Williams Solved Star Pool (Williams, 1974) stays on player one.

Sonora70

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Head scratcher for me........
I'm trying to bring a Williams Star Pool back to life. I have the machine lighting up and resetting. One issue I'm having and I'm thinking it may possibly be related to another issue is the ball count unit is not being energized. I have taken the ball count unit apart and cleaned. The ball index relay is being activated and held when a target is hit, however when the game resets after a ball drain it stays on player one. The schematic on this part really confuses me.....one switch I haven't cleaned is the switch on the score motor that pulses the ball count unit. The other problem that is occurring is on "some" resets the machine resets multiple times before the ball is sent back into the shooter lane. I suspect this may be an outhole relay issue as I noticed it began doing it worse after I cleaned the switches on this relay.....(if I'm off base on this let me know) Thanks for your help!!!!
 
Solution
well done so far. something didnt sound right with the ball index relay allowed to open so soon. i checked the schematic on a williams aztec ball index relay hold circuit, and found out that there is an additional score motor switch that opens the ball index relay hold circuit. the star pool wiring part of the schematic doesnt show it, but looking at the score motor cam switches section i found it. its score motor switch 3D. its the NC top switch with the G-B wire. clean and check this switch. this is the actual switch that opens the ball index relay hold not the switch on the outhole relay.
Reading the on line schemo is tough as it is chopped up and spread out. I don't think the ball count unit runs the score motor cause one pulse to the ball count reset solenoid is all it takes to make it snap back to zero. So something else is causing the reset to continue. Glad that is not all the time. Did you check the ball count up solenoid and it's coil? Then check to see if pulses are getting to it. Your reset sequence is detailed page 2 in this manual>http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2352/Williams_1974_Star_Pool_Maunal_Supplement_Schematic_Diagrams.pdf
 
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the NC switch on the extra ball relay and the NO switch on the ball index relay need to be checked. the wiper disc or fingers on the player unit and the coin unit need to be checked also. does the ball index relay pull in and stay pulled in when points are scored? reset issues are usually the score reel stack switches, check if all those stack switches are open when the score reels are at zero. watch the reset relay on reset of when it releases. on a 2 player game does it advance to the second player or just stay on first player?
 
Thanks for all the info.......

I have cleaned the wiper disc on the player unit and the coin unit with alcohol and 600 grit sandpaper, also put a little teflon on them. The ball index relay pulls in and stays when points are scored. On a 2 player game it does not advance to the second player....just stays on player 1.

I have checked and cleaned the switches on the ball index relay several times. I have not checked the switch on the extra ball relay. That will be my go to this evening.
 
Okay,
inspected and cleaned the switches on the extra ball relay. Also went through the coin unit again by removing the fingers, cleaning, and checked to make sure the fingers were making contact.

Seems to be resetting better...still stays on ball one......:(
 
alligator clip jumper wires are an almost must have tool to find em problems. remove ball from playfield, reset machine for a single player game, lift and support playfield, install jumper from yellow common wire to B-R wire on the ball index relay switch lug, manuall move cam on score motor to start it runnung, ball count step up should pulse and the player unit might advance or reset. if the ball count unit does not pulse the problem should be in the score motor 1B switch, player unit disc, coin unit disc, or the ball count unit step up solenoid. if it does pulse the problem should be in the first half of the circuit that has the 3 relay switches in it, out hole, extra ball, and ball index. the jumper wire and half splitting of the circuit makes finding problems easier
 
alligator clip jumper wires are an almost must have tool to find em problems. remove ball from playfield, reset machine for a single player game, lift and support playfield, install jumper from yellow common wire to B-R wire on the ball index relay switch lug, manuall move cam on score motor to start it runnung, ball count step up should pulse and the player unit might advance or reset. if the ball count unit does not pulse the problem should be in the score motor 1B switch, player unit disc, coin unit disc, or the ball count unit step up solenoid. if it does pulse the problem should be in the first half of the circuit that has the 3 relay switches in it, out hole, extra ball, and ball index. the jumper wire and half splitting of the circuit makes finding problems easier


Will do.....late work night tonight. Will report back tomorrow. Thanks!
 
Update!

When I used the jumper wires as recommended the ball count did work. It went from ball 1 to ball 2 and then for fun I did it again and it went to ball 3. As a result I focused on the outhole, ball index, and extra ball relays. I can't find anything wrong.....re-cleaned all the switches, checked for proper adjustment, and also checked all wire connections to the switches. Still not working.....

Now that I/we know the general location of the problem, where do I need to head to next? :no:
 
now you have to work your way back with the jumper. move the jumper end off of the R-W wire and on to the R-G wire on the outhole relay switch . push in the ball index relay to lock it in , and manually start the score motor. does the ball count unit still fire?
 
Update

now you have to work your way back with the jumper. move the jumper end off of the R-W wire and on to the R-G wire on the outhole relay switch . push in the ball index relay to lock it in , and manually start the score motor. does the ball count unit still fire?



Just moved the jumper and yes....the ball count advanced to ball number 2.
 
yes the extra ball relay switch in this circuit is bypassed. the problem should now be narrowed down to the outhole relay switch. you can narrow the problem down even further by moving the jumper off of the R-G wire lug and on to the switch blades and repeat process. yellow common wire is needed on 4 of the 5 switches on the out hole relay , the yellow common is soldered to one of those switches and thin yellow jumpers are daisy chained off of that yellow common. with the machine un plugged you can do a resistance test from the yellow common to its jumpers. re-check solder connections and switch gap.
 
Pinballdaveh,
When moving the jumper to the switch blades do you check each blade individually by manually turning the cam? If I get to a blade that is not firing the ball count unit, is that the specific problem? At work now....looking forward to getting home this evening and getting into this.
 
yes your individual blade test info is correct. you have to close the out hole relay switch when you test the blade with the yellow wire going to it.
 
Update...really confused

I began trying the process with the individual switches. With no jumper wire when I close the switch that has the red and green wire attached and manually turn the cam it fires the ball count unit, again, this is with no jumper wire. However, when I activate the coil to fire the entire relay the ball count unit does not fire. Why would it fire with the one switch closed and a manual turn but not when the relay itself closes all the switches and the rest of the machine resets?

I tried, but not sure I did correctly attaching the jumper wire to the different leaf switches, however there was no result. Too, when I closed some of the switches certain parts of the machine reset as they do when the entire relay is activated.

This is probably very confusing. But again, back to my first situation. Why would closing the one switch with no jumper attached fire the ball count with a manual spin of the cam and not fire the ball count when the entire relay is activated?

So the entire process is as follows:
Turn on machine and it resets
Press ball index relay
with a tooth pick I closed the switch on the outhole that has the red/green wire connected to the lug
manually turn the cam on the motor and the ball count advances


However with the same process but instead of closing the switch with a toothpick I activate the entire relay the ball count does not fire....could it be opening the ball index relay too quickly????
 
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It just hit me, I'm thinking in the wrong direction. More to come. I think I understand the pattern now.
 
it does seem confusing but you gave great info. i think you are on the right track with the ball index relay opening too soon. the outhole relay does open the hold in circuit on the ball index relay. so timing of this circuit is critical. ok so heres what to do next. on the ball index relay switch B, the switch that has the B-R and the R-W wires. change the gap of the switch by adjusting the short blade to a minimal switch gap. so when the relay starts pulling in the switch closes earlier than normal, and the switch opens at the end of the relay arm travel. on the outhole relay switch C the switch with the Y and R-G wires change the the switch gap in the same way as the ball index relay switch. now the hard part, on the outhole relay switch D 3 blade make and break switch that has the G-B , Y , and O-G wires. in the outhole relay non pulled in position the NC part of the M&B switch will keep the ball index relay pulled in. the NO part of this switch will start the score motor running. so adjust the NO switch blade for minimal gap like the other 2 switches you did, so when the outhole relay starts pulling in the score motor will start running right away. the NC switch blade has to be adjusted so it opens when the relay arm pulls in completly. so what has to happen when the outhole relay starts to pull in , the score motor has to run earlier firing 1B cam switch, pulsing the ball count step up, before the outhole relay fully pulls in dropping out the ball index relay and not allowing the ball count step up to fire.
 
Update...

Okay, I have adjusted the switches with the minimal gap. Still not firing the ball counter. As a test I placed just a little pressure on the ball index relay to delay the opening. When I apply this pressure the ball count fires as it should. So......I would assume this is a timing issue. The gaps are nearly closed switches....can't get them any closer.

Any chance the switch on the cam could be adjusted to fire a little more quickly? Is that possible? So close here.....that ball index relay acts as though it just needs an extra millisecond to make this thing work.
 
well done so far. something didnt sound right with the ball index relay allowed to open so soon. i checked the schematic on a williams aztec ball index relay hold circuit, and found out that there is an additional score motor switch that opens the ball index relay hold circuit. the star pool wiring part of the schematic doesnt show it, but looking at the score motor cam switches section i found it. its score motor switch 3D. its the NC top switch with the G-B wire. clean and check this switch. this is the actual switch that opens the ball index relay hold not the switch on the outhole relay.
 
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Solution
Success!

Cleaned the switch as suggested and got the ball count to fire once as it should, then it would not repeat. Then I adjusted the switch a bit to ensure it was getting contact.......problem is solved! You were right, it was the switch on the cam allowing the ball index to open too quickly. The ball count fires each time the ball drains and the machine advances to next player (when set to multiple players) as it should.

Special thanks to Pinball Dave. Thanks for hanging with me through this process. I've learned much and have truly enjoyed the trouble shooting.
 
it seems like schematics are not correct 100% of the time. the 1% that some info is left out is the time you need it to solve a problem. the one thing i do like about williams em schematics is the score motor info. it gives full info on switch cams, types of switches used in the stacks, wire color info, and switch circuits info. without this info it would have made this problem even harder to figure out. your info on finding the ball index relay dropping out too soon was a great help. im sorry the problem took so long to figure out. enjoy your working machine. GOOD JOB WELL DONE.
 
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