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To those who are anti-fliiperless

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I’m forever reading comments about why certain members of the VP community WON’T EVER play a flipperless table. The latest one I saw said something like, Never have, never will. Now that really is a great attitude, condemn an entire grouping of tables before you have given them a chance. If you’ve NEVER play a single game of flipperless, how can you make any sort of value judgment on their merits? I urge you to loosen up and give flipperless and novelty tables a try, you might be pleasantly surprised. Now I’m a fan first of bagatelle, then early coin-ops, payouts, bingos, and EMs. But I have also played and enjoyed countless SS and VPM tables, although I detest more than two flippers, and loathe the retched electronic sounds of SS tables. I also bemoan the fact of the vast majority of originals having music which gives me a big earache, and so many sounds that I have to turn off my speakers to save what sanity I still possess.

So why do I play tables from eras that aren’t my favorite? So I can experience the full pinball spectrum. And because I enjoy a good challenge, and most flippered tables are real challenges for my less than stellar skills. So let me try to rationalize away your reasons for never playing flipperless games.

They’re boring! How can you call a game boring in which you have to nudge and steer your ball past pins that seldom react in the same way twice? The speed of the ball determines just how hard the ball will bounce off a pin, and you can never be sure which angle that bounce will take. To play a solid game of flipperless you need to do much more than you ever need to do during a game on a flippered table. And some flipperless now have multi-nudge, meaning that the table moves not only up and sideways, but also diagonally. In fact, my last several tables even had stronger nudging force, to give experienced flipperless players a chance to better control the ball, and to help keep the ball in play longer.

They don’t have any really neat features! Hogwash. There are a number of coin-ops that had tilt detectors that would make the latest Stern pin proud. And there are tables from the 30s and 40s that might not have had flippers, but they did have kick- out holes, cannon that shot the ball back up the playfield to collect healthy bonuses. Add to that any number of flipperless originals with ball transporter cups, multiball, bonus advance and multipliers, as well as inventive and creative layouts. And a good number of flipperless, recreations and originals, have ramps, yes ramps. But you wouldn’t know that, since you have never played a flipperless table.

Flipperless are too low scoring! Many are low scoring, but they are low scoring for anyone who plays them, so what does that matter. Is your ego so small that it really needs a score of 99 trillion million to make you feel like the Big Man On Campus? Scoring should never dictate if you had fun play a table or not. Scoring can only tell you if you beat your buddy, or if you are going to have to buy the next round.

Flipperless tables are too slow! If you really believe that, DL my Flipperless Bronco Buster, play a few games, and then tell me that again. The one comment I have heard most about Flipperless Bronco Buster is that it plays so fast that folks lose the ball just when the going gets good. Well, practice you nudging, and I assure you that you’ll cut down on the number of fast drains.

Flipperless tables don't have any music! That's one of the best things about them, IMNSHO. I love hearing the pinball sounds and nothing else. If you must have music, play a CD in the background.

Personally, I couldn’t care less if you play flipperless or not. I simply hate to see anyone write off nearly 200 flipperless and novelty tables sight unseen. I challenge you to DL Druadic’s Contact, practice your nudging for a half dozen games, and tell me that it’s a boring, run-of-the-mill game. If you’re honest, you’ll have to admit that you were impressed. And just maybe you might even be hooked, and want to check out a few more of those dreaded flipperless tables.

tiltjlp
 

kristian

Pinball Wizard
I have played and tested all those best flipperless recreations and have them all in my vp folder. I agree, many of those conversions are very impressive.

Emulation is mainly attracting people because of nostalgic reasons. Being in my 30's it's hard for me to get crazy about those flipperless tables that were made long before I was even born. I play tables from the 80's and 90's because I want to experience those games from my own youth. It still won't stop me appreciating those flipperless tables, they're very important and essential documents of VP and I'm sure they have their target audience as well.

It would be nice to try a real flipperless table sometimes. I'm not sure how well those recreations can emulate the real things because I have no experience of the real ones. The oldest real tables I've played were from the late 60's. They were "budget tables" when I was about 8-9 years old. Aztec, Strato Flite, Klondike, Space Odyssey etc.

I appreciate what you guys are doing. Devotion and passion are noble things and very rare these days. Not everything is measured in download counts or the amount of replies in vp world. Just like in art and music there's commercial success and artistic success. They don't always go hand in hand which is a shame.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I agree with what you said about preferring tables from your growing up years, which is why I enjoy the EMs from the 50s and 60s so much. The reason I am so passionate about flipperless and bagatelle is that I had a few Northwestern Bagatelles when I was a kid. And beside, I am not at all any good with flippers, since I have very, very poor hand and eye coordination.

I'm not expecting to get people to like flipperless as much as I do, but I'd like to see more of them be the way you are, and at least give them a try. I simply don't understand someone saying that they won't ever play tables from any era. While I enjoy some tables more than others, there are very few that I disliked enough never to play again, and I play any type of table, up to the most modern. And boy do I dislike tables with flippers all over the place, and nothing but ramps.

But it's all a matter of what you prefer, and having an open mind to try something new. Too bad more folks aren't as cool as you are, Big K.

tiltjlp
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
tiltjlp said:
I detest more than two flippers, and loathe the retched electronic sounds of SS tables. I also bemoan the fact of the vast majority of originals having music which gives me a big earache, and so many sounds that I have to turn off my speakers to save what sanity I still possess.

I'm not sure if insulting the tables these so-called anti-flipperless people enjoy is the best approach to trying to get them to try a flipperless table. In any case, I think the major difference between any flipper game and any non-flipper game is about the same difference between playing a video game with only a fire button that doesn't even fire at the bad guys, but just reloads the gun while the video game does all the work and playing a game that lets you use a joystick and/or a mouse and keyboard to move around, shoot, etc. right at the bad guys. You simply lack the amount of control and ability to participate directly in the game on a flipperless table that you have in one that has flippers. Mind you, some EM games might as well NOT have flippers because of their ridiculous arrangements in regards to the table that the ball almost never goes anywhere near them to allow you any ball control. BALL CONTROL is the primary point of a modern pinball game. Without it, you're just playing plinko on the Price Is Right. Now I'm not saying I don't like Plinko (it's fun in a "lottery" kind of way), but plinko and High Speed have very little in common with each other. Yeah, there's nudging, but nudging has never been a strong-suit of pinball simulation in general, IMO (not like on a real game). And it's about the equivalent of trying to get a golf ball to go in a hole at a miniature golf course by picking up the artificial green carpeting and manipulating it to try and make the ball go in the hole whereas flippers is like using golf club. They're two very different games at that point. I personally prefer to use a golf club when playing golf.

They’re boring! How can you call a game boring in which you have to nudge and steer your ball past pins that seldom react in the same way twice?

You really DON'T want me to answer that. :evil:
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Heck I'll give any table a shake, though there in lies the problem for me, whilst the VP ball physics are really quite good, I cannot say the same about the nudge and bump physics, which to me at least seem to miss the mark by a much larger margin. The art of nudging of course is a far more analog and variable thing, whilst VP more then likely does recreate the bump and nudge to a fair degree, that's just not the way I played. I used to grab a machine and shake it more then nudge or bump it. A firm grip and often man handling the machine, though I did hardly ever tilt, a firm up an down shake worked better for me, something which VP just does not recreate.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Soory PD, if it sounded like I was insulting more modern tables. I was only trying to explain how I feel about them in comparison to bagatelle and flipperless, which are my passion.

I have played and enjoyed VP pins of all eras, VPM tables too, and those are awesome, especially most of yours I've tried. It's just that given a choice and a limited amount of time, I'll choose a flipperless every time.

And yes, I have no problem with someone not caring for flipperless, but to decide against them with never having tried a few simply doesn't seem right to me.

tiltjlp
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
I think more people might try a flipperless if the screenshot looked exciting :) Try putting some hot babes in thongs on the playingfield

I must say I haven't found a flipperless table yet that I kept or even remember much about and I think I made a couple of them :D I have never tasted certain foods and people use this same argument on me, but I tell them the same as I'm telling you now... If it looks like $h!t or smells like $h!t, then I'm gonna just assume it's $h!t. Now this doesn't mean I don't think there's a place for flipperless, I'm just trying to explain why so few people are interested in them. Most people find VP while looking for pinball stuff and flipperless is just at the bottom of the list. Bottom line is... If you want to push this stuff, you'll have to include a prize or sex it up a little.

Bob
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
You are a trip, Bob

Yeah, I know that flipperless and especially Bagatelle will never be very popular, and that's OK. But I still think my original point is valid, why say no to something when you haven't tried it, and now I'm talking Pinball only.

Some folks, notable Kristien, tried flipperless at the urging of flipperless authors, and while they still aren't his favorite kind of pins, he enjoys them for both their play value and the history.

In addition to bagatelle and flipperless, I play EMs, SS, and VPM. And I enjoy most all of them, although I always turn off my speakers when I play SS tables. I hate those tinny electronic noises. Again, it comes back to my main point, you might not care for them, but how will you know if you never try any?

tiltjlp

You do love Skyline, or at least that style of chili, don't you, Bob?
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Bob speaks out!

Skyline Chili sucks!! :p

Yes, your original point is valid, but I still think that if Druadic made the very first video game, instead of the Pong person, the video/computer craze wouldn't exist today :lol: I bet you even tried and like brussel sprouts 8)

Bob :twisted:
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Brussels Sprouts, YUM

Yes, in fact I do, and although I like Skyline, I prefer Gold Star. Some would go good right now, and so would a bag of Sliders. I'll bet you don't like Goetta either. Are you sure you're an Ohioian?

tiltjlp
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
bob said:
Bob speaks out!

Ohioian? I am a Buckeye!!

I have never had any Sliders or Goetta, I don't even know what they are, they must be some Cinci thing. How do they look and smell? :p

Bob :twisted:
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Well

An Ohionian and a Buckeye are one in the same. Sliders are Whilt Castles which I can't image you've never had. And Goetta, never had any, what a shame. It's a Cincinnati Greman delight. It's made with pinhead oatmeal and ground meat, usually pork, but also pork and beef.

You can find it in either rolls, or if you're lucky, a small brick. You slice it and fry it up nice and crispy and a breakfast go-along instead of bacon. It seems almost as good as it tastes. You probably can get it at a Dayton Krogers, or PM me your address and I'll send you one of the rolls in my frezzer. For a Buckeye, you have led a sheltered life, Bob. :p

tiltjlp
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Sorry, Skyline and Gold Star BOTH suck. Yuck. I threw up for 8 hours straight one time after eating Cincinatti chili one time (ok my mother made it for my brother, but still). Even Bob Evans chili wipes that stuff out (actually it's good mostly because it's made with sausage instead of beef).

But if I'm in the Cinci area, I go to LaRosa's pizza. Yummy. I miss Noble Roman's pizza now (used to be around where I'm at in Ohio, but no longer save some small personal pan type stuff in Bowling Alleys and what not. They used to have a nice place in Canton where they'd show old cartoons on a film projector (back in the day before big-screens were common), had a window to watch them toss pizzas and generally had the best deep dish pizza around. We were poor when I was growing up so a $5 coupon to get a large pizza at Noble Romans (plus a pitcher of pop) was the most my family would do for going out to eat most of the time. I never noticed when I was a kid, really, but I still miss Noble Romans. I guess they're huge in Indianapolis (where their HQ is). The one in Canton went under when the owner decided he'd rather run a sports bar instead (which then promptly went under as being unpopular whereas Noble Romans always did great in the Beldin Village area...now the building houses an orthodontist of all things.)

I went through a White Castle phase, but I don't go much for fast food hamburgers anymore. Wendy's probably has the closest to a homemade hamburger along those lines, though. White Castles taste like meatloaf on a bun, really.

Darn, I'm getting hungry....
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Neatloaf?

So that explains why I crave White Castles, since I love meat loaf. And as for Cincinnati Style Chili, it's probably an acquired taste. But you're on the money about LaRosa's. One of the few places where you can still get anchovies around here.

Luckily I have some self control, or I'd gain back all the weight I've lost the past few years getting reacquainted with all my hometown favorites.

tiltjlp

PS: talk about a thread that has gone off topic. If this was someplace else I guess I'd have to close this thread, huh?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Meat Loaf the singer? Probably not unless he sings some mean Blues! Isn't he one of those singers who looks like a caveman, and almost sounds like one too. Blues come first, and then 50s and 60s US Rock and Roll.

Keep in mind I'm not a Spring chicken . . . more like an old goat. :p

tiltjlp
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
I am here now

OK, you have quoted me in your main post. ( i am not complaining, but it was my coment back at VPF that sems to have sparked your thought)

I am here, I will give it a try
Can you reccomend some well made flipperless tables for me to try
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Yes I can, and I appreciate you being open to giving some a try. Not that I expect flipperless will all of a sudden become your favorite tables, but I think I can suggest some recreations that you might enjoy, And every one I suggest is available here, just use the Download link here, and then the sidebar Download link on our table page.

I think these tables by Druadic might show you a good variety. Gateway, Zipper Skill, Bonanza, which is a one ball payout game, Contact, Hi-Lo, Cloverleaf, and Silver Streak, another one ball pay out.. You also might like Seven Up, by me, Nissananimal, and Russ Jensen.

You might also look at either Bingo table by Hung, which are challenging. The thing to realize is that flipperless need to be nudged to really get the full experience of the games. And each table will react a bit differently to nudging.

Thanks for giving flipperless tables a try, and if you like some or most of these, I can suggest a lot more to try. I just didn't want to overwhelm you. And just as with flippered games, a few are great, most are good, and a few simply don't measure up.

tiltjlp
 

Pop Bumper Pete

Pinball Pirate
Site Supporters
Ok, thankyou, I will download some of these and give them a nudge (ha ha)
I have just tried Brewery Blaster (an original design) enjoyable enough but I could not help thinking 'this would be great if it had flippers'
I think people want to play the machines they played when they were 12. That for me is when filppers got longer (mid 70's) and solid state was almost here. In my opinion the machines made from 75-83 are the ones I feel the most affection for.

I have never seen a flipperless table in the flesh, nor a Bingo machine. And when I first heard of this site I thought someone was having a joke. The oldes machines I have played are the Baseball types, and some skill tester machines,
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Recapturing our youth

I agree you you completely, except that I played my first pin when I was 4 1/2, standing on an overturned wooden beer case. That was the early summer of 1950, so the games I grew up on were the earliest EMs, and older flipperless coin-ops from before WWII.

And something else that might interest you are some pics and facts about old time Trade Stimulators. They were similar to pin games, but always gave some sort of small prize. The idea was you'd risk a penny to win from one to ten cigars, and anything over two was nearly impossible, and then you'd stay and maybe purcahse something from that shop.

The only Trade Stimulator made for VP is 1903s Log Cabin, also done by Druadic, and also here. Let us know what you think. For me, I enjoy the challenge of pinball, and flipperless are more challening, I think.

tiltjlp
 
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