post links to sites that don't respect authors. In other words, I would like to request that JPH remove the link to this site.

Bob
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
I've been bewildered at these responses and was going to try to let it ride, I agree with tudnut's post, Neptune is Not selling your tables, can you download..? who is He? His Address is on the webpage.

My history with Neptune?
He emailed IRP last year (Leon, forwarded to me) about being bummed out that IRP stopped hosting VP Original Tables (a long time ago..) and being forced to register at shivaSite and VPO to download "excellent" original tables. I had previously set The Magic of Flipperless (Pinball Nirvana) Up to allow anonymous downloading on purpose because, IRPinball has also never required registrations and/or restict d/l's to anyone while hosting Original's from EveryOne without Permission.

Many Tables have been removed from IRP (druadic and obx) and Pinball Nirvana (Kinsey, several different times and therefore, banned), I still refuse to host anything that is exclusive to PN and am ashamed to be a part of this new and improved download permission bs.

shivaSite asked permission from every author? No..
shivaSite required registration, Yes
PN requires author's permission? No
PN requires registration? No
IRP requires Permission? No
IRP requires Registration? No
VPO requires Permission? No
VPO requires Registration? Yes
VPF requires Permission? I don't know
VPF requires Registration? Hell Yeah, they give unlimited d/l's for a donation and previously used the bait to speed up the registration Process

Should any VP site be required to contact over 100 authors? No!
tiltjlp thought Neptune's possible d/l site was great last December, what has this passion become?

The Tables are being freely traded on Usenet, keep them to yourself if you want to restrict them and think of that 1st link to VP stuff, mine was at the old MSN forums and I was thrilled beyond description, there were only a few pinball games to play and they were excellent!
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Crazy stuff hey Jon, once I put a table on the net that's it I no longer have or even expect any control of it's distribution, wierdo's. :p
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
It's history.

I'm a songwriter, and a (well, aspiring) guitarist. Have been for about FORTY years now.

Yeah, I understand the copyright laws (or at least had a pretty good understanding of them until recently; nowadays they're changing every other year!).

In the end, as a consumer, be it of music, books, games, whatever-you-like, those laws are more prohibitive than good.

More often than not, they're leaving the future of the art works in the hands of corporate types who don't give a damn about history, or legacies, or (certainly!) art.

They're being used to only further profit for companies...if something will turn a profit, then they'll use it and promote it to the maximum...if something won't, well, your contribution will remain completely stagnant. In effect, we're being totally locked out of those little parts of history that the corporations own, and won't allow us. (This might change soon, by the way, given the accessibility and increasing technology of the internet...thank God!)

But ANY artform has a history, a history of tries and failures, one of defeats and successes. Without the history of the almosts...we don't have a way of knowing about and achieving the there's! That's what's so sad about the movie thing (I'm a movie fanatic, by the way)...and I see that happening now, here. Sure, quite possibly Griffith or Eisenberg (or, in more modern times, Speilberg or Scorsese) might be ashamed (for no real reason) of their early efforts...but they did what they could do, under the circumstances...and, usually, they did magnificently. (If not as good as would be done under better circumstances.)

I was under the impression that everyone here was just interested in playing with the program, and releasing free examples for everyone else to try.

It's a GREAT program, and ALL of the tables released by all of you are commendable, and worthy of being kept available. If the technology has advanced since then, so be it. You did the best you could with what you had, and are a part of the history of vp.

Why on earth would you argue about someone keeping a table on, as a legacy?

(Of course, with the exceptions I detailed in my note above.)

The earliest songs I wrote are complete CRAP...I admit it.

Still, I'd be embarrassedly humbled to find that someone was suddenly finding such value in them that they were hosted somewhere, free of charge.

Which makes me wonder...just what on earth do you guys really WANT?
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
tudnut said:
Which makes me wonder...just what on earth do you guys really WANT?

Just a little respect.

Why do you think there are only a handful of authors left? Because they all got pissed and left. The people who don't care if they piss off authors are usually the people who don't play the tables anymore and don't give a shit if anyone makes them or not.

I know I can't keep my tables off the whole web, but I can still tell you that bullshit link upsets me.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I could tell you of several other places on the net where originals are hosted without 'permission', though out of respect I won't as I don't want to upset you. :)

Rest assured I still play VP tables all the time, it's why I'm so slow at making them. Also I myself would never distribute tables that others have asked not to be distributed, though at the same time I'm not about to try and close down any other site which distributes tables for free. The way I see it the further and wider VP tables are freely distributed the better. Then perhaps everyone will come to know you can grab these great games for free and laugh at any fool who would try to profit from them.
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
Bob, if there was ANYONE on here that had earned respect, it's you. Your tables are wonderful! (Even if they're all add-a-balls!)

As a matter of fact, TAF is one of the best games I've ever played...EVER.

But...given a few more years, a few more technological changes, even THAT game will seem simplistic, or way behind the times.

Early 50's games are so very different than what we have now. Would you want them erased entirely?

Same with early 70's games (in my opinion, the EPITOMY of pinball). Should they just cease to exist?

I'd never even want the late 70's, early 80's games to disappear, much as I dislike a lot of them. They're a part of history.

So are you, Bob. By adding to us, by giving us your games, you're a part of vp history.

You're asking your pins to be deleted? Why?

Don't be ashamed of it...revel in it.

Love the fact that there's a site that finds such worth in all of us that it's willing to post the old games.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
bob said:
tudnut said:
Which makes me wonder...just what on earth do you guys really WANT?

Just a little respect.

Why do you think there are only a handful of authors left? Because they all got pissed and left. The people who don't care if they piss off authors are usually the people who don't play the tables anymore and don't give a shit if anyone makes them or not.

I know I can't keep my tables off the whole web, but I can still tell you that bullshit link upsets me.

Resp...Ect? You sir, have always have my utmost respect I love the Mibs version of that table! I don't know the name of it because i can't remember who you gave it to..or where to find it, Can I register somewhere to be an approved d'l dude?

wtf? that is warped...Your Tables are available to everyone (Thank the Lord, and I'm not religious) that has a internet connection, Get over the stuff and realize Usenet has everything, For Free and Thankfully without your permission.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Look at it this way. I've written professionally for years, and when I sell an article, or did in the past, the entire publication it appeared or appears in is copyrighted, but I retain my copyright and ownership of my work. The same is true for the Member Profiles I wrote over the past 3 1/2 years. Just because I posted them on selected Intenet sites doesn't negate my ownership or copyright of them. The same is true of the table us authors make.And as such, we should, but don't, have control over where they are hosted. But we can't really contol that any more than we can control all the SOBs selling CDs of outdated tables on eBay. So at least give us the right to bitch and complain about the sites that don't have enough class to ask permission. Every table hosted here I have personally received permission to host, so it's not an impossible task.

John
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
tiltjlp said:
Look at it this way. I've written professionally for years, and when I sell an article, or did in the past, the entire publication it appeared or appears in is copyrighted, but I retain my copyright and ownership of my work. The same is true for the Member Profiles I wrote over the past 3 1/2 years. Just because I posted them on selected Intenet sites doesn't negate my ownership or copyright of them. The same is true of the table us authors make.And as such, we should, but don't, have control over where they are hosted. But we can't really contol that any more than we can control all the SOBs selling CDs of outdated tables on eBay. So at least give us the right to bitch and complain about the sites that don't have enough class to ask permission. Every table hosted here I have personally received permission to host, so it's not an impossible task.

John

Times have changed, You haven't...All of your stuff is online without MY Site:
You hold copyrights to Genco's stuff? when did that happen?
I didn't ask for permission to host tables on this site, I won't permit exclusive releases here, why you ponder? (You Know! check your email from 3 years ago)
... because it's Wrong, this was a hobby and newbies are discovering bs author stuff instead of pinball. Sad but true..
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
John, keep in mind that you said the magic word: "sell." You "SELL" an article, it's not for free.

When you admittedly offer stuff on here for free, that's a different case, entirely. (Why do you think I was so argumentative about the nonsense with the new commercial pin game that's using our stuff? There's a MASSIVE possibility for misuse, there.)

As for the tables, yes, you do own the copyrights on them...that was never my argument. I just can't understand why you don't want to allow them out there.

You're lucky enough to have your own site, and be a good part of IR and MAME. But let's take another example:

I really shouldn't put words in anyone's mouths (and I only pick him because he's the first that came to mind; I can think of others), but wrench has been woefully without a harbor for his well over 100 games now...he's said as much on vpf.

I hardly think that he'd complain about someone finally hosting them, and I honestly think the rest of us are all the RICHER for the fact that they're out there again! Wrench, even with all his eccentricities, is one of the most ORIGINAL creators we have!

I appreciate your efforts to keep your site "clean," and make sure you have permission for everyone's tables...but I honestly hardly think that's absolutely necessary.

People have put their FREE stuff out there...for FREE. Copyrights or not, they're FREE. As long as they stay that way, there's not much you can do about someone passing them along.

And honestly? I don't think there should be. I think it's good that the stuff is still available. (I know I'm making enemies here!)

After all, as I asked earlier: what do you guys really WANT from this?

(Bob answered "respect;" personally, I'd consider it a wonderful form of respect if someone took something I'd created and, free of charge, felt it valuable enough to offer to the world on his website...admittedly as long as I didn't feel I was entitled anything else [money] for it, in the process.)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
JonPurpleHaze said:
tiltjlp said:
Look at it this way. I've written professionally for years, and when I sell an article, or did in the past, the entire publication it appeared or appears in is copyrighted, but I retain my copyright and ownership of my work. The same is true for the Member Profiles I wrote over the past 3 1/2 years. Just because I posted them on selected Intenet sites doesn't negate my ownership or copyright of them. The same is true of the table us authors make.And as such, we should, but don't, have control over where they are hosted. But we can't really contol that any more than we can control all the SOBs selling CDs of outdated tables on eBay. So at least give us the right to bitch and complain about the sites that don't have enough class to ask permission. Every table hosted here I have personally received permission to host, so it's not an impossible task.

John

Times have changed, You haven't...
You hold copyrights to Genco's stuff? when did that happen?
I didn't ask for permission to host tables on this site, I won't permit exclusive releases here why? because it's Wrong, this was a hobby and newbies are discovering Assholes instead of pinball.

No I don't have copyrights to the Genco stuff, but I do have copyright to the script. And yeah, times have changed, and i have to accept that, but I don't have to like it. And if not wanting my stuff sold on eBay or hosted on sites I don't even know about makes me an asshole than so be it. Nothing I can do about it but I don't have to sing their praises either.

And I never said you asked for permission to host tables here, I said I did, which I did. Again, it's no big deal, just something I felt I needed to do. None of this keeps me from still making tables, but I should be able to voice my opinion. And just because times change doesn't mean it changes for the better.

John
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
Hmmm...maybe we should've done it like this, in the first place:

"Anything you create on VP is not only NOT able to be used to create a profit for you, but, as something you've created completely free and without strings attached, capable of being passed around from site to site on the web, to everyone's enjoyment and satisfaction, as long as they don't modify it right out from under you."

Guys, you know me, I've nothing but respect, friendship and admiration for all of you (despite the occasional argument!)...

...but I think this is completely out of line. Not only do I think that you can't do anything about it...but I don't think you SHOULD. I think it's good that the games are all out there again.

As I said before (mayhap without enough emphasis?), WHAT DID YOU GUYS REALLY WANT OR EXPECT FROM THIS???
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
tudnut said:
I appreciate your efforts to keep your site "clean," and make sure you have permission for everyone's tables...but I honestly hardly think that's absolutely necessary.

Pinball Nirvana is my site (Not tiltjlp's) and I'm ready to delete tables from all idiotic authors that don't know and appreciate why they make tables.


tiltjlp said:
And if not wanting my stuff sold on eBay or hosted on sites I don't even know about makes me an asshole than so be it. Nothing I can do about it but I don't have to sing their praises either.

How about ignorant? Get a newsreader and realize you have zero control like Kinsey and bob.
 

tudnut

Pinball Wizard
I think we're both on the same page, Jon...but take it easy, no need to get nasty.

Bottom line: Neptune is NOT selling your stuff. He's offering it free, just like everyone did in the first place. (I'm moving today, won't be hooked up again until Thursday, at the least...miss you guys till then!)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
JonPurpleHaze said:
tudnut said:
I appreciate your efforts to keep your site "clean," and make sure you have permission for everyone's tables...but I honestly hardly think that's absolutely necessary.

Pinball Nirvana is my site (Not tiltjlp's) and I'm ready to delete tables from all idiotic authors that don't know and appreciate why they make tables.


tiltjlp said:
And if not wanting my stuff sold on eBay or hosted on sites I don't even know about makes me an asshole than so be it. Nothing I can do about it but I don't have to sing their praises either.

How about ignorant? Get a newsreader and realize you have zero control like Kinsey and bob.

I never implied this wasn't your site Jon, all I said, or thought I said was that before I added any tables to the site I asked the author's permission. And although I'm not ignorant, I don't need a newsreader to know I don't have any control over what happens to my tables once I upload them. I still don't have to like that fact although I'm aware of it. See you when you get hooked up again Tudnut.

John
 
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