The UnAmericans

[sleepy]

This kind of thing pisses me off. Free speech should still be free speech, even on the 4th of July.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_re_us/us_upside_down_flag

Dispute over flag protest erupts in Wisc. village

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer – Fri Jul 10, 2:44 pm ET

WAUSAU, Wis. – An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it — an Iraq war veteran — claims the officers trespassed and stole his property.
A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest — over a liquor license — continued.
The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.
"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.
In mid-June, Congine, 46, began flying the flag upside down — an accepted way to signal distress — outside the restaurant he wants to open in Crivitz, a village of about 1,000 people some 65 miles north of Green Bay.
He said his distress is likely bankruptcy because the village board refused to grant him a liquor license after he spent nearly $200,000 to buy and remodel a downtown building for an Italian supper club.
Congine's upside-down-flag represents distress to him; to others in town, it represents disrespect of the flag.
Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine's property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.
Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.
"I said, 'What are you doing?' Klein said. "They said, 'It is none of your business.'"
The next day, police returned the flag.
Brey declined comment Friday.
Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.
"It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said.
The parade went on without any problems, Kanikula said.
Village President John Deschane, 60, an Army veteran who served in Vietnam, said many people in town believe it's disrespectful to fly the flag upside down.
"If he wants to protest, let him protest but find a different way to do it," Deschane said.
Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.
"It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else," Congine said, "and then I come home to find it right here at my front door."

 

[Rick2007]

Sleepy, I was born,,,, and grew up in Wisconsin.

This type of civil disobedience was just a normal part of
life in my world in the radical '60's and '70's'. We always questioned
authority every chance we could. I remember all of the protests, the riots,
and the Madison Bombing as events that helped shape my view
of the political world.
In particular was my participation in the Vietnam War protests.

I don't think that I still have my white and Blue Peace Arm band that we all wore to
protest the Vietnam War in High School. (The Draft that would send me to
Vietnam almost got me. I was 232 in the lottery in 1972.)
ANY HOO,,,,,,,Wisconsin has a long history of rebellion that I only came to
appreciate after I moved away.

I back the actions of Vito 100 percent.

 

[sleepy]

I was afraid I might be misconstrued.
I also back Vito, and I think it is dispicable how others assault this man on the 4th of July
because they are 'offended' by his response to their contempts.

They either never even bothered to ask what he meant by the flag, or they already decided against this man's Rights and they are now working to silence him.

 

[ANDROID]

I also live in Wisconsin graduated in 72 like Rick and appreciate Civil Rights/Liberties.
but
I also disagree with his approach.

I live 30 miles from Crivitz as we speak and have seen an inordinate amount of houses tuned into neighborhood bars. A fresh Coat of paint, knock down a wall and throw up an open sign and VOILA!!! another place to get people to drink and drive!!. Wisconsin's underage drinking and Drunken driving statistics and the death toll involved are deplorable per capita, thus the reason for limiting the liqour licenses.

Now this fella who spent 200,000 dollars to open a restaurant should have applied for a liquor license for future business with the city/county long before building and investing if he decided it would be an integral part of his business, and determining if getting one would be a problem.

You can only have so many bars per village/town/etc., so his assuming he would be granted a liquor license automatically doesn't fly around here. That is just poor planning. Obviously if his food is noteworthy he will do a good business and get his license eventually, because home/bar licenses are suspended or revoked many times for underage serving.

A better protest might have been flying a Crivitz or Wisconsin flag upside down. At least he didnt burn the US flag.!! As far as FINANCIAL distress and PHYSICAL distress are quite different reasons for flying our flag upside down, most of that he brought upon himself.

Flying the flag upside down is disgraceful, outrageous and shameful behavior for anyone let alone a veteran, and will not lend itself to obtaining a liquor license from the very city officials and council members he is trying/and succeeded in/ inciting. I think individual rights dont include desecration of our flag. I believe anyone burning our flag should lose their citizenship and be deported. IF you dont like it, protest, make signs describing your plight, and picket city hall, etc.

Should the cops have come and taken his flag........NO

He might as well have flown an upside down pentagram though around here.

Now Madtown wasnt too far removed from Haight Ashbury and UC Berkeley in the Other BAY AREA around " 72 and the end of the war. Youth around the country were protesting a failed war and polices and a lot of people got hurt, A professor at UW, 4 kids at Kent ST. Our freedoms are of speech, not violence as a way of change, that I dont agree with.

Of course in other countries, they would just not bother with the flag, they would take him outside and put a bullet in his head..CHINA, IRAN etc. and then burn his house down along with the flag.

OF COURSE THAT is just my opinion on the matter,

 

[mrschultz]

Have to wonder if this guy is successful in any business.

First he thought for some reason a liquor license was automatic and spent a lot of money building a business.

Then he pisses off the officials that would grant him the licence.

Then there's all the potential customers he is pissing off, that's the biggest mistake he is making.

But the cops taking the flag down was way over the line, with all the eminent domain abuses that go on a lot of local governments just think they can do whatever they want.

There are some really good restaurants near me that don't have a liquor licence, so they are BYOB, with a state store a few blocks away if you want a bottle of wine with your meal you walk down and get one, I think the store stocks extra of the small wine bottles just for those people, of course if you want a beer you are out of luck, crazy PA beer laws, want a 6 pack go to a bar and pay a lot, or else buy it by the case at a distributor...

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

i don't see a big issue with the police incident, although it could have been handled better. they let him fly the flag upside down ever since he first put it up and only stepped in on the most important day of the year concerning said item... to me that's not completely unreasonable, especially since they returned it the next day. so i'm filing this one under 'things that may offend a bit but aren't that big a deal, given the number of things which really are big deals and really do merit action'.

to me the biggest thing missing is information as to why the guy built the restaurant first and why the city council refused him his license-- unless we know things like that, we don't know whether the guy's protest is a rational, strategic one or an impatient, disastrous one. but i agree with marty- pissing off a segment of your future clientelle is not good, particularly since the smaller the town, the longer the memory.

 

[Rick2007]

Hello Android,,,,,,,, I do not challenge your point of view. I guess we grew up
under different circumstances. I remember my father driving off to work in the
1960's and then coming home 15 minutes later and telling us that the City was
rioting and he could not get to work.

Regarding Drinking and Driving, I would have to agree that in the '70's we
would get totally whacked out and then try to drive home at 2 AM.

Here is the only thing I might think is a good thing. Those neighborhood Bars
kept the people off of the streets. Drink yourself silly but You could always
walk or stumble home. I really liked the old Milwaukee neighboorhoods
that had a corner Bar. They were very fun and always welcomed us.

On to Violence,,,,,,,,,,,I sometimeas think that it is a necessary evil,,
but don't ask me to participate. I often capture a bug in my house and
release it outside. I find no reason to kill it.

And also,, Android, I now miss having a great meal of DEEP FRIED SMELT
at the Norske Nook. Do you like smelt? Or how about snagging fish in the fall.
I think they were Coho Salmon swimming up a canal somewhere around
Door County. Is there still a restaurant in Door County that has goats
eating grass on the roof??? And Do You Own a Share of Green Bay Packer Stock?
IF yes,,,,will you be going to the upcoming share holder meeting? Sorry but I
will not be able to attend. I do love Wisconsin,,,,, I had to move to a warm
climate for health reasons!!!!!

 

[sleepy]

Health sucks, don't it?

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate it when I got it.

 

[Mudfinger]

they let him fly the flag upside down ever since he first put it up and only stepped in on the most important day of the year concerning said item...

The lack of "logic" is disturbing. "They let him..." assumes the police have a right to decide what free speech is or isn't. They Don't! .. EVER!

"The most important day of the year concerning said item..."
The day when we celebrate our liberty and freedom is the day the cops take away someones liberty and freedom!

The first amendment's guarantee of "free speech" is there to defend "offensive" speech. (who needs protection for non-offensive speech)

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

"i'd rather be right than win."

thank god i'm past that stage. *knock on wood*

like i said, far more important things to worry about, like peak oil hitting harder than ever while we still have our pants around our ankles on how to replace it, the coming global market mega collapse, farmland production continuing to drop due to AGCC, and people with the biggest entitlement complex and the highest gun ownership in the world (ie, the US) turning ornery when the goodies go and the basic resources falter not long after.

try waving your parchment documents at the other guy when law and order has lost much of its control and it's dog eat dog (and this time not figuratively) to provide for your family.

 

[TomcatLeader]

I remember the Kent State incident, being from Cincinnati. The police were TOTALLY wrong for taking down the flag, at the "request" of the DA. Isn't that abuse of power? I would think the DA has bigger fish to fry, pardon the pun Rick. :)

 

[bob]

The lack of "logic" is disturbing. "They let him..." assumes the police have a right to decide what free speech is or isn't. They Don't! .. EVER!

"The most important day of the year concerning said item..."
The day when we celebrate our liberty and freedom is the day the cops take away someones liberty and freedom!

The first amendment's guarantee of "free speech" is there to defend "offensive" speech. (who needs protection for non-offensive speech)

Excellent post!

I also thought about this issue as the guy being an idiot and didn't really care one way or the other about him having his flag removed on the 4th. Your post reminds us of the freedoms that we have in this country and why we will fight to keep it. God bless the USA!

 

[yogiholzer]

I saved me translation of all of your posts, so I don't understand much here, but what I don't understand at all is: Why is it a drama to have the flag upside-down? Who cares?

 

[mrschultz]

The lack of "logic" is disturbing. "They let him..." assumes the police have a right to decide what free speech is or isn't. They Don't! .. EVER!

"The most important day of the year concerning said item..."
The day when we celebrate our liberty and freedom is the day the cops take away someones liberty and freedom!

The first amendment's guarantee of "free speech" is there to defend "offensive" speech. (who needs protection for non-offensive speech)

Nice catch on the "let him" part, unless there is a specific law preventing the flag from being flown upside down then the DA and police had no authority what so ever to go onto his property and take down the flag.

This stuff has been going on since day one, just got the John Adams miniseries on Blu-Ray (really looks fantastic in HD), the little bit they did on the alien and sedition acts was interesting.

 

[faralos]

In jersey my home state you don't need a liquor license if people bring their own. most pizza places actually, whether the owner knows this or not, also gets by that loophole by having the legal right to let customers drink their own wine or beer as long as they are legal drinking age and no one tries to sell it. all this guy has to do is advertise it's a byob establishment. problem solved for now anyway sure he makes no money with booze sales but he opens the place up for people to bring their favorite liquors.

 

[Phoenixx]

Frankly, the way i fly my flags on my property should be my concern only.

After all we do not live in China, so nobody has the right to make a mockery of my right to freedom of speech, expression and opinion.

If anyone doesnt like the way i fly my flags, tough luck, look away then.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

This stuff has been going on since day one, just got the John Adams miniseries on Blu-Ray (really looks fantastic in HD), the little bit they did on the alien and sedition acts was interesting.

i'd like to hear your comments / review, if you feel up to sharing. (and anybody else who saw it)

i watched the series not too long ago and was struck by how little things have changed in certain ways... that and other mildly insightful stuff which i can't remember the rest of right now but seemed pretty important at the time.

 

[mrschultz]

i'd like to hear your comments / review, if you feel up to sharing. (and anybody else who saw it)

i watched the series not too long ago and was struck by how little things have changed in certain ways...

The more history you look at the more you realize how little people have changed in the last few thousand years.

As for the series, I love it, they really went all out for historical accuracy even in little details.

Then there's the story. John Adams was such a strange character it would be fairly compelling just following his life, but add the relationships with his wife and children and it's really a hell of a drama.

The guy playing Washington was great, in fact it's hard to find any faults with any of the supporting roles, only Franklin seemed to be flirting close to the standard caricature of him.

I learned a few things that I had to go look up just to see if they were real, his friend/foe/friend relationship with Jefferson and the fact that they both died on the 4th at the 50th anniversary of the declaration.

Really worth the wait to get it on Blu-Ray, it was out on DVD for a year but it looks so much better in HD, I was only going to watch one episode a day but it's so engrossing I ended up watching the last 4 episodes back to back...

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

thanks... always good to hear a fellow's insights.

i started to write some thoughts on the john adams series just now and realised that i've been posting an awful lot of overly-detailed opinion pieces lately which are possibly not appropriate for a forums like this. might be a good time to STFU. :)

 

[ANDROID]

Latest News,
I dont know how much follow up Congine is getting regionally, but Tuesday last 14th, he said he doesn't care what people think. He's gonna keep on flying his flag upside down untill------>>>>
A) They grant him a liquor license or
B) Someone buys his $200,000 property from him.

Again as mentioned flying the flag upside down is a nationally accepted distress signal.

The news anchor covering the story that day mentioned the same things that were iterated before.
1) He is not in distress physically
2) Unaware of the zoning laws and capacity of his area
3) For thirty dollars he could have purchased the flag of Crivitz the town his restaurant is in, and fly it upside down. This is a City/County issue first, then state.
4) It was also mentioned by the anchor persons about losing most of his would be customers, hard working godfearing flag waving midwesterners.

These tactics probably work well in the old country.

 

[Mudfinger]

Latest News,
I dont know how much follow up Congine is getting regionally, but Tuesday last 14th, he said he doesn't care what people think. He's gonna keep on flying his flag upside down untill------>>>>
A) They grant him a liquor license or
B) Someone buys his $200,000 property from him.

Again as mentioned flying the flag upside down is a nationally accepted distress signal.

The news anchor covering the story that day mentioned the same things that were iterated before.
1) He is not in distress physically
2) Unaware of the zoning laws and capacity of his area
3) For thirty dollars he could have purchased the flag of Crivitz the town his restaurant is in, and fly it upside down. This is a City/County issue first, then state.
4) It was also mentioned by the anchor persons about losing most of his would be customers, hard working godfearing flag waving midwesterners.

These tactics probably work well in the old country.

The focus of the news article was about the guys civil rights being violated by the cops and the local DA.

Now I see its turning into how big a douche bag the restaurant owner is.

This may be true, but just as when the ACLU defends the rights of some extremist group like the KKK or The Communist Party, people accuse them of somehow siding ideologically with them.....THEY MISS THE POINT!

The denial of civil rights is probably 1000 times more of an issue than any specific beef like a guys fight to get a liquor license.

This is why the story is of ANY real news interest to begin with.

 

[ANDROID]

The ONLY thing that made it newsworthy is the ACLU and his rights!!, is only YOUR OPINION of the article, dont forget that!! That is what YOU chose to Focus on.

Douchebag, is your opinion of Congine,

Free speech is one thing, Desecration of OUR flag should not be a civil right!! Try swearing at a police officer the next time he pulls you over for a violation, see how well your Free Speech works. All freedoms have some limitations.

ALL soldiers/veterans were sworn in, by the PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, including Congine, then he shuns it because it doesnt suit his monetary needs.

86% of the Citizens of the United States believe in GOD, in all his forms/religions, and want the Pledge of Allegiance in Schools. It's the 14%, like the the squeaky wheel, who gets all the grease, in the form of the ACLU who figure that one in seven should have the final say, because his/her atheist rights are violated. So consequently there is no Pledge of allegiance in schools!!

On our Independence Day, the fine citizens of Crivitz, were able to watch the parade without a hitch!! EXCELLENT!! I applaud their swift and timely action.

OLD GLORY is a glorious symbol of our country that people have written about, sung to, fought for, carried during battle, and should NEVER be subjected to a shameful display on the birthday of our nation. Ask a hundred different Americans, of race, age, sex, military, or civilian and see if they think Congine should fly his flag upside down or not on the Fouth of July. I wouldnt even give him his flag back! If any of you fellow pinheads, who actually fly a US flag, feel like Congine's rights were really violated, then fly your own flag upside down, as a show of support. OH, but wait, that would be the wrong way to protest, wouldn't it!!! Like Congine, you should use a different way to protest!!

In our quest for civil liberties, garanteed by the constitution, everyone bends it to suit their own needs. It is still a 233 year old document, that isn't set in stone. Every Amendment changes it, and blurs the original vision. But, like the automobile, with time comes innovation, and a necessity to change the original design to suit the melting pot that is our country.

Of course that is my OPINION on the matter!! nuff said!!

 

[mrschultz]

86% of the Citizens of the United States believe in GOD, in all his forms/religions, and want the Pledge of Allegiance in Schools. It's the 14%, like the the squeaky wheel, who gets all the grease, in the form of the ACLU who figure that one in seven should have the final say, because his/her atheist rights are violated. So consequently there is no Pledge of allegiance in schools!!

Guess you really don't understand the concept of "all the people".

Mob (majority) rule is not what this country is all about, even if the idiots on TV say it is.

If 1% of some citizens rights are being violated that is a cause for action.

 

[sleepy]

Yep. We need to defend Liberty and Justice, because it is Liberty and Justice by neutrality in the public sector that defends the concepts of God and Religion for each individual to choose to obey for himself, or not, and Free Speech. God and Religion will never ever defend Liberty or Justice or the Right to exercise either one's own personal conscience to one's self or Free Speech to anyone else who cares to listen, not when enforced by Mortals who may have special interests at heart as in Power over others for personal advantages.

 

[scapino]

I was in the Navy. I never took an oath to the flag. We were sworn in to "Preserve, protect and defend the CONSTITUTION!"

My dad flys his flag upside down sometimes, when he feels the country is heading down the wrong path.

This IS free speech, and as its part of the CONSTITUTION, thats what is important.

It's funny, most conservatives I know have no problem worshiping the flag like its some holy relic, but they HATE the constitution, because it protects the minority from the majority.

Kurt