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The VP Underground

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
So what does everyone think of Des Angel's return from the "VP Underground" to bless us surface dwellers with a couple of newly "rebuilt" VPM games? It sounds like they use the versions by Kristian as a template starting point, which is odd since from what I've seen Kristian's versions are VASTLY superior looking. Who ever heard of a "rebuild" that came out worse than the original? Worse yet they're locked so you can't adjust anything. They also seem to be huge (I'm guessing BMPs everywhere so we can't 'steal' any of those copyrighted photos he's using with a JPG ripper or whatever-- lke there'd be any point when Kristian's tables look so much nicer already and are unlocked). I'm steering wide of them, personally, but I didn't want to rain on DA's parade over at VPF so I thought I'd ask for some honest opinions here instead.

As someone pointed out to me in a PM at VPF, he seemed more upset about this "VP Underground" business. I'm sure most of us have heard of this elitists that trade tables person-to-person for fear of modders (or is it reviewers?), but most of the people associated with it have denied any such thing goes on even though we've seen photos of tables like Fireball Classic by Apocalypse at Shivasite before that apparently was never released (at least publicly). And we all know KC has a group he releases tables to privately. But beyond that, is there some secrete web site? Comments by DA to send comments through the underground and he'll get them are just cryptic as if we're all supposed to have a fudging clue what's he talking about. Thanks, but no thanks. I like the surface.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
The tables are locked, so I didn't bother with them....

I think the VP Underground is more like a Gottlieb chatroom group, but maybe shiva could enlighten us since he once advertised for authors who didn't want to release publicly to PM him about a private VP underground table sharing group at the old shivasite.

I also like the surface...
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
No underground my end. That was over years ago (Known as VPMx BTW) and it wasn't a real secret, it was just a bunch of people that got together and shared some ideas. Since a lot of tables came out because of it, I guess it was successful, but there was no need for it after a while.

(Don't forget, this was during the Nicky era as well, and a lot of authors were pretty fed up at the time)

Nowdays, there's none that I know of, but then, I'm not exactly welcome in some places. The only place I know of that shows things available to some people is my supporting members board, and all that is are my latest personal projects anyway, not exactly earth shattering.

I knew that DesAngel locks his tables, I don't download them either, because of dial up. i always wait for a week or so in case there's a update, and most of the times I end up forgetting about it
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
While I don't/can't play VPM any longer, I was a minor part of the VPMx group. The stated goal was to produce ?high quality? tables, and the reason the group broke up is an old story, egos got in the way of cooperation. The only fault I had was that only the Gig Shots got credit for their work. I helped on one table by redrawing part of the playfield, and when the table was released, I wasn't mentioned. That's OK by me, I'm not a glory hound, but some of those folks were. I mostly wrote rules documentation.

I don't remember who all was part of the group, but it started out with a lot of ambitious plans and burnt out fairly quickly becuase of egos and an internal struggle over who would be in charge. There was also a rule that no VPMx table would be locked, and of course that didn't set well with some of them. IMNSHO, the locking feature was the worst thing ever added to VP.

John
 

ValamirCleaver

Pinball Wizard
I'd have to agree with you PD that Kristian's Laser Cue release was much better than DesAngel's recent one. I feel the same about Phoenix also. What I don't personally understand is that the moderators get all up in arms over the mere inference of a so-called unauthorized mod, but don't bat an eye at the "nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyyyaaahhh..." mention of private releases.

Tom
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
underground , shmunderground
we daylighters have pacy, and he is the bees knees

I hate locked tables, as a noob, I like to be able to explore a table and see how the author puts them together
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I always wonder what authors who lock their tables are trying to hide. Maybe they're ashamed that their coding is even worse than mine before Patrick fixes it for me.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I find even more ironic that the "rebuilds" apparently are based off the pre-existing OPEN tables (at least as a template or something or why else would he mention them as the previous one and call them "rebuilt" instead of "built from scratch"? So you taken an open to mod table as a starter and then LOCK your end result? Isn't that a little like taking an open source game, rebuilding parts of it and then releasing as a commercial game (not quite the same, but still). Maybe I should put a new disclaimer in my "open to mod" statement that says mods or other uses of the table may result in a locked table. I say force them to start from scratch if they're going to lock up the end results.

Heck, I noticed even the Apoc/Destruk version of Breakshot is partially locked (image and sound editors are locked). So you can't replace any graphics or add backdrops, etc. The table info says it's just that way until Apoc can figure out how to add a full cabinet, etc. I guess that never happened and probably never will. All the lock does is make sure no one else can add the cabinet for him (a little self-defeating since he apparently either cannot figure out how to make one or doesn't care to bother anymore). Then there's KC's version which I never even downloaded and apparently can't at this point since he's removed the table, but I suppose it was fully locked. In any case, my brand new from scratch Breakshot will be available within the next day or so and will have no locks at all (save the center pocket ball locks, of course) ;)
 

ValamirCleaver

Pinball Wizard
PD

Why don't you and Kristian just revise your table info to say that your releases are free to mod by anyone except by those who have previously publicly released a locked table and in any event no mods that are in any way based in your previous releases are allowed to be publicly released locked. I know certain individuals will take umbrage at that but too bad for them. Why should you or Kristian potentially allow others to use your work if they are not going to do the same.

Tom
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Well, updating all those table infos just to do that is a chore and frankly, it does strike me as a bit "spiteful" to do it just for that reason. I mean just because they're asses, why do I have to be one? Besides, DA's table quality speaks for itself. Why bother?
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I think Des Angel's return from the "VP Underground" to bless us surface dwellers with a couple of newly "rebuilt" VPM games could not be that bad.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
OK, we are on topic now, so let's go.

Spiteful? yeah, I agree it would be. I agree that it would make you an ass if you did something hateful out of spite. You know what I'm talking about, PacDude, old victim of mine.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Someday, maybe the VP Underground will be a new group where they release tables made with UltraPin's VP :) We're never going to be given it publicly, so maybe someone will share it with us.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
I agree with John that the lock feature was the worst thing ever added to VP. I also think that is what caused Randy's disenchantment with the whole thing.
 

Kinsey

Pinball Wizard
Actually, all of VPU's releases were publicly released. There were no "secret" releases. They were just locked, as they should be.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Shockman said:
I agree with John that the lock feature was the worst thing ever added to VP. I also think that is what caused Randy's disenchantment with the whole thing.

Keep in mind that eventually you and Bizzle caused me to rethink things. My last few releases were indeed locked. If I hadn't retired, everything would have been locked.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
So do spiteful asses, and their flippers. I will re-release your tables then. You should see Fire Power now. Increased slope, changed elastic, flipper length, size, swing, and speed. WW is going to be the shit though. I'll call the series 'Reality Mods'. Enjoy your new core, and near instant gimpy flippers.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Can't recall VPU ever releasing a firepower pinball?

I just hope that if or when a new VP is released the locking feature will be removed, actually I seem to recall someone mentioning that indeed the lock feature had been removed in the ultrapin version.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Shockman said:
So do spiteful asses, and their flippers.

That's pretty damn funny coming from someone that has been nothing but spiteful every since he was first banned temporarily from VPF. Just look at your posts. You're the king of spiteful.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
My work on mmpac was not spite, it was needed because balls would go through the flipper, because of changes made to the support file. The result was a better system. A system that works well with every table I have tried it on. If you want me to be the only one that benefits from it, then that is what I and wikipedia, would call spite, and indeed a losing situation, for everyone that wants these simulations to be as realistic as possible. I was no more arrogant about it than he was when he was modding tables.
I said that I would offer them privately through PM. I think my response to Johns ranting about 'my buddy Ron' had anything to do with my loosing PMs, but that alone.

I promised I would not respond to John in PM any more, but I did not promise that I would not share this with anyone that PMed me.

Why can't I have PM's again?
 
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