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The solution to all the endless VP fighting

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Shockman said:
I'd be very happy to stick to pinball at your site John. nails and balls, OK.

There is one pinball that VPF has put back up that I asked for and indeed had taken down. It's just a few versions older and the credits for the creation of it is listed as 'Not TMFP' now.
Stuff from the past. Yeah right.
I asked for that to be taken down because I was banned for things I did not do and lied to about what would happen if I did them. Sounds fucked up don't it?

Typical shit from them, not as far as you guys can see, I know. I PMed both of the admins. and told them that they can put version 0.7 up, offered to supply it if they could not find it, and asked them to take down, again, version 0.9 and to credit the author, cristof instead of 'not tmfp'

If nic. had done that instead of replied in a thread as proof that he is around and not going to do it, you, the rest of the membership here would never know that this has gone down, so who do you really want to blame for this? I know. In fact every thing I ever asked for in the name of fairness was asked in PM, old staffs or new.

I don't even have to call them liers and cheats and thiefs this time, do I?

That can't, or at least should never happen here. Any staff action/decisions are posted openly, so there are no secrets or mystery. I'm not suggesting this is the best/right way to do things, simply that it is the way PN does things. Sometimes is leaves us with egg on our faces, but at least every member can know just what happened when and how. Instead of deciding based on either sides distorted version of reality.
 

Paratech

Pinball Wizard
There is no "Phantom of the Opera" table at AJs, it was removed, and now there is no version of that table. I'm glad I have a copy of some version of the table...
It's a shame its come to this, its unfortunate people have to wait for authors to redo tables that were removed because of politics...
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Paratech said:
There is no "Phantom of the Opera" table at AJs, it was removed, and now there is no version of that table. I'm glad I have a copy of some version of the table...
It's a shame its come to this, its unfortunate people have to wait for authors to redo tables that were removed because of politics...

That table is available here, so what's the problem?
 

Paratech

Pinball Wizard
For how long?
I guess I see the issues that happen at VPF being possible here and vica versa...
After all PacDude got into a hissy hear and left, whats to stop the same thing from repeating itself again?
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
There is no Phantom of the Opera table at AJ's, it was removed, Then Peter put it back. I PMed Peter and it was still there. I PMed nicolas.b and it was still there. I posted publicly and NOW it IS gone. I did not lie about it Paratech. If someone wants to redo it so theirs can be at AJ's, they can, they could have before. If I can't download my version, my version will never be there. Call that politics, call it what you want. I would not call it unfortunate though. If someone thinks that is the only place to obtain VPM tables, then maybe someone there should set them stright, don't you think?

If you think it's unfortunate, Paratech, that they have to wait for another author to redo it, then tell them they don't. Anyone that wants that or mmpac can have it. VPF can not, get over it.

Besides Paratech those were both fucking mods. mmpac (gaston's 2nd version) can be up there if they want it. poto 0.7 can be up there if they want it.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
Paratech said:
For how long?
I guess I see the issues that happen at VPF being possible here and vica versa...
After all PacDude got into a hissy hear and left, whats to stop the same thing from repeating itself again?

Fair point Paratech. It is possible that I could have them taken down from here to, but what the fuck is that to you? It's my work, and I can't even access it because of lies from that staff.

Sure, if TMFP, or nicolas.b was to be made staffers here, then I would see that as a very real possibility, but without those jerks, I just don't see that happening. I would not have taken my work from there, even after they banned me, for the sake of the users, if it wasn't for the fact that that is just one fucking site Paratech, not the only fucking site.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Earth to Paratech... Earth to Paratech... Come in please...

It's raining outside and I don't want you to get wet.
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
Shockman said:
There is no Phantom of the Opera table at AJ's, it was removed, Then Peter put it back. I PMed Peter and it was still there. I PMed nicolas.b and it was still there. I posted publicly and NOW it IS gone. I did not lie about it Paratech. If someone wants to redo it so theirs can be at AJ's, they can, they could have before. If I can't download my version, my version will never be there. Call that politics, call it what you want. I would not call it unfortunate though. If someone thinks that is the only place to obtain VPM tables, then maybe someone there should set them stright, don't you think?

If you think it's unfortunate, Paratech, that they have to wait for another author to redo it, then tell them they don't. Anyone that wants that or mmpac can have it. VPF can not, get over it.

Besides Paratech those were both fucking mods. mmpac (gaston's 2nd version) can be up there if they want it. poto 0.7 can be up there if they want it.
I agree 100%, table control should remain at the author's discretion, as much as possible.
 

Paratech

Pinball Wizard
Well authors do have control, to a limited degree, regarding their work, for as "bad" as VPF/PN are, they do remove tables at the authors request, although I'm sure there are sites that probably have tables without authors approval...

http://www.arcadeathome.com/pinball.phtml

Hmm, even Charline's table and mine? Intertesting, granted they are "old" versions, but do you see my point? Once you guys release tables, control of them dissapears...The only people affected by removing them are your fans...anyone who's new or didn't download your tables quick enough...

And Bob, it isn't rain, it's piss...and I have an umbrella, what's your excuse being out in the piss?
:lol:
 

Paratech

Pinball Wizard
BTW Shockman, I wasn't accusing you of lying, just letting you know it *PotO* was gone...I thought you didn't visit the area so you might not know.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
What everyone needs, is leverage. Nobody causing this much trouble is worth the effort. Tables can be replaced, and sure, they might not be 'as good', but it reflects on the author involved more than the site. Not my problem people are too stupid to see it. Wait until a forum reaches critical mass, and is expanding at less than 1%, and then have your tables removed after all the existing users have downloaded a copy. Then host newer versions on other sites, which those interested will grab them from these other sites and give them to their friends. Yep, that accomplishes a whole lot. Beg your pardon, but I just don't see how tables come off as more important than the people. Some tables I won't download just because of the specific people involved - whether they are hosted on some such site or not I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole, why should I care what you do? anyway, gonna get some sleep - I have more table dev work to do tomorrow. :)
 

Paratech

Pinball Wizard
Yeah, you make a good point there Destruk, I guess perhaps people should just stop having anything to do with authors who leave or find someone with the tables and get a copy. I mean, its not like table authors can keep people from sharing tables with one another...

And you're right if tables are "lost" there's always the possibility a non politically minded person will redo the table from scratch. While I think having to redo tables is a waste of time, its a solution that works, and there are only a few disgruntled authors who've left and taken their toys with them, hopefully it stays only a few...

:D
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
A lot of the problem is caused as much by the non-author audience, as it is by the selected authors themselves. Now this is only slightly tongue-in-cheek, but most people "worship" at the feet of a few VPM authors, so much so that said authors could release a blank table and they would still be lavished with praise. Now if a person is "idolized" often enough, they might just start believing the praise. So the beast has been created and fed by the same people who get all upset when the "larger than life" author decides he's better than everyone else. Said authors get the idea and attitude that they can say and do whatever thay dang well please.

And no, I'm not anti-VPM, although I am a flipperless author, I do play a majority of the VPM releases. And I'm not pointing my finger at any one author, since there have been at least several over the years. Sometimes they compete against each other in a war of words and insults, sometimes they simply "lord" it over us all until they paint themselves into a corner, and feel so foolish they leave the VP scene, and take their "golden throphies" with them. Maybe we'd better start being extra nice to Destruk, because if he ever pulled the tables he worked on, there might only be a100 or so tables left, probably less.

Rather than buttering up the fragile egos of some of our authors, why not applaud Destruk, jpsalas, kristian, and even the non-VPM authors who work quietly and without "dramatics" or much fanfare. Not every table by every author is a real masterpiece, but each one does take time and effort. So maybe if we show that we appreciate all our authors, the ones who sometimes are seen as being spoiled will realize they aren't nearly as all-important as they have been told they are. So if you've helped create the "monster", don't be surprised when he acts like a monster.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Paratech said:
And Bob, it isn't rain, it's piss...and I have an umbrella, what's your excuse being out in the piss?
:lol:

I'm the one pissing on your umbrella. 8)

My dad never called anyone stupid, he just said they didn't know enough to come in out of the rain.

I'd like to give you a tip.... Create a signature stating how you feel about removing tables and then you wouldn't have to type it every day.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I don't think a site should remove anything unless they want to.

Unless the site said, in a faq, for example, that it would on request.

I agree that once released, it's released. I also think that is as it should be. I'm happy that those files are being copied, downloaded, mailed etc.
I would have posted my work if they said something to the effect that once uploaded they stay, anyway.

Don't you dare read a change of mind into this though. This is just a statment of how it should be, in a perfect world I guess.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Site Supporters
GHoSTFaCe said:
I agree 100%, table control should remain at the author's discretion, as much as possible.
Have Fun..
It's NOT Possible, authors should Not release anything if distribution bugs them, KEEP Them to yourself or your little clan. I quit collecting and uploading Tables to alt.binaries.emulators.pinball because of a couple of screwballs @ VPF, Usenet does not care, Your tables ARE released to everyone in the world everyday , get over It or play them by yourselves.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
lol John...luckily most people aren't like that. Now if Williams/Bally/Stern/etc etc all came to us and said stop, then sure they'd be gone. Otherwise, it's more about the games than it is about the people. It should always be about the games, or what would the point be?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
destruk said:
lol John...luckily most people aren't like that. Now if Williams/Bally/Stern/etc etc all came to us and said stop, then sure they'd be gone. Otherwise, it's more about the games than it is about the people. It should always be about the games, or what would the point be?

You, me, and 99.97584231% of the world know this. It's the few glory hounds that give us all something/someone to point our fingers at and wonder what their problem is. To paraphrase Pogo; I've seen the problem, and it's Everyone Else. :p
 

Paratech

Pinball Wizard
bob said:
Paratech said:
And Bob, it isn't rain, it's piss...and I have an umbrella, what's your excuse being out in the piss?
:lol:

I'm the one pissing on your umbrella. 8)

My dad never called anyone stupid, he just said they didn't know enough to come in out of the rain.

I'd like to give you a tip.... Create a signature stating how you feel about removing tables and then you wouldn't have to type it every day.

See, unlike most of the "members" I like to try and make the situation better by trying to convince authors not to take down their work, obviously I've failed and at this point I'll drop the subject, for now, but I care about people being able to get tables, and the sites I visit. While I acknowledge the bad blood between some authors and some sites, I hold out hope that someday, those issues can be resolved...

I don't just download tables and watch the wars without trying to see if both sides cant be convinced to act differently. Its a terrible thing that divides table authors from end users...now maybe you just figure, I'll get what I want and tough shit if others can't, but I care...

I guess its nice to sit on the sidelines and not give a damn, and obviously you can do so, but I think differently...

:lol:
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Paratech said:
See, unlike most of the "members" I like to try and make the situation better by trying to convince authors not to take down their work, obviously I've failed and at this point I'll drop the subject, for now, but I care about people being able to get tables, and the sites I visit. While I acknowledge the bad blood between some authors and some sites, I hold out hope that someday, those issues can be resolved...

I don't just download tables and watch the wars without trying to see if both sides cant be convinced to act differently. Its a terrible thing that divides table authors from end users...now maybe you just figure, I'll get what I want and tough shit if others can't, but I care...

I guess its nice to sit on the sidelines and not give a damn, and obviously you can do so, but I think differently...

:lol:

Don't give up the fight if you believe in it, just don't expect to convince the "guilty" parties that they're wrong, or even part of the problem. Changing anyone's opinion when ego is involved is next to impossible, and I see this as being 98% ego driven.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
To leave any table that I have upload control over would be stupid, I would be freezing that table, at that version for what is probably the lions share of the users. While those that go to other sites will be getting new versions as long as I release them. Or do you think the guys would work out something where I could still get updates posted at AJ's? Oh, you do not!

That is why I was a bit keen to nicolas.b's word that I would be confined to the AC, because they would not have had to force this issue on us then. They would have been rid of me in the fourms, which they wanted, but I could have still downloaded, therefore uploaded tables, but I have to guess that they did not want that either.

I wish I could leave my tables up, I really do. But I can't. With no way to update them my hands are tied. It's not that I don't want my work on AJ's, I do, I want it there and everywhere. VPF seems to me to be the biggest archive and I just can't have my work frozen at the site that it would be downloaded from most. That's not fair to the members or the authors.

Why do yo think I would fight, rant, if you will, for a fucking exile to the AC? You think that's some kind of dream zone for me? It's because this crap would have been avoided. I thought that is why I was promised that, I thought we were on the same page.

It would be like going to a big name file server and seeing 'You can get all the newest files here but Word, microsoft made us cry so we won't let them update, so you can only get version 2.0 of that.'

Then there are other damn good reasons. Members turning on an author because of a locked table, comes to mind.

"I'll get what I want and tough shit if others can't, but I care... "
I believe you care, it shows, and it's all good. I think you are wrong that you need to convince the authors in many if not most cases.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Paratech said:
See, unlike most of the "members" I like to try and make the situation better by trying to convince authors not to take down their work, obviously I've failed and at this point I'll drop the subject, for now, but I care about people being able to get tables, and the sites I visit. While I acknowledge the bad blood between some authors and some sites, I hold out hope that someday, those issues can be resolved...

I don't just download tables and watch the wars without trying to see if both sides cant be convinced to act differently. Its a terrible thing that divides table authors from end users...now maybe you just figure, I'll get what I want and tough shit if others can't, but I care...

I guess its nice to sit on the sidelines and not give a damn, and obviously you can do so, but I think differently...

:lol:

Ok, I'm going to try and reply to this one last time without insulting your intelligence. AJ's only hosts VPM tables and you act like he is the ONLY site where people can get tables. AJ's or VPF's doesn't give a rats ass where Originals or EMs or anything else is hosted. There are lots of places to get tables, your argument is ridiculous. I WANT my tables on AJ's and he refuses to put them there, he doesn't want them there, just like Shocky doesn't want his tables there. What is the difference? Would you please start a campaign to get my tables hosted by VPF's so that more of the people you seem to care about could download them and try them out? All of the tables you think are missing are available somewhere, you just have to know where to look for them.
 
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