Honesty, Deplomacy, or Silence?

[tiltjlp]

Something has bothered me for a while, but I simply avoided the issue, until now. That something is the quality, or should I say lack of quality, of many first efforts at table making. I have an idea that much of the problem is because new authors don't take the time to learn the use of the editor, but simply jump in with both feet without any knowledge or experience. And with Future Pinball joining the scene, it appears that the situation will only worsen.

Part of the problem IMNSHO, has been caused by the new routine of beta releases by both established and newer authors. Maybe this is because newer authors don't have the experience to be able to properly test their tables before releasing them. Either way, we now have a entire new group of releases, unfinished beta versions. And the reason so many seem to never be finished might be due to the fact that none of us want to be too harsh in our comments to new authors.

Normally, if I download a table and notice a problem, especially if it's a release from an established author, I'll either e-mail or PM the author. Since we're all prone to making a few mistakes now and then, I see no reason to point mistakes out publically, in most cases. If the problem is being discussed in a thread, I may add my comments, if I can do so without making anyone look bad.

But with new authors, often a poor quality release will have a number of posts that offer encouragement, but which ignore or avoid pointing out problems. I've sent e-mails or PMs discussing problems with the table, only to have the author ignore my comments, since he or she has already been glad handed by other folks. So what should we do, be honest and possibly hurt someones feelings. or keep quiet and hope they'll improve eventually?

That said, probably the best help and advice I've received in the 15 months I've been back has come from Bob. And like most of us, it took a while for Bob's help to sink in. But in time, I tried Bob's advice, found a way to adapt it so it would work for me, and now I use it, and I think I'm a better author bacause of it. So do we treat new authors with kid gloves, giving them a false sense of pride, or do we try to offer help, even when it doesn't seen to be accepted?

John

 

[zerhino]

Well, since I am pretty much a new author, and most of my tables are pretty bad, I would think being honest would be more helpful. I never expected an "Oh my god your table is heavenly" but I was really just looking for how to improve when I release tables, especially wips. As long as you are not saying "Oh my god your table sucks I would never play it in my lifetime", because you cant totally destroy someones feelings. Thats the whole reason I started releasing tables, 1. So I could find out how I could get better at doing it and 2. So eventually, when I do get better people could enjoy my tables. But, along the same lines you dontt have to be totally mean or negative about it.

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I think you should say what you like about a new authors table first
but also add some issues that could need improving
but don't be brutaly honest (as you some times can be Tiltjlp )

 

[destruk]

Let them have it with both cannons - once - and then let them decide what to do with it.

 

[tiltjlp]

Well, since I am pretty much a new author, and most of my tables are pretty bad, I would think being honest would be more helpful. I never expected an "Oh my god your table is heavenly" but I was really just looking for how to improve when I release tables, especially wips. As long as you are not saying "Oh my god your table sucks I would never play it in my lifetime", because you cant totally destroy someones feelings. Thats the whole reason I started releasing tables, 1. So I could find out how I could get better at doing it and 2. So eventually, when I do get better people could enjoy my tables. But, along the same lines you dontt have to be totally mean or negative about it.

Thanks for your comments zerhino. I was hoping for some input from newer authors, since after 3 1/2 years, at least I tend to forget how it was to be new and confused. And while I usually try to eliminate the BS, I can understand how, as TMFP says, I come across a bit too blunt. I'll have to give your tables a try and give you a gentle but honest overview. And Destruk, I think I've used that approach in the past, and scared off an author or two.

John

 

[destruk]

The trouble is when many people complain about the same things over and over again, IMO. But perhaps you should just take feedback from new authors, as that's what this question pertains to the most.

 

[tiltjlp]

The trouble is when many people complain about the same things over and over again, IMO. But perhaps you should just take feedback from new authors, as that's what this question pertains to the most.

But actually, what I wanted to know, was how best to provide new authors with honest and helpful feedback without either insulting them or discouraging them. How can I offer real help when other people are offering nothing but hollow and faint praise? I don't what to tell someone their table is junk, even if it is, but I would like to offer them pointers on how they can improve. But if a dozen other folks have told the author their table rocks, which is a crock, how will the new author know that my advice is worthwhile?

John

 

[PacDude]

I've mostly given up on beta testing as I find most beta testers to be slow, unreliable and sometimes downright hostile when you ask them to reply in a reasonable time frame. Public testing seems to work better, IMO.

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

If a fault in a table has been mentioned once, don't mention it again
and don't expect perfection from a first timer, saying things like 'you should have used reels, fading lights, etc' would more likely make them want to give up

Don't worry Tiltjlp, you will never have to play one of my creations
I will never thing they are good enough for the public

 

[tiltjlp]

If a fault in a table has been mentioned once, don't mention it again
and don't expect perfection from a first timer, saying things like 'you should have used reels, fading lights, etc' would more likely make them want to give up

Don't worry Tiltjlp, you will never have to play one of my creations
I will never thing they are good enough for the public

Usually I point out how I would have done something, rather than simply ripping a new author's table apart. Or I'll explain why I didn't like the way they did something. And TMFP, I hate hearing that you'll never do a public release, I'm sure you are much too hard on yourself.

The main reason I started this topic was to get suggestions how to best approach a new author with constructive feedback after a half dozen people have offered nothing more helpful than empty glad handing. Offering encouragement isn't at all helpful if it doesn't honestly point out ways an author can improve.

John

 

[StevOz]

Well it's the usual, you do it like this....praise then hint.

I really like the layout and this bit is really cool, though I feel it maybe improved with the use of posts and rubber, rather then just flat walls, that kind of thing.

 

[bob]

Offering encouragement isn't at all helpful if it doesn't honestly point out ways an author can improve.

John

I unequivically disagree with this. I feel that some people get a certain satisfaction out of just creating a table and encouraging them with a few pats on the back is a good thing. If they want to become more skilled, all they have to do is look at and play a few tables and observe how other authors do stuff and/or ask questions on how to do stuff. Personally, I feel a few people think they always have to point out a negative or offer suggestions even when it's obvious that they didn't even bother downloading the table to try it. This is totally ridiculous to me, but I see it all the time.

I don't comment as often as I should on table releases, but I always try them out before I comment. None of that "I'm heading over to download this right now" stuff :) That's is a good way to reach 10,000 posts though without ever releasing a table.

Some of the most important people in the community are the one's that take the time to just thank an author for a table that they enjoyed for a few minutes and realise that the author may have spent hundreds of hours making the table.

Thank you everyone who has ever just said "Thanks Bob" 8) Because you're the one's who I continue to release tables for.

 

[StevOz]

Actually glad you commented bob, now as I recall you said TheGyruss, was not complex enough, but offered no advice as to why you would say that?

So........

Though I agree, I'm all for those hey it's great, then again I really loath those that judge the author, rather then the creation.

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Thanks Bob
thanks Stevo
Thanks Tiltjlp (even though flipperless &^%$)

 

[davidsss]

I think new authors need advice. As you do a few tables you begin to get some ideas as to how to improve the way you make them. On the other hand, new authors need to ask for advice too. I've asked for some advice recently and although it wasn't that helpful (not because the people giving advice weren't helpful, more because something I'd like to be able to do in VP isn't possible) it was forthcoming and useful.

We also need to bear in mind different people's preferences for how they make a table. I know I have a bias against using reels for graphics. This bias comes from the fact that they often don't display properly on my computer. As such I am looking at using walls to do an animation on the table I'm trying to get done at the moment, it probably won't look brilliant but it will be ok and simulate the way the table works. One other thing with reels is that, if you want the animation to look like a movie of the effect in the real machine, you almost need a movie of the effect at the correct viewing angle to make the reel frames, this can be a limitation. Also there are some things I just can't work out how to animate and I'm just going to have to replicate the effect of what is happening rather than animate how it happens.

Criticism of new authors' efforts should not be avoided, I think it's a problem when it gets nasty. People need to be a bit diplomatic and sometimes a little less direct about these things to ensure new authors aren't scared off. VP is a programme which allows you to fudge in the sense that you can use VP objects for purposes they weren't designed for - for example, using ramps for lockbars and using reels for animating graphics rather than displaying the score; given this some of the tricks can be difficult to learn. It can be a steep learning curve to make VP tables. There are still a couple of things I include in my tables that I just copy and paste code without actually understanding how it works.

DS

 

[davidsss]

To add a little more:

Sometimes it is bloody hard to work out how an author has managed to pull off the trick they have done. A good example is the spinning disc in TOTAN, I looked at that, and it's made of flippers, for the life of me I can't work out how they scripted that one where the ball hits walls and then the disc made of flippers turns as a result. Being a VPM machine makes it worse for me as I don't do VPM and don't know anything about how VP and VPM work together. You really need to find examples of effects in machines you understand.

DS