New version of medieval madness??

[mjrtoo]

I've read other posts on other sites that discuss there is one floating around out there.

It's my favorite table, if anyone is willing to share...I would be willing to receive!

 

[yogiholzer]

It hopefully will be released when it's ready. There is still nothing to share.

 

[zerhino]

Pinball Ken has one in progress, but the one at AJ's isnt too bad.

 

[marv75]

It's a good table...don't know about the release or where...beta testing has begun, but everything is up to the powers to be, I guess?:)

 

[tiltjlp]

I read that Macho finally answered PK's e-mail, so it's all up to Macho now.

John

 

[GHoSTFaCe]

I read that Macho finally answered PK's e-mail, so it's all up to Macho now.

Ugh, I thought you agreed with me that Macho should have no say in it because his mod was unauthorized to begin with? Since Macho appears now to have given approval for PKs version I suppose it's moot other than as a talking point, but still...

 

[mjrtoo]

I have the latest, and while it's a great table, I'm always one for the best, and I hear Macho's rendition is the very best.

 

[tiltjlp]

I read that Macho finally answered PK's e-mail, so it's all up to Macho now.

Ugh, I thought you agreed with me that Macho should have no say in it because his mod was unauthorized to begin with? Since Macho appears now to have given approval for PKs version I suppose it's moot other than as a talking point, but still...

I did and do agree with you, but it seems Macho's was released, and since some folks think he should have a say, I'm willing to be flexible. Anything that will keep Cobracure quiet I'm in favor of. Whatever happens, I won't download PK's table, so I don't really care, except that we'd had trouble before with unauthorized mods and I don't want to see that happen again.

John

 

[bob]

A mod of an unauthorized mod should be a no no.

Joxer still doesn't give anyone permission to mod his table.

The table will be appearing in the Ultracade package, I wonder which version they are using

 

[PacDude]

WTF? Just because Macho's mod was unauthorized, suddenly PK doesn't need Macho's approval for THAT reason? Macho still did the work no matter how you look at it; he should get his say. Besides, if Macho's is unauthorized, then PK's is too because one comes from the other.

 

[subzero]

theres a way to solve this - PD you do one :D

 

[GHoSTFaCe]

WTF? Just because Macho's mod was unauthorized, suddenly PK doesn't need Macho's approval for THAT reason? Macho still did the work no matter how you look at it; he should get his say.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If Macho's mod is unauthorized, then he shouldn't be due any of the author protections of the community since he himself never honored those protections.

Besides, if Macho's is unauthorized, then PK's is too because one comes from the other.

That would only be true if he doesn't get permission from this original author (Joxer), and I believe he has.

 

[PacDude]

Sorry, but that's a crock, IMO. I won't support that line of thinking. Work is work. If PK's mod is authorized, then so is Macho's because that's PK's starting point.

 

[yogiholzer]

Joxer said he is ok with PK doing his own MM even if using macho's work and with that even using his work. Joxer wants to provide PK pics material additional. Why is there any problem left now? And macho is ok with that too, so it doesn't matter if he has to be ok or not. I don't understand what's wrong now. Is there any urgent reason left to prevent a PK MM? I just want to understand!

Ah, and in case anyone wants to blame me for attempting to bypass credit with pretense of from scratch, this is was my answer at VPF (without answer):

"I take that meant to me and now that really bothers me! You should better know what I'm kind of character.

That's all because you want to read and understand that!

I admit belated that people could get the idea from that. It was never my intention.

And don't forget that I'm not that english language acrobat as you and others here.

No :albino: now, but the right smily is missing here!"

I probably meant this: :bat:

 

[mjrtoo]

theres a way to solve this - PD you do one :D

That would be awesome a PD MM

 

[GHoSTFaCe]

Sorry, but that's a crock, IMO. I won't support that line of thinking. Work is work. If PK's mod is authorized, then so is Macho's because that's PK's starting point.

Just because you don't agree doesn't make it "a crock". Macho by releasing an unauthorized mod showed no respect for any of the community's rules and therefore none of those same courtesies should be extended to him. Makes perfect sense.

Joxer should (and does) still have the right to veto any mod of his work, including Macho's and by extension PK's because they're both derivatives of his table.

By your logic, all mods should be allowed because "work is work"? C'mon, you don't believe that, do you? If you do you owe Rob046 one hell of an apology.

 

[GHoSTFaCe]

Ok, that last comparison is probably a bit over the top, but I still have a hard time understanding how you could have railroaded Rob so much for his modding and now you seem to be defending Macho for the same thing. I'm not quite following the logic.

 

[PacDude]

But we're not talking about Macho here. We're talking about PK releasing an unauthorized mod. You seem to think it's OK for PK to use someone else's work (i.e. Macho's) without asking first and your only defense of it is that Macho didn't have permission in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right in my Universe. You are advocating the same thing you're defending. That is NOT logical. If you're telling me Macho's table is INVALID, then PK should not use it for that reason. That's logical. Stealing it because it shouldn't have been made in the first place is no excuse for theft.

Besides, if you look back to the whole issue, Macho "thought" he had permission at the time too, if I recall correctly. Like now, Joxer said something to him like, send it to me to try out and I'll approve it if it's ok. Well, he came back with, I can't get it to run on my machine (funny how it ran on everyone else's) and so that left Macho in the same place PK was a few days ago, holding onto an unapproved, unauthorized, illegal mod that's more or less already finished and no way to release it because someone said NO after the fact for what sounds like dubious reasons.

So what's the lesson here?

1> ALWAYS get PERMISSION FIRST *before* you start your mod unless you're perfectly happy with it only existing on your hard drive or releasing by your own means and potentially pissing people off. "But it's a COOL game" is NOT a good reason or excuse to ignore this crucial step.

2> You're better off actually starting from scratch, especially when you say you're going to than inviting all kinds of problems by copying and pasting someone else's unauthorized work into your "scratch" table.

3> Don't bullshit Jedi Pac. He can sense bullshit a thousand miles away.

 

[GHoSTFaCe]

Well, perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this, which is fine. This would be an awfully dull place if we all agreed on everything. Like I said since PK seems to have Macho's approval now anyway it's probably a moot discussion, but now at least I understand (but will continue to disagree with) your POV.

As for your summary points:

1> In theory I agree, though I could certainly understand someone wanting to try modding it first to see if they could get a desirable result before bothering to ask for release approval. Approval should definitely be obtained before any type of WIP thread or anything of that nature though, for sure. Like you, I'll never agree with the "I can make so-and-so's version so much better, so I have the unequivocable right to update it" mentality.

2> If you have the talent and knowledge to do that, I'd agree. If I recall you started modding tables first before making your own from scratch, I assume to get a better understand of how the whole VP/VPM process worked. Since PK seems to have the talent and knowledge to build his own (though I really can't speak for him for sure), he certainly should start his own table from scratch. He'd probably get a more desirable result and more satisfaction from it in the end. If I were him I certainly would.

3> Hmm. Ever wonder why sometimes people think you're an egotistical ass? No one was attempting to bullshit anyone, I was just trying to have a reasonable conversation about this and understand different people's view points. Perhaps that's just not possible.

 

[bob]

That would only be true if he doesn't get permission from this original author (Joxer), and I believe he has.

I asked Joxer to give a simple answer 2 times... Either, Yes PK has permission to mod my table or No he doesn't. He refused to answer that simple question with a simple answer. I deduce that he has NOT given permission, but if you don't want to answer such a simple question, then my personal feelings are in this particular situation I will support PK if he releases the table. How fucking hard is it to publicly say, "Yes" or "No" when asked. Joxer was even on the VPF staff when all of the Modding shit hit the fan, so I found it unfuckingbelievable that he wouldn't answer the question.

The biggest problem with this community is people that refuse to communicate. Don't even get me started on AJ or Randy.

 

[StevOz]

I still like the TAF mod by bob best.

 

[rpbizzle47]

The biggest problem with this community is people that refuse to communicate. Don't even get me started on AJ or Randy.

Ok, I won't! :)

 

[tiltjlp]

What gripes me the most about this whole mess is 1, PK did say he was going to start a NEW table, and then did a copy and paste from supossedly both Joxer's and Macho's tables, and 2, he possibly got Cobracure to attempt to beat the drum for support for his version. And so here I am, someone who is almost completely against mods, having to help decide if PK's table is permissible or not. I won't be downloading PK's table, so it seems a bit ironic.

Now if I believed in Guilt By Association, PK would be found guilty because he knows Cobracure, who IMNSHO, is at best a low-life bottom feeding troll. If I used the tactics of CC, I'd vote no just to spite PK. But I still believe it's all about the community rules, so if PK cand prove that Macho says yes, and since I feel Joxer has said yes, I'll vote to allow it. Now, if Cobracure should ever release a table, not that the bum will, I'm voting not to host it here, just as a matter of principle.

John

 

[Pinball_Ken]

What a load of tosh! tiltjlp.

Happily I've permission from joxer and macho for this table, which I'm in the process of rebuilding. The layout is about complete, for which I thank my beta-testers in providing some useful feedback. The graphics will be overhauled next. I've a program that allows me to import and export graphics freely into VP6.1 and 7, so initially I used what was on hand in macho's table. Soon I'll be importing some hi-res images from additional material provided by wtiger, joxer and elsewhere. The script includes large chunks from macho's, but with my own quite extensive refinements. There were a number of errors in macho's script anyway, and it wasn't optimized for play in VP/VPinMAME.

If you like, it's on the lines that I altered STTNG, which I did first, then submitted to the table authors (Destruk and BlueTex). Having been authorised to continue with improvements, after its release, I continue to do so.

PK :)

 

[PacDude]

As for your summary points:

1> In theory I agree, though I could certainly understand someone wanting to try modding it first to see if they could get a desirable result before bothering to ask for release approval. Approval should definitely be obtained before any type of WIP thread or anything of that nature though, for sure. Like you, I'll never agree with the "I can make so-and-so's version so much better, so I have the unequivocable right to update it" mentality.

I'm thinking more and more people should just build their own tables or agree to work in teams. This updating tables long after they're done by an author that is not going to go any further just leads to nothing but problems. Why? Because we have these odd rules at VPF that say it's OK to mod if you can't get a hold of someone after 30 days. WTF? It should NEVER be ok to mod anyone's work without their permission, IMO. I mean who decided 30 days was ok to steal someone's work? So you wait for them to go on vacation and then just do whatever the fuck you feel like doing? Dirty pool, old man. In such situations, people should always have to start over. If you can't do that, you should leave it to those that can. Suffice to say, this kind of situation would not be tolerated in most artistic or gaming communities.

2> If you have the talent and knowledge to do that, I'd agree. If I recall you started modding tables first before making your own from scratch, I assume to get a better understand of how the whole VP/VPM process worked. Since PK seems to have the talent and knowledge to build his own (though I really can't speak for him for sure), he certainly should start his own table from scratch. He'd probably get a more desirable result and more satisfaction from it in the end. If I were him I certainly would.

I don't think PK believes he is capable of doing the table from scratch or he would have done so. "Rebuilding" sounds like copy/paste to me.

This Ultracade version of VP can export images (including BMPs which couldn't be directly ripped before) and that could lead to more locked tables in the future, unfortunately since it's too easy to just use someone's parts' images, etc. now without asking first.

3> Hmm. Ever wonder why sometimes people think you're an egotistical ass? No one was attempting to bullshit anyone, I was just trying to have a reasonable conversation about this and understand different people's view points. Perhaps that's just not possible.

Perhaps you should learn what a smiley is. Maybe then you'd see #3 was a joke. It wasn't even referring to you (why would it? I said what can we learn in general). It really refers to trying to pretend something is from scratch when it's simply NOT. Copy/Paste is not a new table.