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VPU, not the Evil Empire after all.

Status
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tiltjlp

PN co-founder
At a time when the VP community has weathered yet another storm of sorts, we are offered a new forum to consider as a gathering place. The VP Underground is up and running, but is still a work in progress. And from what I have seen, it can progress without me. I’ll check back every so often to see if once it is fully operational, if it appeals to me a bit more than it does now. Somehow I doubt that it will.

While it’s still a bit too soon to know for sure how the new staffers at VPF will function, knowing them as I do, I would expect that they will be open-minder and willing to at least listen to differing opinions and viewpoints. I’m not so sure the same will be true at VPU. And just because I don’t agree with a lot of Gottlieb’s viewpoints aren’t the only reason I have my doubts, although that sure is a big factor.

Gottlieb seems to have a problem remembering that the VP community is about Pinball, and only Pinball. He wants to interject his personal religious, political, and morality viewpoints on the community, and that I do object to most of all. It doesn’t matter that I disagree with most every one of his viewpoints, they would be out of place even if I agreed with him completely. But the worst part of all this is that recent comments by Gottlieb at VPF are not only out of line, rude, and insulting to every VP community member, they also violate the standards he claims to live by.

I can’t and won’t be a part of any forum where I feel my opinions and comments will be censored, and will not be given serious consideration. VPU’s only stated rule is Don’t Be Annoying, and Gottlieb, along with several pals who share his viewpoint, decide what is annoying. They should at least post a list of what they consider annoying, but then they wouldn’t be able to attack those who they disagree with. That creates the possibilities for a very hostile environment, if you ask me.

I might not agree with everything about VPF, but at least they have well defined rules, and the majority of the time those rules are followed. VPF isn’t perfect, but none of us are, and none of the other sites are perfect, but I think we all do a fairly good job, and we do try to cooperate and get along with one another the best we can. Even shiva’s comments at VPF, while not always supportive, and made with good intentions, I believe. Gottlieb’s comments were meant to “divide and conquer”, rather than help improve VPF.

Of course everyone should make their own decision about VPU and not simply take my opinion as the final word. My gripe isn’t with anyone other than Gottlieb, and only concerning his interjection of his personal viewpoints which have not one thing to do with pinball. The lock issue, to me, is not even an issue. Gottlieb had shared any number of excellent tables to the community, and that is a plus. It’s just a shame he feels a need to convert us all to his world view.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Gottlieb is a troublemaker that calls other people troublemakers to try and draw attention away from the fact that he is the prime troublemaker in the VP world. He is the Anti-VP. He pretends to be a righteous dude, but in fact like most zealots he's more about pushing his beliefs, not allowing others to form their own (regardless of what the subject is). When others disagree, he wants them banned. If he can't get them banned, he flames them and calls them troublemakers, which is ironic since his flaming is part of the problem. He then gets his little worshippers to log in under new names and throw even more mud. When anyone bothers to respond with a well thought out logical argument, he replies by saying he didn't read the reply at all, but he's sure it's full of crap and then proceeds to flame some more (a lot like Rob's recent methods, actually).

He runs his little chat board and snubs everyone that doesn't agree with his point of view and bans anyone he thinks is being rude (i.e. anyone that tells him he's full of it). He then has the gall to say he runs a fair ship. He should start by banning himself. That would clean up the whole place faster than anything else. :twisted:
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Site Supporters
Gottlieb is a cancer and it upsets me that this dude has spoiled my favorite pin manufacturer's name..

I was going to try and not reply but I believe your remarks are correct, Is this the 1st time I've agreed with both of ya? I'm an idiot a lot of times but Gottlieb is a supreme idiot most of the times, I used to like him a lot..

Once Gottlieb disagrees with your point of view, it's over in his eyes, there is no tolerance for others opinions, I still love his passion for pinball and I disagree with "VP community is about Pinball, and only Pinball", we have a common interest and should be able to offer communication about anything we see fit.

I just found out (via this thread) that there has been a lot of changes to the staff at VPF, I don't have time to visit and read posts at VPF but I sadly realized Gottlieb offers, didly squat..

About VP Underground, It's a fine name, I visited ONCE and won't be back, these seem to be the same folks that I used to chat with, Gottlieb decided I don't belong and I agree.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
JonPurpleHaze said:
Gottlieb is a cancer and it upsets me that this dude has spoiled my favorite pin manufacturer's name..

I was going to try and not reply but I believe your remarks are correct, Is this the 1st time I've agreed with both of ya? I'm an idiot a lot of times but Gottlieb is a supreme idiot most of the times, I used to like him a lot..

Once Gottlieb disagrees with your point of view, it's over in his eyes, there is no tolerance for others opinions, I still love his passion for pinball and I disagree with "VP community is about Pinball, and only Pinball", we have a common interest and should be able to offer communication about anything we see fit.

I just found out (via this thread) that there has been a lot of changes to the staff at VPF, I don't have time to visit and read posts at VPF but I sadly realized Gottlieb offers, didly squat..

About VP Underground, It's a fine name, I visited ONCE and won't be back, these seem to be the same folks that I used to chat with, Gottlieb decided I don't belong and I agree.

It is scary when both the Dude and I make sense back to back, I guess, :p but you are right that Gottlieb is a cancer. My comment that VP community is about Pinball, and only Pinball wasn't meant to imply that nothing else shouldn't be discussed, but rather that the main focus isn't about Gottlieb's narrow and distorted views.

For someone who used an image of Christ as his avatar for quite a while, he sure seems to act the opposite of Christ's example. What saddens me the most is that VPU has churned up the stupid lock issue as a rallying point, when no one really cares. I think a lot of folks are like me, the only reason I dislike locks is that I like to change the ball images and make 3 ball games into 5 ball games.

I hope VPU is successful, than maybe Gottlieb will be content to stay there and not spread his poisioned BS elsewhere.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
It seems Gottlieb and friends are planning an all out propoganda war against VPF. They've got their trolls coming over under new names and trying to cause trouble, obnoxious avatars and seem to want to push the VPF staff so they have to ban them so they can then gloat over at VPU about how unfair and one sided VPF now is, even though their sole purpose is to cause trouble. It's ironic since this is the same batch of people that pushed for the original bans at VPF and claimed we (the ones banned before) were the troublemakers when it's plainly clear they are the ONLY ones raising a stink at VPF and their agenda (in light of VPU) is becoming pretty darn clear, IMO.

Typical right-wing BS, IMO. If you can't win an election fair and square, trash the other side and try to change the rules so you have an advantage. It seems the pinball community really is a microcosm of the real world.
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
I tried to register at vpu just for reading and information on what is going on there, but without any chance to post there.

The procedure was sort of weird. I don't remember exactly, but I thought I need acceptance by one of the staff before I become member. Got some ( automatic ? ) e-mails, then I could login. But I didn't have any possibility to post there. What's that? I logged in a few times on following days, but there was no change. Couldn't post. I don't think I'm troublemaking and I didn't understand that behavior. As I've new seen posts of others, I assumed they don't want me as member and I didn't go there anymore. Would it work now to post? I don't know. Maybe I can't or want to give them enough support on things they want? Seems it's time to sign off there?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I visited VPU twice, out of curiousity, and was suprised not only by who was there, but who wasn't. Greywolf was there, and has been defending Gottlieb's groupies, and I thought he had enough sense to see through their BS. But the absence of the "goddly" kid c was really a surprise. He seems like a natural for over there, since they all seem to think their stuff not only diesn't stink, but smells like roses.

The shame of this is that there are a few otherwise decent folks over there who will now consider me the enemy because I spoke out against their club house. The powers that be had better not criss the queen bee, or she just might wipe VPU out, like she did to a private forum I had founded at Digital Playfield 3 years ago.

You're right about one thing, Dude, they don't play by any rules, and they are two-faced hypocrites.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I think KC is too paranoid to post his tables publicly at this point period. VPU isn't "underground" enough for him, IMO. He seems to like the e-mail method to a trusted list or something from what I've heard. That wouldn't keep him off the message board, though.

I didn't see much there at all. I saw some table releases by Des Angel for VPM and non-VPMs by Gottlieb and Kinsey and maybe one other person. That was about it. I saw The Man From Post politely asked them to give the new VPF staff a chance and not bash them and Gottlieb's reply was basically why should they; they don't like the new VPF staff any better than the ones that just left. Apparently, they only liked the old staff that was ban-happy (i.e. Kinsey, KC, BJ, et al)

Regardless, I'm finding it weird there's getting to be as many forums as there are active authors, almost. How many forums do you need for a handful of table authors anyway? Everyone else just posts their opinions, but I guess if you find too many people don't like your opinion, you form a new message board and kick out the ones you don't like. It seems kind of ridiculous to me. I can see this place specializing in flipperless games and one for originals to host games, etc. since AJ only provides space for VPM tables, but forums just for forums sake just takes up too much time regardless and I waste enough time reading VPF as it is.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I stopped by Shivasite and saw this:

Sorry, shivaSite is offline. Thank you for 8 wonderful years

So is that supposed to be it, all the sudden like that with no warning? I thought they said they had enough donations to last awhile or do you think it was some other reason?
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Pacdude said:
I think KC is too paranoid to post his tables publicly at this point period. VPU isn't "underground" enough for him, IMO. He seems to like the e-mail method to a trusted list or something from what I've heard. That wouldn't keep him off the message board, though.

I didn't see much there at all. I saw some table releases by Des Angel for VPM and non-VPMs by Gottlieb and Kinsey and maybe one other person. That was about it. I saw The Man From Post politely asked them to give the new VPF staff a chance and not bash them and Gottlieb's reply was basically why should they; they don't like the new VPF staff any better than the ones that just left. Apparently, they only liked the old staff that was ban-happy (i.e. Kinsey, KC, BJ, et al)

Regardless, I'm finding it weird there's getting to be as many forums as there are active authors, almost. How many forums do you need for a handful of table authors anyway? Everyone else just posts their opinions, but I guess if you find too many people don't like your opinion, you form a new message board and kick out the ones you don't like. It seems kind of ridiculous to me. I can see this place specializing in flipperless games and one for originals to host games, etc. since AJ only provides space for VPM tables, but forums just for forums sake just takes up too much time regardless and I waste enough time reading VPF as it is.

I have to agree that a forum without a well definfed purpose isn't of much interest to me. But maybe if they have their own forum they'll stay there bashing us all, and leave the other forums alone. As for the closing of shivaSite, I'll start a new thread.

John
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Since VPU claims to be the Attitude Free forum, I though I'd check them out a little, to see if my opinion had any merit. What I found was that Gottleb had hijacked three threads from my "tiltjlp spouts off" section, and then blasted me for voicing my opinion on my own site.

I posted there, pointing out that I'm entitled to my opinion, and inviting him to post his rebuttal over here. I didn't flame or bad mouth him at all. So I checked back later, and he had deleted the thread I had posted in, and had started a new thread labled No Spam Allowed. I once again posted there, pointing out that it couldn't be SPAM since he had copied them from here. I again invited him to post his response here.

Instead he deleted my post, saying that Flames were not allowed. I'd like to know how inviting him to post here is a flame? And since he copied the threads from here, how can they be Spam. Sure seems to me like Gottlieb does have an attutude problem. But I guess rather than post his opinions here, he'd rather play the role of the misunderstood victim.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
John,

Gottlieb just proves again and again that he is the problem, not the solution. He can't tolerate anyone that disagrees with him and that just shows how full of it he is about being fair or unbiased or that VPU welcomes everyone. He'll talk shit about other people on his site and in his chat room, but if you do the same or even defend your views there, he will delete it and/or kick you out saying you are a troublemaker. I say if VPU helps keep people like that off VPF then that is its primary usefulness, IMO. The simple truth is he made VPU because he can't stand that VPF now allows everyone to give their opinion not just those that agree with him. Freedom of speech doesn't mean shit to people like him. In his view, everyone is NOT created equal and some deserve to speak (himself of course) while others do not (everyone that disagrees with him).

People like him are why America is quickly going down the proverbial toilet. They have no tolerance for anyone unlike themselves and so seek to force those unlike them to conform one way or the other. But then that seems to be a worldwide problem. The common stance seems to be if you don't agree with my religion or my country's politics then you will be jailed, executed, etc. etc. It just amazes me after thousands of years how little mankind has advanced spiritually. I'm surprised we haven't nuked ourselves into oblivion yet given some of the leaders' lack of judgment and tolerance in this world. But we seem to do well enough murdering each other with conventional weapons and wrongfully imprisoning others for simply disagreeing with "our" views of the world ("our" referring to any group of humans that acts like that and refuses to tolerate diversity of thought and belief). Sure that sounds like an extreme comparison to at chat room, but the CORE cause is the same (intolerance and pride).

Look at the way they treat women in much Eastern world. If you don't have a winky between your legs you are not a real person and have no rights. How arbitrary and ridiculous can a human being get than that? Yet it's commonplace in many societies. Spiritually, we are like little spoiled children that never learned to share and think the Universe revolves around us. God is love and love is selfless, but we are the opposite. We are selfish and hateful of others. No wonder we are sentenced to death in this world.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Interesting and thoughtful post Dude. Doesn't have much to do with forum politics, but fairly accurate world view. And only 3 paragraphs, :p wow.

John
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I've been checking out VPU every night, mostly to annoy Gottlieb, but also kust out of curiousity. Below in Gottlieb's own words is the reason he started VPU. I've heard of double talk, this might be the world's first case of triple talk. At leat it's good for a laugh.

In case you were wondering, VPU is a forum for discussing Visual Pinball, pinball sims, and pinball in general. So what makes us different than say VPF or Pinball Nirvana or the now defunct Shiva Site? Our attitude, or shall we say the lack thereof. Most of us here at VPU were once Admins, Moderators, or Supporters of VPF because we wanted to make a difference and contribute something to the VP community, but because of a total lack of support by the owner of the forum and hostility from a handful of individuals who wanted to make it their personal playground, we left and started VPU. It's very easy to get sucked into flame wars. When you see a friend being kicked around you naturally want to step in and defend them and in turn you end up getting kicked around and have your name and reputation dragged through the dirt. Nobody wins in a flame war except the people who start it. They get the satisfaction of seeing others tear at each other's throats. And when you have a staff of moderators who refuse to or are unable to do their job because their own rediculous guidelines prevent them from ever taking action, well, things just never get any better. And so rather than living with things the way they are and sitting around complaining we got off our collective asses and started VPU. None of that crap is allowed here. Anyone who starts or participates in a flame war, including the staff, including me, can expect to have their posts modified or removed.

VPU isn't about individuals, it isn't about you, or me, its not about egos or back patting or criticising people. It's about VP and pinball. It's about pinball discussions and the future of pinball and pinball sims. The admins and moderators here have the right of all things to do their job and make sure everyone has a pleasant experience. If you're tired of the argueing and flame baiting then this is the place for you. Yeah, we're not as big as VPF and we have no intentions of being. But we do intend to be better than VPF and we will strive every day to live up to that goal. I hope you enjoy your visit and come back again.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Site Supporters
I just had to post at VPunderground because I was informed that they are stealing bandwidth from IRP via the Table search function, they are direct linking to files at AJ's as well but perhaps he doesn't mind and/or they received permission. They should know better but this was my post in case it gets deleted.

I was unable to reply to the announcement for the Table Search Function thread..

I really like the idea and I'll try to not annoy you folks but, direct linking to files at IRP is BAD!

As you know, IRPinball is paid for by sponsors and ztnet, Kindly remove files at IRP from the searchs, It is ok to link to the home page:
http://irpinball.ztnet.com

These are the links that are bandwidth stealers:
javascript:getIt2('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameofscreenshot.jpg')
javascript:getIt('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameoftable.zip')

Thanks, in advance :)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Jon, they might also be doing the same thing to us then. They are linked that way to starman's Yukon table here. And from their reply to your post it sounds as if they have no intention of changing the links.

John
 

Greywolf

Perfectionist Bastard
tiltjlp said:
I visited VPU twice, out of curiousity, and was suprised not only by who was there, but who wasn't. Greywolf was there, and has been defending Gottlieb's groupies, and I thought he had enough sense to see through their BS.

John, I guess I don't have the problems that you seem to with them. I have my own take on things, and I keep mostly to myself.

Maybe I have learned to defend the wrong people. I'm sure my Lady would think so.

Maybe I am just tired of playing the BS game myself. I'm saddened to see the conflicts, and I try not to be terribly partisan. I didn't see what you'd posted, though I wish I had -- it would have given me a chance to speak on it here.

I don't have any status at VPU save that of a chatroom moderator, a position I take with some honour but hope I never have to use to the ends of bummerdom.

at VPU/VPGD chat, I am just glad to have people with whom to converse, but mostly over pinball (I do have my own diatribes...)

And right now, crap is on the fan for me in a big way related to neither here nor there, so please forgive me if I seem a bit vague or ambiguous.

Could someone explain this "stealing the bandwidth" thing? How are they stealing the bandwidth? Whether they link directly or they simply have a link pointing to IRP's main site (through which one uses bandwidth to grab the files), the bandwidth gets used anyway, so pardon me if I'm a little confused.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Site Supporters
Greywolf,

Read the thread:
http://www.vpgd.net/smf/index.php?topic=60.0

ztnet (therefore, IRP), depends on pop-ups and ads to survive, if people d/l files without visiting the sites pages they don't see them. I'm getting frustrated and hope you can talk some sense into them.

From ztnet:

Off-network linking to images and downloads is not permitted.

Other sites are encouraged to link to the main page,
rather than the downloads themselves. Please contact
the webmaster of the site which provided this
link so they may correct the error.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I've never had any problens with you Wolf, and don't now. I was just a bit surprised to see you there. I sure didn't think any of my posts there were a problem, but I guess since I have taken issue with them here, they'd rather I didn't post there, which is their right of course. One of my posts simply said that since they pointed to three of my opinion posts here, I couldn't see how they could call them spam. I also invited Gottlieb to post any rebuttal he wanted here.

My biggest gripe with Gottlieb concerns his What's Wrong With VPF thread, which wasm IMO, meant to cause problems at VPF without offering any siggestions to improve VPF. Every time I've found fault with VPF, I was trying, as I saw it, to help improve VPF. I do feel from past experiences that Gottlieb really doesn't care to hear any viewpoints which differ from his own.

At some point I hope to be able to post a totally friendly post there agreeing with one of his posts, just to see if it also is deleted. If that is going to be the case why doesn't he simply ban me and get it over with? As my first post in this thread stated, everyone should make their own mind ip about VPO. As far as the direct link thing, I don't know that much about the Internet to know why it's frowned upon, but I have noticed that a lot of sites don't like it.

John
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
Site Supporters
I feared the above topic link would change and it has, they just deleted a bunch of my posts and locked the topic...
http://www.vpgd.net/smf/index.php?topic=60.0

This is what it looked less than a half hour ago: (edit, here are links to the edited threads that are easier to read)
Easier to read VPU edited topic:
http://irpinball.org/vpu_old_topic.htm
http://irpinball.org/vpu_edited_topic.htm


VP Underground
The Underground => Background Noise => Topic started by: JonPurpleHaze on August 23, 2005, 12:49:59 PM

Title: Table Search Problems...
Post by: JonPurpleHaze on August 23, 2005, 12:49:59 PM
I was unable to reply to the announcement for the Table Search Function thread..

I really like the idea and I'll try to not annoy you folks but, direct linking to files at IRP is BAD!

As you know, IRPinball is paid for by sponsors and ztnet, Kindly remove files at IRP from the searchs, It is ok to link to the home page:
http://irpinball.ztnet.com

These are the links that are bandwidth stealers:
javascript:getIt2('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameofscreenshot.jpg')
javascript:getIt('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameoftable.zip')

Thanks, in advance :)


Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Gottlieb on August 23, 2005, 01:52:19 PM
Does anyone actually believe that people who visit IRP ever see any of the ads? Surely everyone by now is using one kind of popup blocker or another. It's built in to all new browsers. Sites that are paid for with popup ads are a losing proposition. IRP costs the web hosting company far more than it generates in sales revenue. The kind people who are providing web hosting services to IRP are well aware of this. I know. I used to be a member of IRP and I for a time hosted IRP and owned the IRP domain when they had no home. Everyone in the VP scene, including newbies, know all about IRP. They know where to get the tables. All I am providing here is a comprehensive list of all tables known in existence.

By definition if I were stealing bandwidth somewhere on the site there would be an image tag or an ActiveX control or an iFrame with a src pointing to a file on another server, so that by simply viewing the page content would be downloaded from that server and not ours. That is simply not the case. All we are providing are links that are publicly displayed on other sites. They are not concealed, they are not encrypted, they do not require a login to access them. You can cut and paste those links into any browser and go straight to the files. I am not forcing anyone to automatically download the content, nor am I forcing anyone to click on the links. Once they click on the link and go to your site what happens is between you and them. If you don't want them downloading the files its up to you to do something about it. I have no control over what happens when a person clicks through to another site.

Now I am not unsympathetic to your plight. I am willing as a compromise to add scripting that will check for popup blockers, if at all possible. If a person has a blocker turned on then its of little consequence who's paying for their bandwidth because obviously they are not. Whoever has popup blockers turned on I will allow to pass through. If they don't have a blocker then I will send them to a page where they can enjoy the wonderful popups on your site. And so the net effect will be zero. No potential revenue lost. Sounds reasonable to me.

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Kinsey on August 23, 2005, 01:57:20 PM
A simple htaccess script would allow them to block "bandwidth stealers". Shiva used one. It must not really be a problem or that would be in place.

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Gottlieb on August 23, 2005, 02:24:07 PM
I would think that finding a way to prevent popup blocking, such as using banner ads or placement ads, to generate more revenue would be higher on the list than worrying about a site with maybe a dozen members using up a tiny fraction of their bandwidth. Since most people who download from IRP will never actually see or purchase anything from their sponsors I guess you could say everyone is stealing their bandwidth, since they're not paying for anything.

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: JonPurpleHaze on August 23, 2005, 05:23:14 PM
Your responses don't make any sense, IRP was warned about bandwidth usage previously and your direct linking is not going to help, pop-up blocking etc.. is of zero concern to this site.
Quote:
All I am providing here is a comprehensive list of all tables in existence.

No, you are stealing bandwidth and direct linking to files...

Try using Opera (or click on the quoted direct link, below) and notice the error messages to your direct file links @ IRP, (it seems to me that the "javascript:getIt2" is enabling some of the direct links), here is the message:
Quote:
<H1>ERROR</H1>
<H2>The requested URL could not be retrieved</H2>
<HR noshade size="1px">
<P>
While trying to retrieve the URL:
http://irpinball.ztnet.com/tables/blackjack10.zip
<P>
The following error was encountered:
<UL>
<LI>
<STRONG>
Off-network linking to images and downloads is not permitted.
</STRONG>
<P>
Other sites are encouraged to link to the main page,
rather than the downloads themselves. Please contact
the webmaster of the site which provided this
link so they may correct the error.


Please stop!
Thanks, in advance..
Jon

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Gottlieb on August 23, 2005, 05:42:26 PM
Then obviously you have a bad browser and you should be thankful it is preventing you from linking to a page you don't want to go to. Thank you for your concern.

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Kinsey on August 23, 2005, 06:00:54 PM
Since the object is not being queried and served on the page in question, it's not bandwidth stealing. Stealing bandwidth would be putting it inline and generating a hit on the file without a click-thru. If the click-thru link bypasses the deep-linked page/file, that is the fault of the server that is hosting it, not the site which is linking it.

Again, this is easily corrected with a proper htaccess configuration.

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: JonPurpleHaze on August 23, 2005, 06:05:29 PM
Off-network linking to images and downloads is not permitted.

Other sites are encouraged to link to the main page,
rather than the downloads themselves. Please contact
the webmaster of the site which provided this
link so they may correct the error.



Please stop...? What don't you understand about this error message from ztnet?"

This is what it looks like now, but that will probably change:

"VP Underground
The Underground => Background Noise => Topic started by: JonPurpleHaze on August 23, 2005, 12:49:59 PM

Title: Table Search Problems...
Post by: JonPurpleHaze on August 23, 2005, 12:49:59 PM
I was unable to reply to the announcement for the Table Search Function thread..

I really like the idea and I'll try to not annoy you folks but, direct linking to files at IRP is BAD!

As you know, IRPinball is paid for by sponsors and ztnet, Kindly remove files at IRP from the searchs, It is ok to link to the home page:
http://irpinball.ztnet.com

These are the links that are bandwidth stealers:
javascript:getIt2('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameofscreenshot.jpg')
javascript:getIt('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameoftable.zip')

Thanks, in advance :)


Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Gottlieb on August 23, 2005, 01:52:19 PM
By definition bandwidth theft involves the use of inline linking to content on another server, such as through image tags, ActiveX objects or framing, so that simply viewing the web page causes content to be served from another site. That is simply not the case here. All we are providing are links that are publicly displayed on other sites. They are not concealed, they are not encrypted, they do not require a login to access them, they are not the copyright of the website owner, and therefore no theft is involved. The term you are looking for is "deep linking" whereby a website provides links to content inside a website and not the main page. In numerous court cases in the United States and in Europe the courts have determined that deep linking is not a violation of copyright laws nor is it an infringement of any kind.
Quote:
"Deep linking," the practice of websites linking to articles "inside" other websites, is for the most part an accepted practice now. While a few news publishers have challenged the practice in the past -- wanting online users to visit their homepages rather than inside webpages first, and trying to use the courts to mandate that -- the courts have pretty much scotched those challenges. Deep linking is OK. - Steve Outing

Quote:
"Hyperlinking does not itself involve a violation of the Copyright Act," U.S. District Judge Harry Hupp said in that ruling, which pitted Tickets.com against Ticketmaster. "There is no deception in what is happening. This is analogous to using a library's card index to get reference to particular items, albeit faster and more efficiently."


Now since we are not stealing bandwidth from anyone I consider this issue closed.

Title: Re: Table Search Problems...
Post by: Kinsey on August 23, 2005, 06:00:54 PM
Since the object is not being queried and served on the page in question, it's not bandwidth stealing. Stealing bandwidth would be putting it inline and generating a hit on the file without a click-thru. If the click-thru link bypasses the deep-linked page/file, that is the fault of the server that is hosting it, not the site which is linking it.

Again, this is easily corrected with a proper htaccess configuration."


My response since the thread is locked?
I know about .htaccess files, you are suggesting that I try to disable all of your improper direct links:
javascript:getIt2('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameofscreenshot.jpg')
javascript:getIt('http://irpinball.ztnet.com/directoryname/nameoftable.zip')
Why don't you remove them, you put them there and they are not permitted, I'll quote ztnet's page again:

Off-network linking to images and downloads is not permitted.


Other sites are encouraged to link to the main page,
rather than the downloads themselves. Please contact
the webmaster of the site which provided this
link so they may correct the error.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Thanks for the information. If I still have Gottlieb's e-address, I think I'll send it to him, with a note wishing him luck with him site, just to see his reaction.

John
 
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