Future Pinball - BAM Open VR on Oculus Quest 2

shiva

Pinball Wizard
Staff member
Site Supporters
Really starting to get interested in VR, but my gaming laptop is getting old and now teraml overloading after 3 hours. so, just a few minutes ago, I pulled the trigger on a alienware 15 r3 with 2070 super, so now maybe I can get into this. The problem now is which vr to get, and I don't care if I have a cord attached to me or not. Any suggestions?
 

AnonTet

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Really starting to get interested in VR, but my gaming laptop is getting old and now teraml overloading after 3 hours. so, just a few minutes ago, I pulled the trigger on a alienware 15 r3 with 2070 super, so now maybe I can get into this. The problem now is which vr to get, and I don't care if I have a cord attached to me or not. Any suggestions?
Hi @shiva

I think the answer is probably too off topic. so i'll send you a chat.

I'll just say, get one and have fun because regarding Pinball, VR is a bonus and the amazing quality tables you all produce really deserve VR.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Hall of Famer
From experience... Oculus headsets tend to be more finnicky with VP VR. Headsets that are native SteamVR such as the older Vive and newer Index tend to run better (one less layer to deal with).

I've only had a Rift CV1, Rift S, and Quest 2. All of them have been finnicky, and do require specific settings to get to work nicely... but I find you really need fast hardware to run newer BAM featured tables (that use more demanding lighting, new renderer, etc) smoothly at Quest 2 native resolutions at 90hz.

Newer headsets have MUCH higher resolutions. So while my GTX 1080 ran fine with a CV1, running a Quest 2 at native resolution and 90hz is too much for newer more demanding tables to run nicely.
 

shiva

Pinball Wizard
Staff member
Site Supporters
Thanks terry. Don't think I will have any problems running VR in a couple weeks. :)
Was asking also for my son, he just sits at home playing games anyway, but he wants to get a VR as well. I will pass it on to him.
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Thanks terry. Don't think I will have any problems running VR in a couple weeks. :)
Was asking also for my son, he just sits at home playing games anyway, but he wants to get a VR as well. I will pass it on to him.
I love the Quest 2.
It is not just that it is wireless (which is a big deal for VR...being choked by a wire is a major buzz kill to VR immersion).

No external room sensors required.

You can set up the device to run ANYWHERE in seconds.

It is completely autonomous and doesn't require a gaming PC to run native Quest 2 apps

Now to access Steam VR content and run BAM VR you also need a gaming computer and 5 g network and Virtual Desktop software.....

I am perfectly happy with Quest 2 and BAM VR.

Recent software updates on Quest 2 allow blue tooth controllers so yesterday I configured it so
I can play BAM VR in any room at home.
 

shiva

Pinball Wizard
Staff member
Site Supporters
Sounds awesome. It's that price though for him. I'm not helping him with that either. :)
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Sounds awesome. It's that price though for him. I'm not helping him with that either. :)
oh ya that is another major benefit of quest 2 price is 350- 500 dollars

my wife's two sisters and parents all have Q2's and we are playing paint ball , beat saber and minigolf together online during covid :)
 

shiva

Pinball Wizard
Staff member
Site Supporters
Isn't technology so cool... :)

Thanks. I found a IPS panel for 15 dollars and have a Kinect as well, so gonna have a lot of fun. Will have a look at that Q2 as well forhim (and me if he lets me borrow it)
 

michel757

Pinball Nudger
Hello


I agree with Gimli, QUEST2 is a great standalone headset.
On the other hand, QUEST + a good router increases the price.

An evolution with the version v.1.5-327 with my 'QUEST2' in 'VR'
At the launch of Bam the Cpu frames are then 35, which no longer generates jitter.
Then slowly increase to 90 and there it becomes unplayable because of the jitter.
It is then necessary to restart Bam and STEAM VR, in order to no longer have jitter.
 

leojreimroc

Pinball Nudger
Hello. Thanks for writing this guide. Unfortunately, I am still experiencing a lot of judder. I've been trying to get future pinball working well off and on for weeks with no luck and I'm getting ready to give up for a while. I figured I would ask here for help. I have a Quest 2.

Steps I have taken:

-Re-installed Future pinball with links from : https://www.ravarcade.pl/ (ravarcade.pl - BAM - Future Pinball Mod) (I normally use the FP+ BAM link, followed by BAM-Open VR)
-I tried initially with link cable, but I was getting judder. After reading your post, I figured that buying virtual desktop would solve it. Unfortunately, I am getting the same judder.
-I followed your guide (set at 60 hz, and copied your settings in FP and inside of BAM (hitting q)
-I also set the nvidia profile as showed.

The judder is hard to explain, but it's as if the table is not completely stationary. When I move my head from side to side, it seems to want to follow it for a split second before going back to it's position. If I move my head back and forth quickly, the table will sort wobble back and forth with me. It won't completely follow my movement, but it is definitely not stationary. I tried Zaccaria Pinball from VD, and it works flawlessly. I have not tried VPX yet with VD as I have that set up with open VR at the moment. VPX works great with the link cable though, no wobbling, no complaints.

I would love to get future pinball working well with VR. There are so many great tables here. Let me know if you need any additional information!
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Hello. Thanks for writing this guide. Unfortunately, I am still experiencing a lot of judder. I've been trying to get future pinball working well off and on for weeks with no luck and I'm getting ready to give up for a while. I figured I would ask here for help. I have a Quest 2.

Steps I have taken:

-Re-installed Future pinball with links from : https://www.ravarcade.pl/ (ravarcade.pl - BAM - Future Pinball Mod) (I normally use the FP+ BAM link, followed by BAM-Open VR)
-I tried initially with link cable, but I was getting judder. After reading your post, I figured that buying virtual desktop would solve it. Unfortunately, I am getting the same judder.
-I followed your guide (set at 60 hz, and copied your settings in FP and inside of BAM (hitting q)
-I also set the nvidia profile as showed.

The judder is hard to explain, but it's as if the table is not completely stationary. When I move my head from side to side, it seems to want to follow it for a split second before going back to it's position. If I move my head back and forth quickly, the table will sort wobble back and forth with me. It won't completely follow my movement, but it is definitely not stationary. I tried Zaccaria Pinball from VD, and it works flawlessly. I have not tried VPX yet with VD as I have that set up with open VR at the moment. VPX works great with the link cable though, no wobbling, no complaints.

I would love to get future pinball working well with VR. There are so many great tables here. Let me know if you need any additional information!
What are the specs of your pc ?

Have you tried copy and pasting Bam.dll version 315 into your BAM ovr directory ? Rename you current Bam.dll to BamOld.dll or whatever.
The link cable with the quest is terrible IMHO. Definitely use Virtual desktop if you have a 5 g network. Ideally have you PC plugged directly into your router to ensure the fastest connection.
One of the options in VD gives a tiny overlay on screen of performance specs in VR that may be helpful to observe while tweaking the various parameters in VD.

BTW when testing initially I simply use the "new table " in FP as loads very quickly

I can try to give you a screen shot of how I have mine configured perhaps this evening when I am back home.
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Pinball FX2 in VR purchased in Oculus store is pretty cool as well....I like the Jaws and ET and Back to the Future Games and work flawlessly of course with no PC necessary.
 

michel757

Pinball Nudger
Pinball FX2 in VR purchased in Oculus store is pretty cool as well....I like the Jaws and ET and Back to the Future Games and work flawlessly of course with no PC necessary.
Gimli,

Absolutely, FX2 VR is great.
Too bad,, That it does not work with DOF
 

leojreimroc

Pinball Nudger
What are the specs of your pc ?

Have you tried copy and pasting Bam.dll version 315 into your BAM ovr directory ? Rename you current Bam.dll to BamOld.dll or whatever.
The link cable with the quest is terrible IMHO. Definitely use Virtual desktop if you have a 5 g network. Ideally have you PC plugged directly into your router to ensure the fastest connection.
One of the options in VD gives a tiny overlay on screen of performance specs in VR that may be helpful to observe while tweaking the various parameters in VD.

BTW when testing initially I simply use the "new table " in FP as loads very quickly

I can try to give you a screen shot of how I have mine configured perhaps this evening when I am back home.
My PC is relatively new, I got lucky to upgrade right before the pandemic hit so I was able to get a decent GPU. I'm running an amd 3800x with a RTX 2070. My PC is plugged directly into my router. Remember that the problem is only with Future Pinball. I've tried many other programs, including other pinball programs like Zaccaria and it runs really well.

I have not tried copy/pasting bam.dll version 315 into my BAM Ovr directory. I'll try that later tonight.

On seperate note, why do people say that the link cable is not great? I've tried it and see no major difference between that and VD. I'm not talking about Future pinball here but just in general I guess.
 
Last edited:

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
I have not tried copy/pasting bam.dll version 315 into my BAM Ovr directory. I'll try that later tonight.
Here is a link:
On seperate note, why do people say that the link cable is not great? I've tried it and see no major difference between that and VD. I'm not talking about Future pinball here but just in general I guess.
It may be just my old pc and I only tried it with Future Pinball, Google Earth VR and the Occulus store screen on PC and for me the link cable was totally unplayable and garbled and laggy..but it could be my settings.

Whereas VD runs very smoothly and of course wirelessly
 

leojreimroc

Pinball Nudger
Here is a link:

It may be just my old pc and I only tried it with Future Pinball, Google Earth VR and the Occulus store screen on PC and for me the link cable was totally unplayable and garbled and laggy..but it could be my settings.

Whereas VD runs very smoothly and of course wirelessly
Wow, that did it! It's not perfect, there's still remnants of what I was seeing before (I guess it's what people call jitter), but it's way way better and completely playable now. I'll keep messing with settings inside to see if I can minimize it even more, but now it's from a good starting point.

Many, many thanks. Hopefully they address this in the next versions!
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Wow, that did it! It's not perfect, there's still remnants of what I was seeing before (I guess it's what people call jitter), but it's way way better and completely playable now. I'll keep messing with settings inside to see if I can minimize it even more, but now it's from a good starting point.

Many, many thanks. Hopefully they address this in the next versions!
Great news remember to start with Terry's recommendation at the beginning of this post.

Also if you have a blue tooth gamepad (N64 or Babencool or whatever) Occulus Q2 now has blue tooth support for controllers.

FP will automatically pick up the controller and you can configure it ....under FP Game keys and Controls but I found that quite cumbersome to figure out the buttons


I purchased "ReWASD" (https://www.rewasd.com/ (Remap Xbox One controller with powerful gamepad mapper) ) instead which maps the controller buttons to keyboard keys and that worked splendidly
as I just mapped it to the keyboard keys that I am already using for FP.

With this I can play FP BAM OVR from any room in the house
 

leojreimroc

Pinball Nudger
Here is a demo of FP on Quest 2 Using Virtual Desktop
Yes, I followed Terry's guide. Your demo is still a lot more stable than mine though. Even though if changing to v315 greatly help, I feel like yours is completely stable, while mine is almost stable. I'll fiddle with settings a bit more tonight, and I'll probably redo the steps on the above guide, since I since re-installed everything so I might have missed something since then.
 

AnonTet

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Guys so... Since yesterday I can't play in VR (at least as I need to try normal gaming).

I'll leave a link here just in case because although no Oculus are reported (in that thread at least), steamVr and nvidia drivers are not playing nicely and nvidia is investigating (for months now). link -> Valve Index missing / dropped Frames | NVIDIA GeForce Forums

After many hours and trying all the workarounds and solutions seems i'll be stuck again for a while until nvidia solves this because at the moment, even in normal BAM some tables like Jaws are taking minutes to load. I'll throw the towel for the time being and I hope you guys have better luck.
 

AnonTet

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Double post for update on a fix.

OK, i'm stubborn as a mule when it comes to PC's not working so I've picked up the stupid towel today :D

After using some benchmarks noticed that floating point math results specifically were much lower in PassMark comparing to other's using the same CPU and not even being OC'ed. A bit of search led me to the solution that I now leave here hoping it can help someone else; In short, disable HPET:

Run cmd (Command Prompt) as Administrator and Copy/Paste the following lines

bcdedit /deletevalue useplatformclock
bcdedit /set disabledynamictick yes

Reboot the PC


I recommend you to try this but if it makes no difference or it gets worse, here's how to enable again.

bcdedit /set useplatformclock true
bcdedit /set disabledynamictick no

Reboot the PC
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Double post for update on a fix.

OK, i'm stubborn as a mule when it comes to PC's not working so I've picked up the stupid towel today :D

After using some benchmarks noticed that floating point math results specifically were much lower in PassMark comparing to other's using the same CPU and not even being OC'ed. A bit of search led me to the solution that I now leave here hoping it can help someone else; In short, disable HPET:

Run cmd (Command Prompt) as Administrator and Copy/Paste the following lines

bcdedit /deletevalue useplatformclock
bcdedit /set disabledynamictick yes

Reboot the PC


I recommend you to try this but if it makes no difference or it gets worse, here's how to enable again.

bcdedit /set useplatformclock true
bcdedit /set disabledynamictick no

Reboot the PC
That's great what exactly were the symptoms of the problem you fixed and how does that impact BAM OVR ?
 

AnonTet

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Now that I know better, Not BAM VR directly, I think. Problem is SteamVR. It got high CPU usage and basically, it's like being CPU bound but because BAM VR needs it...

Then it's the simulation aspect of FP which inherently needs a lot of math and floating point type - peek at bam.dll - so this was a hint later on. But I think my case is rare as it was too extreme by reading PassMark forums. And not always on this CPU either.

So here are a couple of things worth considering regarding symptoms and keep in mind this is ONLY for FP with BAM VR. VR is too demanding so a lower end card will always have some sort of symptom. Think is, for FP/BAMVR even a 1050TI is OK(ish) so problems do mean problems :)

Start Steam. Start task manager and sort processes by CPU. Launch SteamVR. Steam related stuff has high CPU usage. i8600k has 6 cores (no HT) and mine is at 5Ghz and still steam stuff got around 50% CPU for them after stabilizing steamvr launch. Until then should be 100% for a few seconds!

Enable "advance frame timing" under Developer option in SteamVR or use fpsVR if you have it as it is easier to understand.

Check gpu frame drops while gpu is doing nothing (20%gpu usage and 2GB vram used, my case example). You'll see pink line spikes. If you have your headset rested that can happen so make sure you launch a light table - the default test one in FP should do the trick but it can be too light and mask the problem. A heavier table like Jaws took minutes and the loading window would be unresponsive. It happened even in normal BAM (but I may had forgot to kill steamvr...)

Obviously, check for high CPU frame rate sometimes over 2000ms here. Look for the red line spikes or as it were, constant red for me.

Reprojection on even if you set everything to lowest settings in FP. Reprojection means FPS are half the refresh rate of your headset so anything below that is even worse and something is wrong with everything already in lowest settings. In FP.

Benchmark your PC. You should have much lower scores comparing to other's who have the same CPU/GPU. In my case, much less than half score with the added insult of me having 5ghz overclock against stock speed of 3.6Ghz on the same CPU.

PassMark does a few cpu only tests but you can see where it differed by test (the floating point math test will be the one for sure to "fail"). This was the hint I needed. Eventually I've found that HPET has been causing performance issues in gaming in general so I decided to try disabling it and it worked. YMMV.

How the hell HPET got enabled I have no idea. My UEFI doesn't even have the option to enable/disable this but some do. I only have updated my nvidia drivers (got me to previous post which is also relevant to know I suppose). But probably it was some stupid windows update in the background that got active when I rebooted as this pc is almost always on and I don't keep track of the updates.

Disclaimer: lots of stuff can cause similar issues and this applies to both CPU and GPU: thermal throttling, too high overclock speeds, memory problems and my favourites PSU and cabling issues.

So take the above with a grain of salt and remember Occam's Razor :)
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Now that I know better, Not BAM VR directly, I think. Problem is SteamVR. It got high CPU usage and basically, it's like being CPU bound but because BAM VR needs it...

Then it's the simulation aspect of FP which inherently needs a lot of math and floating point type - peek at bam.dll - so this was a hint later on. But I think my case is rare as it was too extreme by reading PassMark forums. And not always on this CPU either.

So here are a couple of things worth considering regarding symptoms and keep in mind this is ONLY for FP with BAM VR. VR is too demanding so a lower end card will always have some sort of symptom. Think is, for FP/BAMVR even a 1050TI is OK(ish) so problems do mean problems :)

Start Steam. Start task manager and sort processes by CPU. Launch SteamVR. Steam related stuff has high CPU usage. i8600k has 6 cores (no HT) and mine is at 5Ghz and still steam stuff got around 50% CPU for them after stabilizing steamvr launch. Until then should be 100% for a few seconds!

Enable "advance frame timing" under Developer option in SteamVR or use fpsVR if you have it as it is easier to understand.

Check gpu frame drops while gpu is doing nothing (20%gpu usage and 2GB vram used, my case example). You'll see pink line spikes. If you have your headset rested that can happen so make sure you launch a light table - the default test one in FP should do the trick but it can be too light and mask the problem. A heavier table like Jaws took minutes and the loading window would be unresponsive. It happened even in normal BAM (but I may had forgot to kill steamvr...)

Obviously, check for high CPU frame rate sometimes over 2000ms here. Look for the red line spikes or as it were, constant red for me.

Reprojection on even if you set everything to lowest settings in FP. Reprojection means FPS are half the refresh rate of your headset so anything below that is even worse and something is wrong with everything already in lowest settings. In FP.

Benchmark your PC. You should have much lower scores comparing to other's who have the same CPU/GPU. In my case, much less than half score with the added insult of me having 5ghz overclock against stock speed of 3.6Ghz on the same CPU.

PassMark does a few cpu only tests but you can see where it differed by test (the floating point math test will be the one for sure to "fail"). This was the hint I needed. Eventually I've found that HPET has been causing performance issues in gaming in general so I decided to try disabling it and it worked. YMMV.

How the hell HPET got enabled I have no idea. My UEFI doesn't even have the option to enable/disable this but some do. I only have updated my nvidia drivers (got me to previous post which is also relevant to know I suppose). But probably it was some stupid windows update in the background that got active when I rebooted as this pc is almost always on and I don't keep track of the updates.

Disclaimer: lots of stuff can cause similar issues and this applies to both CPU and GPU: thermal throttling, too high overclock speeds, memory problems and my favourites PSU and cabling issues.

So take the above with a grain of salt and remember Occam's Razor :)
Thanks
During Covid ole Occam is just using a sharpe knife for his stubble . No point using a "gillette fusion 5 "
He he
 
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