VP9 Nudge Demo and Tester

[bob]

If you're like me, a table nudger, it didn't take long to realize that VP9 has some serious nudging going on. You nudge the table and the Ball moves, but the table stays still. The table definitely needs to move someday, but I think the nudging will stay this way, because VP9 is designed for the Pinball Wizard Control and the UltraCade machine, which has a sensor to nudge the ball further the harder you bump the table. I mean, you are not suppose to be able to nudge the ball and keep it from draining down the middle virtually every time.

This issue was big for me, I either had to find another way to do it or stick with VP8. The following is my way to nudge in VP9 for us desktop players or players without any of Folley's creations.

It's pretty simple really, I changed the angles of the bumps and the speed/strength. This demo will let you test my values and it will allow you to insert new values for the angles by pressing + or - on your keyboard to find one that you might like better. You can also press 9 to default to VP9's settings to test the difference or press 8 to go back to my settings.

I do change the speed/strength of the bump in the script also and you could change that in the script if you wish.

Anyway, give it a try. I'd still like to hear what others think of the nudging in VP9, surely I'm not the only one who likes to nudge and thinks the new setup is assbackwards....

Obviously, you use this demo with VP9.

 

[bob]

Am I the only nudger? :)

Anyway, I don't see how you can adjust the nudge in VPM tables. They don't have the usual Keycode stuff that I'm familiar with in Original or EM tables. I even looked in the core.vbs file and still don't see any values that I could change. Any help or opinions would be appreciated....

 

[StevOz]

These are the sections of code from the core.vbs that control nudging as far as I can tell. Surprised to notice there is some randomness to the nudge, aForce seems to be the deciding value.

    Private Sub Class_Initialize
        mCount = 0 : TiltSwitch = 0 : mSensitivity = 5 : vpmTimer.AddResetObj Me
    End sub

    Public Sub DoNudge(ByVal aDir, ByVal aForce)
        aDir = aDir + (Rnd-0.5)*15*aForce : aForce = (0.6+Rnd*0.8)*aForce
        Nudge aDir, aForce
        If TiltSwitch = 0 Then Exit Sub ' If no switch why care
        mCount = mCount + aForce * 1.2
        If mCount > mSensitivity + 10 Then mCount = mSensitivity + 10
        If mCount >= mSensitivity Then vpmTimer.PulseSw TiltSwitch
        NeedUpdate = True
    End sub

 

[bob]

It appears if I just add the keycode nudge settings to the script, that it must override whatever the presets are for VPM.

 

[SunWizard]

Thanks for the nudge testing Bob, thats a good test table you made. I agree there is something wrong with nudging in VP9, and there is something wrong with the pinball wizard controller and the way it changes table slopes. I made a mod of your nudge table to use as a pinwiz calibration tester, see this thread:
http://vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=723&pid=2784&st=0&#entry2784

 

[Pinball_Ken]

It's not in the core.vbs file, but the file for each type of table eg. wpc.vbs and here's an extract:

   Case keyBangBack     vpmNudge.DoNudge   0,6
   Case LeftTiltKey     vpmNudge.DoNudge  75,3   '2
   Case RightTiltKey    vpmNudge.DoNudge 285,3   '2
   Case CenterTiltKey   vpmNudge.DoNudge   0,2

I've changed the strength of the nudge reaction from 2 to 3 here, in lines two and three; the first part is angle of movement.

PK :)

 

[bob]

Thanks Sun Wizard! I'm glad it was useful. :)

Thanks PK! That's what I was looking for. I'm use to looking for keycodes. :) I see you have adjusted the angles also, at least it gives a more realistic nudge, the default is awful at the present time.

 

[SunWizard]

Those are the angles in my stock wpc.vbs file.

 

[bob]

Those are the angles in my stock wpc.vbs file.

And these are the angles in the New Table that comes with VP9.... I guess I didn't get the memo on the different angles. :)

If keycode = LeftTiltKey Then
Nudge 90, 2
End If

If keycode = RightTiltKey Then
Nudge 270, 2
End If

If keycode = CenterTiltKey Then
Nudge 0, 2
End If

 

[SunWizard]

Those bad VP9 angles are the same ones you get in a VP8.1 new table as well.

 

[tiltjlp]

Just found this Bob, and will check out your demo. But since most of my tables don't have flippers, I assign diagonal nudging to the shift keys. Since all my tables habe nudge scripting, that's way I've never had issues with VP9 in this department.

If keycode = LeftTiltKey Then
Nudge 90, 2
End If

If keycode = RightTiltKey Then
Nudge 270, 2
End If

If keycode = CenterTiltKey Then
Nudge 0, 3
End If

if keycode = LeftFlipperKey then
Nudge 45, 2
End If

If keycode = RightFlipperKey Then
Nudge 315, 2
End If

 

[bob]

I think it's been changed since VP9's first release.

The first release of VP9 was strictly a release of Nanotech's software for their Commercial cabinet. VP9 is still setup for cabinet users, but then VP9 is now open source, so I can't complain about something that I could change if I had the brains to do so..... I'm am only limited by my own limitations.

If you look closely at the nudge in VP9, you will see that only the ball moves. If you add StartShake to the table, the table moves, but the ball is not effected by the moving table objects. It was designed for a commercial cabinet that has a lockbar created to nudge the table, it's all too depressing for me to talk about anymore.

 

[tiltjlp]

That does sound depressing. I'll have to pay more attention next time I play a game.

 

[Shockman]

That's not entirely true, Bob. The part about it should be changed if anyone had the brains to do it is. If I had the brain power to do it, I would too. What is not true is that there is any reason why it has to be. VP8, or was it 7, was the release that first saw Nanotech's alterations to VP and it was no rape of the program, It was a proprietary build. VP8 also saw that build incorporated AS AN OPTION, and you know as well as I do that the VP standard optioned was used far more than the new physics option was. And nudging worked in that version that had both physics options.

VP9 saw what I would consider a rape of the entire VP program, because it dropped the VP standard option and forced everyone to use an option that most people by far, if not near total had absolutely no use for, or had to go to way to many extra and stupid steps to use. Why in the name of sanity would startshake be off as a default for one of a ton of examples when there was absolutely no documentation released with the program. Why in the name of humanity is it still that this niche is driving the development and the program being tailored to make this small niche be the ones to use it without all these extra steps, problems, dead ends, and stupid, stupid bugs when the program is as popular with the mainstream that it is.

I'm sorry, but it is stupid for VP to not have a fairly nice nudge feature when it had it for so long. It's pure stupidity to to have the slope of a VP table taken out of the program in favor of a range that some rare piece of hardware wants. Some person, one in particular argues that the ball is not too big now when it is not only causing problems with older tables, but with new ones as well, and why would it be said in the workshop to increase the scale of the table to oversize IN DIRECT RELATIONSHIP TO THE BALL. The only good argument would address this point, say it was never said, say it was a lie, say I can't read, but it is left out of any argument on the other side. It is there to see, it's not an opinion, it's an observation, The ball is too big now. Acts too big, it is actually the same size. That is my observation, and it is destruc's observation. I think now it is JP's observation. Would he release a table as broken as STTNG in VP<9. No, his VP8 one works very nice. It is my understanding that his cabinet version does work nice, do you see where I'm going here.

The first release of VP9 was strictly a release for cabinets, but the last release of VP9 is little more than a continuation of that direction, and the next releases no doubt will continue in that direction. It will take more that brains to get VP back on track, which is a program for the masses. It will take understanding that that is a good idea, because the admin of VPF said no other build will be posted or even linked to, and VPF is the home base and flagship of this community. VPF is not shooting it's self in the foot, it is shooting the rest of us, which is the virtual all of us, that does not own this hardware, in the heart.

 

[bob]

There's no conspiracy here. VP8 was released by Randy, he tried to incorporate some of Nanotech's improvements into VP, he didn't have the desire to get involved with the software enough to do the job justice. The result was no big deal as we were all more interested in those great Nantech Flippers physics that we heard so much about and I don't think there was a noticable difference in VP8.

Then Nanotech posted their VP version on their website when they began to sell those Pinball Wizard controllers.

Now you could buy a VP Pinball controller for 300 dollars, but you needed their software to make it work. It should have been called NanoVP or something, but when it was picked up by VPF.org and made available to be downloaded, it was called VP9.

So VP9 is a basically a commercial product and it was programmed to run best with the components that they used in their cabinets, which was Windows XP and and Nvidia graphics cards.

Permission is granted to Destruk to work on it and make improvements and try to make it more compatible or whatever, I'm a little clueless, I'd assume he had a contract with Foley and Nanotech to do this. They wanted to sell controllers.

The breakthrough was when Randy gave his permission to make VP Open Source. Anyone can now try to improve VP and submit it to the Dev team or become a part of the Dev team. At one point, I would have liked to see reels and text boxes to be easily moved to a second monitor, if I could do this and submit it to the Dev team, it WOULD be added to VP, but I can't and no one else so far has done it. It's something that wouldn't effect the VPM world, so it's something that only a few are interested in. There must be a desire or interest by someone to do the job or it won't get done. I can't hold it against anyone for not wanting to do a job they have no need for.

VP is free, VP is Open Source, there is no bitching allowed about what it does or doesn't do. You either wait for someone to make changes or you change it yourself. When you are just a user, then you need to be patient and thankful for what you have.... That's pretty much the way it is.

I love the software, it's way better now, than it has ever been.

So John, to sum this all up, VP is really a new version of VP, rather than an update to the old VP you were use to. Trust me, it can only get better.

 

[Shockman]

For one thing, I did not mention a conspiracy. Yes, there is no conspiracy. There is however a statement that although VP is opensource that no other builds will be hosted or linked to. I merely was saying that the direction VP is going, the only version of VP that any member of VPF is going to be allowed there 'is a basically a commercial product and it was programmed to run best with the components that they used in their cabinets'

I also agree that it is a new program and it should not have a name that suggests it is a progression of VP8 because the new program does not even have the same purpose as 8.

Second, the flipper physics were very incomplete in the merged version. It did not even include the ball through the flipper fix that was a part of the commercial version.

There is no bitching going on here Bob. I am stating facts. It could not even be seen as bitching if it was not facts. The fact that some sees it as bitching suggests these points are real.

I love the software too. But I love the concept of VP even more.

 

[tiltjlp]

I vaguely remember Mr. Foley and some discussions and finger pointing shortly before I took my leave of absence. If I recall, some authors were making special tables for what then was being called Ultra Pin. I could kick myself for leaving and missing out on all the fun. With VP 9.09 documentation, hopefully I'll bring myself up to speed.

I have noticed that my older bagatelle seem to play equally as well in 8.1 or 9.09. And I've only had minor problems with adapting some older flippered originals. As long as it's still fun, and it is, I'm happy. If it eventually becomes a chore, then I'll be upset. I'm holding on to VP 8.1, just in case. Still, like you said, for a free program, it's given us a wonderful hobby.

 

[Shockman]

Anything said about VP being great is going to be true. Even if VP left the desktop behind and worked on nothing but niche hardware it is going to be great. Just as true as that though, is that it is missing something now that it had before, and that it has nothing now that should break anything that it had.

 

[bob]

I can understand them not wanting a bunch of versions of VP available. The user questions now are at a level that suggests only a few can make the complete package even work. I estimate that only about 10% of the users that download VP and PinMame get it working enough to actually keep it on their pc.

PinMame is the strength and weakness of Visual Pinball, it's what makes it so popular, but it also consumes all of its talented artists, scripters, game players, etc. Guys like me, who would just like to enjoy a new EM table every now and then are a dying breed. Where's the ROMs?

I agree with you, you mostly state facts concerning VP, but you also make it sound like someone is controlling the direction of VP when it's not true. The intere$t lie$ with the cabinet$ and PinMame.

The current guys didn't remove or add any of the stuff that I think sucks, this was all done by Nanotech and it was probably just done as the easiest way to make it work for their cabinets.

BTW, I agree with you on the .slope, there is a nice version of Playboy that doesn't load now, because he set the slope in the script and the table is locked. What a shame.

 

[Shockman]

Nothing can possibly be more important to the development than taking that hardware version and getting all the bugs out that makes it fail without the hardware in my opinion. This is especially when it is proclaimed as the only version VPF is going to support. Is VPF so unimportant to the community that it does not matter if this version is not put back into shape as to work with a monitor and keyboard? I don't think so. I think VPF is so important to the community that this should be it's objective.

 

[Shockman]

I hesitate to agree with you that the interest lies in cabinets. Because that interest is big now. But when you have something that is intended for a purpose it is going to have the most interest of people with that purpose in mind. How many people are interested in making games with excel, not many but there are some. Should Microsoft add support for them if it breaks math function? Of course not. I think the number of people that are interested in playing virtual pinball with a keyboard will always be greater by a factor of thousands to one with a cabinet, but that is only true if keyboards are just as much a viable option. I also think VPF has no responsibility to the mainstream, until it says that this version is the only one that will be hosted or linked. I truly think this is shooting themselves in the foot and the mainstream in the heart. And this is what I mean by controlling VP. There should not be many versions of VP. At least I agree that it would be better if that was not the case. I do think there should be two though, because there are two platforms, and the single code is not working as well as it should for both.

 

[bob]

But you are trying to make it sound like someone should give a shit about working on something that already works for them. Why would anyone want to spend their time redoing a piece of software that works for them on their rigs? Who would want to spend their spare time doing that? I sure as hell wouldn't do it.

This isn't really a supply and demand situation.... It's a situation that requires experience and knowledge and a will to achieve something that you so desire, not what's desired by others.

 

[Shockman]

Yes I am. And because I am an idiot.

What I am actually trying to get across is that VPF should, or it would be nice if it did say if anyone wants to have a build that works as well with standard equipment as ours does with this cabinet hardware, they can build it, and we would be happy to host it.

Your query though reads like if someone jacks your car, why would they want to give it back? I realize nothing was jacked in this case, it's more like if someone wreaked your car then why would you not be as happy with a new one that was not as good. I realize nothing was wreaked here, it's more like if someone invented a flying car, so what if he destroys the roads, just get yourself a flying car.

I understand your point better than I make out Bob. The answer is of course VPF and it's VP can go any route it pleases, but I think it is mean to say that it will not host or even link versions that go another direction? So this is not as much about the code as it is the control. Why should VP have only one version in your opinion then, Bob? I am basing this on what the owner of the web site said, that it is there for the entire community and not just a niche.

 

[bob]

You are trying to turn it into something that it is not. VP is not a website. VPF doesn't have to do anything that they don't want to do. They are what they are.... Just a website.

If you want a different VP doing what you said, then create it and upload it here. This site doesn't really even exist in the VP9 world, so you could put it on the map. It's Open Source, so go for it. You might even find people who agree with you and want the same thing as you. Would I download a VP that works better for me and what I want to do with it? You betcha. :)

 

[StevOz]

Well I reckon they should just compile the next version of VP with the old nudge code from VP8 and add a tick box for nudge type. It really should not be that difficult to do as the code is already available in the VP8.1 source and it's not like the current Developers haven't done these kind of changes in the past.