What policy for the tables?

[Paolo]

So just to be clear......what politics do I use for myself, regarding tables?
I have always asked permission from an author, before making a table from VPX to FP,or whatever it is...... someone didn't give it to me, someone else did, like the great master @jpsalas ,and some other guys from VPforum.

So my policy is always to have respect for an author!!!

Now it all started with this author, a certain @javier1515.....take my version and replicate it in vpx, without asking me for permission!!

The Virtual Pinball Forums

Page 1 of 2 - Goldrake VPX Edition[Visual Pinball X Original] - posted in VP Originals - New Releases: File Name: Goldrake VPX EditionFile Submitter: javier1515File Submitted: 25 Sep 2017File Category: VPX OriginalsAuthor(s): JavierRomWildPermission to MOD?: Yes, without approvalGoldorak Table...

www.vpforums.org

Is not finished yet, now this vpx version of javier 1515, (which is always mine of FP, DON'T FORGET IT) is also used for other users and programs, which I did not understand, here the video

I think it is linked to "VPE" which is discussed here .......

WIP: Visual Pinball in Unity (2021 Edition)

vpuniverse.com

and here I also expressed my thoughts, @freezy ,I don't know if it's the same one registered here,is the one who answered me

The moral of the story is: acting like this without asking permission, and having no respect for the work done by others, taking tables and doing what a person wants with them .... like the fake site "VPD" THAT STEALS THE TABLES well this is a valid reason that kills the desire that an author has,
and as far as I'm concerned, this is a valid reason not to publish my future tables!

regards

 

[AnonTet]

I won't disagree with you on others profiting on free stuff and I actually feel sorry for those who fell prey to scammers.

But... Look at music. How many great hits were just remasters of old music no one even remembers the original versions or authors?

Authors need to think if they're prepared to accept the above or not so authors need to ask themselves some questions I suppose and decide. But remember that even authors that sell their work can only still hope people would buy an original copy. The moment it is released that's all that's left; hope people do the right thing (hint: they wont :) )

I really hope authors won't flee although it is a very real possibility but it is the world we live in.

Regarding you in particular @Paolo I hope you stay with us, keep having fun creating tables even if you keep them to yourself. But I would also like to ask to release the tables one day because it would be a real waste of talent thrown out the window and that would be even worse.

 

[TerryRed]

wild...

You are upset at the wrong guys.

Rowlan simply imported the VPX version into what they had working for VPE at the time. It's not even a working table in that video. It just a big model of the table (similar to importing a FP table to Blender). It was used as a demo of what is possible, and I imagine it was used because the table looks so good. He probably had no idea about the VPX version coming from your modded version. So your anger at him is misplaced.

freezy is creating VPE. He was simply showing off the video Rowlan made. Again, he didn't know the history of the table.

Honestly if it were me, and I saw a demo like that (in VPE) of a table I made... I would be like WOW that looks amazing! That's just me.

You shouldn't be upset with either of these guys. They saw it as a table made by ROM, converted by Javier. As you said... it was Javier that converted it to VPX (without asking you or crediting you). Not everyone will know the full history of a table, and they certainly are the last guys who would want to disrespect an author.

I do understand your frustration at your name not being mentioned or included in Javier's VPX conversion and the other VPX mods coming from that. You asked politely long ago that Javier change the name and include you in the credits, so I certainly understand why you are upset about that.

Sometimes authors leave this hobby and never return, and never answer messages. I tried to contact ROM for over 1 year to ask if I could mod MOTU (the Mastered version). I never received a response. So at what point does one keep waiting.... 2 years, 5 years? (Also, GoPinball is now gone... so there may be no way to contact them). So I eventually posted the mod, and made it clear it was my mod of Rom's table. It wasn't until 1 year later that Rom saw my mod of his table on my Youtube channel, and said he loved what he saw and was amazed people still play his tables. So my posting my mod (without waiting for a response after one year) was the only way I was able to get contacted by Rom... and now I know I can mod his tables as a result.

freezy and Rowlan are good guys wild.

They are NOT the same as sites like VPD. That site is simply "one" guy who the virtual pinball community does not support. Don't let the actions of that one guy stop you from doing what you enjoy.

One thing to consider.... if you are fine with your work being converted to VPX or VPE... and all you want is your name to be included in the credits.... maybe include that disclaimer on your downloads: "free to mod or convert to VP / VPE as long as my name is included in the credits for the conversion".

 

[freezy]

@Paolo I'm sorry that you didn't get properly credited in the VPX port.

VPE is a new digital pinball platform based on Visual Pinball. It's completely free and open source, and it's based on the Unity game engine. While it's still very work in progress and not really usable, people still from time to time like to play around with it and import existing tables (you can import .vpx files). Coming from the VP community, most of us don't know the FP history of tables that have been ported. What Rowlan did was take a table he liked, put it into VPE to make a demo video of how cool it looks. That's it. He probably didn't even know that it was an FP port. His goal was to show off the engine, not "steal" your table.

 

[Paolo]

You are upset at the wrong guys.

look you you're taking a crab!!
where do you see, that i'm mad at these guys that you say?i said i'm mad at javier 1515, not them
if you don't understand what I wrote, please tell me before saying these things

I saw this video, which for me is a table made I don't know how, of my version, and I just asked what it was, and this freezy guy, he replied
my debate was friendly, explaining the difference between the rom versions and mine, but then he said this sentence to me, Please take your beef elsewhere then, and then I started to warm up ..... I just pointed out that javier 1515 made a vxp table with my version without permission, which is now used for other programs, I don't like this one

but anyway I am not angry with them, mind you

 

[freezy]

"Take your beef elsewhere" means "Be upset with those guys elsewhere". Not sure how you interpreted that, given your reaction.

 

[Paolo]

I'm sorry that you didn't get properly credited in the VPX port.

and the problem arose from this fact, that this author javier1515, made his version of vpx, using my version of FP.

His goal was to show off the engine, not "steal" your table.

my first question on your thread, was this,


I didn't say Rowlan stole my version.

ok for VPE, and I congratulate you .... I have not accused VPE, but I just wanted to point out that I see my version used (perhaps in other programs) and you (all) are only talking about the author of vpx .. .and not who made that version for FP

Not sure how you interpreted that, given your reaction.

no I interpreted it well, you used an unsuitable word.....please use another word,next time!

anyway I repeat, I have nothing against you, or Rowlan.

 

[freezy]

What, you don't like beef? It tastes deliciously!

 

[TerryRed]

My wife's a vegetarian... it's a struggle sometimes :)

@Paolo

Sorry for assuming you were upset at Rowlan himself (or freezy)... as I took it you were upset at whoever converted it for VPE to show it off.... but as you clarified... you were upset at Javier for not asking you or crediting you, etc.

 

[TerryRed]

I won't disagree with you on others profiting on free stuff and I actually feel sorry for those who fell prey to scammers.

But... Look at music. How many great hits were just remasters of old music no one even remembers the original versions or authors?

Authors need to think if they're prepared to accept the above or not so authors need to ask themselves some questions I suppose and decide. But remember that even authors that sell their work can only still hope people would buy an original copy. The moment it is released that's all that's left; hope people do the right thing (hint: they wont :) )

I personally feel that no matter what we do, anything we post / share will get posted elsewhere, and trying to stop that from happening will just make you unhappy.

I know my stuff gets posted at other places without me knowing or being asked. I decided it shouldn't matter or bother me, as it doesn't affect me doing what I enjoy doing. The places I post them, has all the people I know will enjoy and respect the work I did. They can respond or give feedback, etc. I mostly care about being able to give support for them, or to make corrections for bugs, etc.

Yes, there are always scammers out there. It's been happening since cassette tape were created. We do this for fun... but it still will happen no matter what we do. You just have to decide if it's enough to bother you to stop doing what you enjoy.

I know once I stopped caring about it... I became much happier, and my recent work has been a result of that.

Not everyone can feel the same way about it.. and that's ok. I just wanted to share how I felt about it for myself.

 

[Paolo]

What, you don't like beef? It tastes deliciously!

That cooked grill yes ..... but that used for turns of words, no!

Sorry for assuming you were upset at Rowlan himself (or freezy)...

No problem,you are a companion and I respect you.

 

[AnonTet]

What we need is VPE!

Unity and vr work great. Now imagine vr, network connectivity and we doing virtual tournaments... i'll wake up in a few minutes :D

 

[NitroNimbus]

@Paolo
Sorry mate I have to 100% agree with @TerryRed.
I know this is your table and this is why I never posted a MOD2.0 version.
Table authors should always be credit for there work, without exception!
But unless you have been following this hobby for 10 years, know one knows who's who or who is still active.

I would be so happy if my table was a show piece in such a presentation.
Do I like or play any FP to VPX conversions tables, no!!
The FP to VPX conversions, I think they are awful tables. (personal preference).
I could not imagine how much time and effort would be involved in converting a FP table to VPX.
But if someone has taken the time and effort to transpose your table and then it has been use as a go to example for VPE.
I would consider that winning my friend, cheers!

 

[Paolo]

Sorry mate I have to 100% agree with @TerryRed.

and I accept it, in a way I also agree with what Terry says and you, if an author is not active, or not completely around, waiting years for an answer would be idiotic!

but if an author is still around, like me, it would be polite and respectable people to ask for permission ..... i mean the guy from vpx, who took my version from here,



didn't see that there are two authors ? he did not see what is written there "MOD UNAUTHORIZED WITHOUT EXPLICIT PERMISSION FROM THE AUTHOR "?

so what did, didn't care, and did his version of vpx.

But if someone has taken the time and effort to transpose your table and then it has been use as a go to example for VPE.
I would consider that winning my friend, cheers!

in fact my first question on the vpu thread, was a simple question of curiosity, mentioning only that what I saw on that video is my version
and I wanted to know more, but not to create problems, but just to understand what it was, I had exchanged that video with a real table, and I also say this on my comment, you have to above


freezy's answer that is,


this was off topic for me, because he replied by saying that the guy from vpx javier was the author, and here then I just answered very calmly, instead I was misunderstood, and mistaken for one who he wanted to accuse vpe

I then only explained that that was my version, but I was continually misunderstood, to the point that he told me not to post on the thread anymore, and I could not know what that video was ..... I was misunderstood as if I was angry with them, which I never said or made to think

 

[freezy]

Nobody accused you of accusing VPE. You were being annoying by bringing your quarrel with Javier into a thread with 70+ subscribers that had nothing to do with the topic. That was the only reason for everyone being hostile.

 

[Paolo]

no,no!!! I didn't bring the discussion with javier into your thread, I just asked a question what that video was about, it was you who named javier first.....and I only answered you politely....I just kept answering your questions, always off topic, of what was my first question, and what did you understand ?

 

[Paolo]

Nobody accused you of accusing VPE.

really??? and this your answer, how should I interpret it? tell me....


anyway, that's enough, I'm tired, I just wanted to know what that video was ..... that's enough, that's enough and again enough!

 

[freezy]

"Your beef with Javier"

It's a metaphor. An idiom. I don't know what meaning it has when you literally translate it into Italian. But I wasn't talking about cows. It means please go ranting about people not respecting your work elsewhere, because it has nothing to do with the topic you're posting in.

 

[NitroNimbus]

@Paolo,
"MOD UNAUTHORIZED WITHOUT EXPLICIT PERMISSION FROM THE AUTHORS"
This is just a statement with no merit, you and others have added to a free table you all decided
to share with the world, it has no meaning or value!
This table was also posted almost 7 years ago?

I have read everything posted here and there.
@freezy or anyone else has done nothing wrong in either forum that I can see.
Maybe you are pointing your guns in the wrong direction, cheers!

 

[freezy]

Oh, and you could also have just read through the thread, then maybe you wouldn't have to had to ask the question in the first place, because it would have been clear to you what the video was about.

 

[Paolo]

Oh,and in your opinion, I had to do the hardest thing?and don't YOU answer my question.....that you among other things you answered off topic.
I understand that you are the leader of that thread, and everyone is on your side ... and that as soon as you/all see a poor fellow like me, make a simple question ..... you compare him to one that annoys? really....
what annoys you, is the fly under your nose, certainly not me!

I repeat I asked you a simple question, which by the way I had mistaken for a real table, I had absolutely not thought that it was Javier's version of vpx, and I had no intention of discussing of this "javier" in your thread,but just understand what that video was.

And again...it was YOU, who put this javier into play, not me ...... and then I only answered your questions(about javier) always politely,....where you /all see that I... started, did he talk about javer? I repeat again I have only answered your questions ..... it was you who thought that I wanted to create problems, this is only your problem.

now, please, this is a thread that I have opened, so I kindly ask you not to reply!
as you told me in your thread...Please stop posting in this thread.

I'm not going to continue this stupid discussion with you any more!

 

[AnonTet]

I would've personally waited 8 more days and made it a 1 year grave digging post :D

 

[xenonph]

Well, let's just be straight here. Either you know it's wrong or you know it's right. Either you do it or you don't do it.

Yes, thieves profit from piracy constant and we all know it's wrong (only idiots would debate that). Idiots like THIS (below) are the "reason" piracy is so despised, only fools argue that.

For example: (EDIT: LINK REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR)

Debating the defense of either side, THAT is what is pointless and a waste of material. If you don't believe in it, don't do it. But sitting around protesting it is just stupid, piracy is an animal that's been around since the 80s (in full swing of software) and i was there so i know. To debate it is just idiotic, it will just ignore you and keep going.

nuff said?

Your first post here, is to post a link to tables being sold?
I removed your link. Please do not post any links to hard drives being sold with community content included in them.

 

[AnonTet]

So that's what it was. I would've reported it (i did find the post weird but I always give the benefit of the doubt the 1st time.
Knowing this now, under my administration would've been a direct hammer...

 

[xenonph]

I removed his link and asked him not to leave anymore links to drives being sold with community content included on drives.
He then said that I was anal and an idiot. I then Spam Cleaned his account.

He is in violation on the terms and conditions for the distribution of VP, FP and it's derivative works, which are not to be bought or sold.
The link he posted is to the Retroplay guys hardrives filled with community content for sale.

There is no need to leave a link, to get point across.
That would be like being against illegal gun sales, but leaving a link to the nearest illegal gun seller.
No need for the links.