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Pinball sites that are gone, but not forgotten

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
The seventh year of shivaSite got me thinking of pinball sites that I've known that are no longer active, and some that aren't even around.

The Silverball News http://www.pinball.org/silver/archive.htm was an online magazine that was published from 1997 through July of 1999. There were, and are, 13 issues. I say are, because if you follow the link above, you can still read the issues. It was a nice effort, but like many small sites, it was mainly a solo effort, and in time the fellow simply ran out of steam. A visit will be well worth your time, and don't miss the page on pinball Easter Eggs.

Another site that is no longer, and which doesn't even exist now, was Digital Playfield, a VP site ran by a nice fellow named Marc. I haven't heard from Marc in several years, and hope he's doing well. He didn't host many tables, and his Gallery wasn't that impressive, but he did a great job covering the news of commercial pin sims.

Also gone is another VP site that I can't recall the name of, which was the first to host VP Originals after IRPinball had to drop them from their site. If I recall, the site was free, and as such, always had a problem with exceeding bandwidth limits.

Since I've only been around since the fall of 2001, I probably have missed a few, like Hippy Network, which was going out the door just as I was entering. I invite any and all of you to salute those wonderful pioneer sites that led they way. Having a written record of them might prove nostalgic, but also might stand as a tribute to what used to be.

John
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
You know, PacDude used to have his own site once, which he kept all of his tables on and it was layed out really nice. I can't remember who gave him the space, but he had a complete freedom to do what he wanted. It was pretty cool! I think one of the forums should make PD a moderator and give him his own special place for displaying and hosting his tables. Like him or not, he IS an entertaining fellow.
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
/me says nothing at bobs suggestion

Tiltjlp, you should add VPFF to that list before the shadow notices it missing
I never signed up there, ( or signed up for your sealed section either for that matter) but it is a site that many others apreciated
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
TMFP, please don't tell me you're not a PacDude fan? He makes great tables and he would help anyone. It just takes a sense of humor to realise that he means well. He is extremely intelligent and to be honest with you, most of the people who don't get along with PD are JUST LIKE HIM! That's what makes the whole thing so damn funny! So quit listening to those whineyass crybabies!

pssst... Sometimes I just post stuff to rile people up :D

BTW, I think I was the number 2 poster at VPFF :) and PD was number 1 when they closed. They closed because no one went there anymore.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
So I'm noone am I now, I was there until the end, even had to register again when she crashed hard toward the end, don't even think about using noone as a surname reference or I'll have to.....mmmm perhaps I should mess with your account again....Ah hahahahahaha! :p

Actually bob.....PD did not exsist at the end, his account got deleted, along with mine and a few others. ;)

Either way I know VPFF did advance the VP scene, more so then any VP site at the time.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Bob, both JPH and I have asked the Dude to be the moderator of the VPM sections here, but never got a response from him. And I do agree, he's OK, although it took me quite a while to figure that out. And I didn't forget VPFF, I didn't mention it so someone who was around at the end could extoll it's virtures, or lack there of.

John
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
Bob, no no no
I have nothing against PacDude, his philosophies of life are quite good (for an American) :-)
it is just
just
he can be quite verbose sometimes
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
A very fine subject, there are so many folks that disappear, a small fraction had websites...

Also gone is another VP site that I can't recall the name of, which was the first to host VP Originals after IRPinball had to drop them from their site. If I recall, the site was free, and as such, always had a problem with exceeding bandwidth limits

This was Marcus of Parkers Pinball Pages, I fear his disappearance had nothing to do with bandwidth. He sent me most of the computer components I'm using right now and he just vanished one dreary day...

Hippie.net is where a bunch of stuff started, shivaSite and IRPinball. The VP community has never recovered from losing the "hippie" in the url! 8)

Bob, both JPH and I have asked the Dude to be the moderator of the VPM sections here, but never got a response from him

Just need to correct this, PacDude respectfully declined.

It's truly sad to see pinball sites disappear, they needed the url that included "hippie" somewhere!
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
On the other hand, some sites that still are around may have outlived their purpose, and should be put out of their misery. One example is Arcade@Home. It had been a while, under a different username, that I had visited or posted there. So recently I registed as tiltjlp. I noticed that except for a few posts which were weeks old, nothing much had been added or discussed in the last six months or more.

I read some of the threads dealing with Visual Pinball, since I'm not really into VPM. And so I revived a few threads form last fall, and since the last posts in both the threads had to do with where to get tables, I added information about PN. And I promptly was put into my place. How dare I come onto the scene and dredge up old threads no one cared about any longer. And who was I to promote my own site, now that was low. I was told if I wanted to discuss something about pinball emulation, I should start a new topic.

Now, up to then maybe a half dozen members had insulted me, and a few were either vulgar or very hostile. Only one member took the two ring leaders to task, noting that "no wonder newbies don't stick around long". But the worst part of all is that they also have a download page. Now that download page has a nice but limited selection of tables, all last updated in October of 2001.

And now for the punch line, because Arcade@Home really has quickly turned into a joke. I posted a new topic, mentioning that while I was a new member, I wasn't a rookie to pinball forums. I stated I had provided a link to PN more for information than for promotiion. Then I mentioned which eras of VP tables I prefer, and asked what other folks liked.

Proving that some people simply can't be pleased, I got roasted, toasted, ripped, bashed, cursed, and insulted more in fifteen minutes than I have in the entire VP community in three years. I revived two old threads and started one new topic, which I had been told was the right way to do things at Arcade@Home . . . a total of six posts, so I couldn't win no matter what I did.

Seems there are 3 or 4 Guardians Of The Dead Threads over at Arcade@Home who troll there night and day, making sure that a renewed interest in pinball in general and VP in particular doesn't rear its dangerous head. Well, I'll keep my eyes on them to see who else they pounce upon, just out of curiousity.

So, at least the 4 main VP forum sites are active, thriving, and for the most part willing to welcome new members and new opinions. Arcade@Home seems to feel a need to have a border patrol manned with sissy trolls and wannabes. I wish I had some idea what they thought they had worth protecting. Like I said, maybe not all sites are a plus. Maybe a few need to simply fade into dark.

John
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Now I have dug up old threads at VPF, and no one, not even the High Lord against Pissing and Moaning has complained. I just got the feel that they are keeping a death watch and don't welcome new members no matter what.

Eiher way, I love your latest web site. And every time you post one of those phoney links I click on it just hoping it's real. I sure wish some of your sense of homor would rub off on a certain fellow Aussie of yours.

John
 
Last edited:
G

Guest

Guest
tiltjlp said:
Now I have dug up old threads at VPF, and no one, not even the High Lord against Pissing and Moaning has complained. I just got the feel that they are keeping a death watch and don't welcome new members no matter what.

Eiher way, I love your latest web site. And every time you post one of those phoney links I click on it just hoping it's real. I sure which some of your sense of homor would rub off on a certain fellow Aussie of yours.

John

edited with appologies.
No slots available for uploads at VPF.
well whoop de do.
I've got the tables from Shivasite without any hassle at all.
So, the problem is???
AJ will fix it when he has time and this means maybe appointing someone else to help with that.
If he decides to leave himself as sole upload person well TOUGH for you and your fellow P&M'ers.
Like I said it's not like you don't have an alternative and it's not like anyone of your fellow P&M'ers would say thank-you even if AJ gives you what you want.
Remember the "posting privledges" thread??
Not one thank-you from any of the jerks who cried a river of tears to get what they wanted once they got it.
Sense of humour eh?
I've got a great sense of humor just ask Black, Lio, Hans a plast, Duglis, Bendigo, Danz or even JPH.
As long as I stay away from petty a-holes I'm just fine thanks.

You want to talk pinball with me fine and dandy I will be courteous and helpfull and even humerous if required.
However if you shovel a load of bullshit on my shoes and expect me to believe that it's high quality boot polish then you and I are in for a rough ride.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leon, my reference to a sense of humor was to TMFP and his non exisitant web site addresses. So would do well to take lessons from TMFP. But since you have chosen to dump on me, I'll return the favor. Below is proof that when the Posting Privledges Policy was changed at VPF that I certainly did express thanks. I copied it would a current post of lio's at VPF also telling you that you were wrong.

tiltjlp
She was a sweet cat.
Supporting Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Cincinnati Ohio!!
Posts: 2401

Report this post
IP: Logged


I am simply stunned. I never in my wildest dreams expected this to ever occurr. Thanks to Loaf, Apoc, the entire staff, and AJ, if in fact he finally allowed this common sense, no brainer change to happen.

I only hope that this will encourage more involvement and the fostering of new authors. One suggestion for new posters, rather than asking endless questions right off the bat, on a search on key words of you question, and you're likely to find what you need. It can get a bit tiring for us old hands to forever answer the same questions.

And for my fellow experienced members, try to be patient with newbies questions, since even searches don't always provide the information needed, and so questions sometimes have to be asked. And insulting reply might cause someone, maybe a budding Pacdude or Scapion, to chuck it all and never return.

First impressions are often lasting impressions, so lets try to be as welcoming and cooperative as possible. I keep hearing that it's only a game, but to most of us, pinball is much more than just a game, so let's help new members catch the obsession we all enjoy.

John

__________________
Pinball Nirvana
Pinball Nirvana Forums

VPF: Love It & Improve It
Flipperless was and is the original pinball.

10-13-2004 06:02 PM

Next time you dump on me pal, make sure you can back up your facts. Now I'm sure you'll try to dismiss this somehow, but not agreeing with you doesn't not mean I'm guilty of high treason in VP Land. Grab a towel and wipe that egg off your face matey.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
sigh...

To be honest, if we keep talking about it, Reality becomes myth, or even bedtime story fables we tell our small children at night. What's the point of constantly saying the same thing to the same people when they are not there to listen?

As Leo kindly pointed out, there is a proper alternative now, and judging by things, people appear to be more than happy to take advantage of that alternative. Maybe that will force some changes, after all, this hasn't been the first time in the last few years this has been mentioned, but it's the first time so many voices are saying it at once.

After all, policies can be changed, new groups of people can be added to replace all those who have jumped off, and ideas can come from other people and websites, who take the time to implement and test those policies first, and to show that there are good ideas that make sense, and don't cause the problems everyone thought would happen. Sometimes all it is a bit of effort from other people to show the way to those who are blinded, but there's nothing that can be done if we try and speak to people who have no ears on the side of their head.
 
G

Guest

Guest
tiltjlp said:
Leon, my reference to a sense of humor was to TMFP and his non exisitant web site addresses. So would do well to take lessons from TMFP. But since you have chosen to dump on me, I'll return the favor. Below is proof that when the Posting Privledges Policy was changed at VPF that I certainly did express thanks. I copied it would a current post of lio's at VPF also telling you that you were wrong.

tiltjlp
She was a sweet cat.
Supporting Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Cincinnati Ohio!!
Posts: 2401

Report this post
IP: Logged


I am simply stunned. I never in my wildest dreams expected this to ever occurr. Thanks to Loaf, Apoc, the entire staff, and AJ, if in fact he finally allowed this common sense, no brainer change to happen.

I only hope that this will encourage more involvement and the fostering of new authors. One suggestion for new posters, rather than asking endless questions right off the bat, on a search on key words of you question, and you're likely to find what you need. It can get a bit tiring for us old hands to forever answer the same questions.

And for my fellow experienced members, try to be patient with newbies questions, since even searches don't always provide the information needed, and so questions sometimes have to be asked. And insulting reply might cause someone, maybe a budding Pacdude or Scapion, to chuck it all and never return.

First impressions are often lasting impressions, so lets try to be as welcoming and cooperative as possible. I keep hearing that it's only a game, but to most of us, pinball is much more than just a game, so let's help new members catch the obsession we all enjoy.

John

__________________
Pinball Nirvana
Pinball Nirvana Forums

VPF: Love It & Improve It
Flipperless was and is the original pinball.

10-13-2004 06:02 PM

Next time you dump on me pal, make sure you can back up your facts. Now I'm sure you'll try to dismiss this somehow, but not agreeing with you doesn't not mean I'm guilty of high treason in VP Land. Grab a towel and wipe that egg off your face matey.

John

I would be happy to publicy appologise to you IF you can send me a link to the thread you posted the above in.
You CERTAINLY did NOT post that in the thread with all the bitching in.

shiva said:
After all, policies can be changed, new groups of people can be added to replace all those who have jumped off, and ideas can come from other people and websites, who take the time to implement and test those policies first, and to show that there are good ideas that make sense, and don't cause the problems everyone thought would happen. Sometimes all it is a bit of effort from other people to show the way to those who are blinded, but there's nothing that can be done if we try and speak to people who have no ears on the side of their head.

My point exactly. If you go into a restaurant and the service or the food is lousy do you:

A) Go back there day after day complaining loud and long to the managment to change things.

B) Speak with your wallet and find another place to eat.

My choice is 'B'. This is assuming that the managment in question is not listening.
Pissin' and moanin' about it in 'A' only annoys those patrons who may not share your views.
This is especially true if you have been told that the 'owner' i.e. the person with the power to change things is not available.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo Wanker said:
tiltjlp said:
Leon, my reference to a sense of humor was to TMFP and his non exisitant web site addresses. So would do well to take lessons from TMFP. But since you have chosen to dump on me, I'll return the favor. Below is proof that when the Posting Privledges Policy was changed at VPF that I certainly did express thanks. I copied it would a current post of lio's at VPF also telling you that you were wrong.

tiltjlp
She was a sweet cat.
Supporting Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Cincinnati Ohio!!
Posts: 2401

Report this post
IP: Logged


I am simply stunned. I never in my wildest dreams expected this to ever occurr. Thanks to Loaf, Apoc, the entire staff, and AJ, if in fact he finally allowed this common sense, no brainer change to happen.

I only hope that this will encourage more involvement and the fostering of new authors. One suggestion for new posters, rather than asking endless questions right off the bat, on a search on key words of you question, and you're likely to find what you need. It can get a bit tiring for us old hands to forever answer the same questions.

And for my fellow experienced members, try to be patient with newbies questions, since even searches don't always provide the information needed, and so questions sometimes have to be asked. And insulting reply might cause someone, maybe a budding Pacdude or Scapion, to chuck it all and never return.

First impressions are often lasting impressions, so lets try to be as welcoming and cooperative as possible. I keep hearing that it's only a game, but to most of us, pinball is much more than just a game, so let's help new members catch the obsession we all enjoy.

John

__________________
Pinball Nirvana
Pinball Nirvana Forums

VPF: Love It & Improve It
Flipperless was and is the original pinball.

10-13-2004 06:02 PM

Next time you dump on me pal, make sure you can back up your facts. Now I'm sure you'll try to dismiss this somehow, but not agreeing with you doesn't not mean I'm guilty of high treason in VP Land. Grab a towel and wipe that egg off your face matey.

John

I would be happy to publicy appologise to you IF you can send me a link to the thread you posted the above in.
You CERTAINLY did NOT post that in the thread with all the bitching in.

Well Leon, since you found it over at VPF, you won't need a link. And from the way you play "guardian" in nearly every thread, there must be "bitching" in all of them. The interesting thing about us over them is that I nor any or our staff will delete or doctor any posts, so you can alway come here to find out you actually said.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
That's right, and more and more people are chooseing option B, or actually option S, and it seems there are quite a few people that never talked up either deciding to visit, and on top of it, I guess the vast majority of those that were annoyed in the first place decided to go see for themselves as well.

More things change, the more they stay the same? I guess that's the case then, but it's now a case where people also have to start wondering about things. Why are there problems with slots, why are there problems with other things, and why have they not been fixed. Easy enough for one person to answer, but he hasn't. In fact, these same questions have been asked before as well, same silence, and before that, and before that as well. And so on and so on. The staff may have some answers for people, but they are only repeating the same answers as the staff in place before them, and they were repeating the answers from the staff before them.. We are not talking a couple months here, these issues were there a couple years ago.

Blind loyalty is nice, I have been known to stick up for my friends and staff just because of loyalty, but then I'm around to do it. And I do stick to my guns as well now. After September, when this mess last cropped up before hand, were there not some promises made that certain things would be changed, all for the better? And did any one of those promises ever happen? I heard those promises quite clearly, in fact, I've heard other promises as well, but then I got tied of waiting around to see if they ever are gonna happen. Way I see it, I'm a man, not a puppet, and did what I should have done earlier, because I knew way before then that those promises would never happen.

I think the only question that people are asking is that after seeing what shivaSite, and other sites like this one, are able to do in a very short time, in terms of software, policies, and ease of use, then why is it after 4 years that VPF is still the same as before? Any changes made were to match policies I already had in place weeks earlier.

And to be honest Leo, why are you the one that is answering these questions? Why are you fighting battles that AJ should be fighting? Why is any of the staff, even after September and what didn't happen, still fighting battles? I have nothing againest the staff there, I am just as much like the next guy, I think the staff there is very nice, friendly, and tries to do a good job (even if you guys talk about things way too long and then not do anything about it until it's too late) but is all this really worth it? This is not a small single event, this has been going on for years. Why are you in this position? And why is your admin, the person who is responsible for the site, the person who took the responsibility for the entire community, allowing this to continue, allowing the people who work for him to take the brunt of the hostility, while remaining not only silent, but not even bothering to make a regular appearance. If this site was so important to him, that he would have to fork over a large amount of money to keep it going, then why does he never visit his own investment, if he loves it so much to dump that kind of money into it. Why Hasn't he taken the small amount of time it takes to make a few simple changes? He's had plenty of time, a couple years really, and yet some of the stuff asked for I could do in 2 minutes on my server, and if I decided not to make those changes, I would at least tell people myself, and not ignore the entire thing and let my staff take the brunt.

I'm a admin, I've been doing this for a long time, so I know what I am talking about. There's no reasonable excuse for this to have lasted as long as it has. I would certainly never let the people I work with ever get into the position like the one at VPF, in fact, I would kick the first staff member to do it very hard if that person decided to fight my battles for me when it's my responsibility, and not his. If there is a battle as the site admin I have to fight, I fight them, no one else, because that is part of my job, good or bad. My staff knows that. If they need to rely on me, they know they can.

I admire your courage to stand behind your boss, but there's a difference between loyality and stupidity. You've been left hanging in the wind, a living target dummy to serve as a shield for the person who should be taking the shots, and seems to be more than willing to let you continue that purpose. I would never tolerate that for myself, or my staff members, because they are not staff members, they are my family. I look after them, they look after me. Most of them are still with me after 6 years. That's what I don't understand here, why are you doing this?

The odd thing is I've seen to have made a rather spectaclar comeback for someone who is so washed up. Tripled my numbers, made a lot of people happy, and have built a new website that is running circles around the other forum. It's not a big secret, I made a promise, I made a recommitment to my staff and members, and I am keeping that word to the best of my ability. And thus the new strides and success can be summed up in just a few words. Commitment, Responsibility, and Family. Not just for my staff, not just for my members, but also, and especially for, the site admin and owner... Me

Can you tell me you get the same kind of commitment, the responsibility, and the knowledge that your admin will be there when you need him?
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
Ahhhhgggg, please people
Stop attacking each other
I know some of you have problems with AJ, but so what??????
Each of you has your own website to do with as you please, and you seem to be pleased at slagging off at AJ, or any one else that comes into your sights

I don't come to VP assiated websites to read about your frigging squabbles with each other

<Automatic deletion of extreme expititives>
 
G

Guest

Guest
shiva said:
And to be honest Leo, why are you the one that is answering these questions? Why are you fighting battles that AJ should be fighting? Why is any of the staff, even after September and what didn't happen, still fighting battles? I have nothing againest the staff there, I am just as much like the next guy, I think the staff there is very nice, friendly, and tries to do a good job (even if you guys talk about things way too long and then not do anything about it until it's too late) but is all this really worth it? This is not a small single event, this has been going on for years. Why are you in this position? And why is your admin, the person who is responsible for the site, the person who took the responsibility for the entire community, allowing this to continue, allowing the people who work for him to take the brunt of the hostility, while remaining not only silent, but not even bothering to make a regular appearance. If this site was so important to him, that he would have to fork over a large amount of money to keep it going, then why does he never visit his own investment, if he loves it so much to dump that kind of money into it. Why Hasn't he taken the small amount of time it takes to make a few simple changes? He's had plenty of time, a couple years really, and yet some of the stuff asked for I could do in 2 minutes on my server, and if I decided not to make those changes, I would at least tell people myself, and not ignore the entire thing and let my staff take the brunt.

I'm a admin, I've been doing this for a long time, so I know what I am talking about. There's no reasonable excuse for this to have lasted as long as it has. I would certainly never let the people I work with ever get into the position like the one at VPF, in fact, I would kick the first staff member to do it very hard if that person decided to fight my battles for me when it's my responsibility, and not his. If there is a battle as the site admin I have to fight, I fight them, no one else, because that is part of my job, good or bad. My staff knows that. If they need to rely on me, they know they can.

I admire your courage to stand behind your boss, but there's a difference between loyality and stupidity. You've been left hanging in the wind, a living target dummy to serve as a shield for the person who should be taking the shots, and seems to be more than willing to let you continue that purpose. I would never tolerate that for myself, or my staff members, because they are not staff members, they are my family. I look after them, they look after me. Most of them are still with me after 6 years. That's what I don't understand here, why are you doing this?

The odd thing is I've seen to have made a rather spectaclar comeback for someone who is so washed up. Tripled my numbers, made a lot of people happy, and have built a new website that is running circles around the other forum. It's not a big secret, I made a promise, I made a recommitment to my staff and members, and I am keeping that word to the best of my ability. And thus the new strides and success can be summed up in just a few words. Commitment, Responsibility, and Family. Not just for my staff, not just for my members, but also, and especially for, the site admin and owner... Me

Can you tell me you get the same kind of commitment, the responsibility, and the knowledge that your admin will be there when you need him?

Just to clear up a couple of missconceptions you have.
I am not on the staff. Therefore I have no "boss". I am but, a user.
I am not "fighting" any battles for AJ.
I am not trying to answer any of the questions.
I don't feel any "heat" as you put it because the problems are not my fault.

I am providing an alternative perspective to the situation that exists.
Nothing more.
I am happy with the way VPF is run.
I've got NO complaints. (well except for the whiners)
AJ alone will have to deal with the consequences of the way he chooses to run HIS site.

I call the people that complain "whiners" because an alternative exists.

Yet they don't take it????

They know that AJ is not "johnny on the spot" when it comes to requests (and I have NOTHING against him for this) and if they don't like it an alternative exists.

Yet they don't take it????

Why piss and moan about it when relief is elsewhere??
I have no problem with anyone finding "inner pinball peace" by going to your site Shiva.
I don't visit very often but, that is not because I think your site sux. Quite the contrary. I think you have been a wonderful gift to the VP scene and your site is excellent. However I have no problem where I am. I am quite comfortable at the VPF.
If that should ever change I will, without pissing and moaning or any pomp or ceremony move to somewhere where I DO feel comfortable.
Whether it be here or Shivasite.
Therefore I don't have "blind loyalty".

I agree that the staff there are taking the "brunt" but, they knew the job was dangerous when they took it and it was also one of the reasons why I turned down the offer to join staff.
I believe if they didn't want to do it they wouldn't.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I don't know Leo, you sure sound like it sometimes, but then, anyone that seems to enjoy going toe to toe with PacDude is okay in my book.
My problems are documented, but not well documented, for the same reasons as yours. But if you ever knew a few of them, you would piss and moan as well, in fact most people would piss and moan more than I have.
Neverless, I didn't start this entire thing over, I'm just adding my voice to what a few more people are now saying, though I have been saying the same thing for a lot longer time. AJ isn't "johnny on the spot" on anything, I would know, I had a site on his server that suffered a "few" problems because of it.
Your right, lets all sit back and watch the show, and not be surprised if events happen. If that event turns bad, then at the very least, a few of us can say that at least we spoke up to try and change things. If they turn good, then we can all enjoy the constant entertainment that VPF gives out time after time. To be honest, it's usually better than watching a TV show. :)
 
G

Guest

Guest
shiva said:
I don't know Leo, you sure sound like it sometimes, but then, anyone that seems to enjoy going toe to toe with PacDude is okay in my book.
My problems are documented, but not well documented, for the same reasons as yours. But if you ever knew a few of them, you would piss and moan as well, in fact most people would piss and moan more than I have.
Neverless, I didn't start this entire thing over, I'm just adding my voice to what a few more people are now saying, though I have been saying the same thing for a lot longer time. AJ isn't "johnny on the spot" on anything, I would know, I had a site on his server that suffered a "few" problems because of it.
Your right, lets all sit back and watch the show, and not be surprised if events happen. If that event turns bad, then at the very least, a few of us can say that at least we spoke up to try and change things. If they turn good, then we can all enjoy the constant entertainment that VPF gives out time after time. To be honest, it's usually better than watching a TV show. :)

On this we're agreed.
My hats off to you sir.
You have my admiration because you sought out an alternative.
Yes you did have a bit of a "piss and moan" but, it was short lived and now you are far better off within your "alternative".
The end justifies the means.
Good luck to you and you never know one day I may become a regular visitor to your site and forum.
Could you handle me?? :wink: :wink: :wink:
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I can handle anyone Leo, and even PacDude and Nicky are still members there.
The only thing we ask there is people don't confuse us with VPF, even though most of their policies were based on mine. I will enforce mine, but thankfully, never have had to.
Strange in that I get the same names to my site, yet they seem to be different people
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
[irony mode engaged] See, this little piss ant of a site does serve a purpose after all. If shiva and Leon can get along, much less agree on something, there is hope for the world. And Leon, I know you must feel that my only reason for being sometimes is to disagree with and debate you, but that isn't so. Based on your loyalty and continued defense of all things VPF, you must be a wonderful father, since you understand uncoditional love and devotion. But that loyalty doesn't have to be blind, sir. No one will think the less of you if you decided not to P&M about the P&Mers just once.

You can and do love your children, but you don't have to and surely don't approve of everything they do. That's the way may of us see VPF. We appreciate it not so much for waht it is, warts and all, but more for what it could be, with just a little effort. And while it's true that there is shivaSite as an alternate DL site, since I don't do VPM, that's not the issue with me. Just as you do what you feel you must in pointing out the plus side of VPF, those of us who feel there is a need for improvement feel we must point that out too.

It's almost as if you see our requests for change for the better as an attact on AJ, and somehow, ever on you and others who don't voice a need for improvement. The simply fact that more and more people are asking for improvements should make you wonder if maybe some improvement isn't in order. And though you say you have no complaints with VPF, I wonder that if you ever did see a need for improvement, would you still remain silent?

If the Suggestion Box forum hadn't been removed at VPF, that is where I would discuss changes I felt were needed. But since it was removed, I and others like me have to post them elsewhere, and so it probably does seem as it we are bitching or P&Ming. Now over here we do have a Suggestion forum, and we do consider posts there seriously. So if you ever feel like suggesting I go soak my head, by all means use that forum, and if your reasons are valid, well, just maybe. In summing up . . . lighten up Leon.[irony mode disengaged]

John
 
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