Upgrade/Project it's all about the program and the gameplay simulation

[pinhead1]

ok, i made a suggestion to an author.
it had nothing to do with this authors tables but tables in general.
after years of watching the gameplay release videos on tables in the forum as far back as VP9 in 2009 i decided to make a suggestion to the forum.
the slings elasticity at the top of the slings at the flippers are flat.
i made my own changes in the VP desktop editor to the upper slings with a custom made add-on bumpers to the left and right slings and or changed the elasticity on the rubber in the VP editor to 0.7 then bumped the kick force down to maybe 4 or more in VP9 as an example.
i played real PB and alot of EMs when i was kid at my local arcade....10c 1 play, 25c 3play 5ball...
i still do play real PB sometimes at a few places near me when i'm in the area that have PB.
no EMs...all SS tables(solidstate).
when i played real PB i remember the silverball coming down from the upper table fast, bounce the top of the slings hard just right then send the silverball into the other side drain....yikes....really.
it didn't happen all the time but on occasion it did do this if the ball had the velocity and the right bounce.
pick a few of your favorite tables and watch some YT PB videos....
pay close attention to the gameplay bounce of the upper slings bounce when the silver ball comes down from the upper table hard and fast and hits the upper sling corner....
the sling elasticity should have a healthy bounce.....
all or most of the tables out of the wrapper don't do this.....they are flat....
ok, do what you want...just trying help improve the program gameplay simulation.

 

[GeorgeH]

...pay close attention to the gameplay bounce of the upper slings bounce when the silver ball comes down from the upper table hard and fast and hits the upper sling corner....
the sling elasticity should have a healthy bounce.....

From what I have seen, the ball doesn't usually come down from the upper table hard and fast. It might do it if there is a clear shot from a bumper to the slingshot. That is my observation of videos. I haven't played real pinball in a while so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[pinhead1]

From what I have seen, the ball doesn't usually come down from the upper table hard and fast. It might do it if there is a clear shot from a bumper to the slingshot. That is my observation of videos. I haven't played real pinball in a while so maybe I'm wrong.

not playing FP right now....don't know FP physics.....maybe later
what is the upper top rubber sling bumper elasticity out of the DL you are using in FP physics?
those 2 bumpers should bounce...if not they are flat.

 

[GeorgeH]

not playing FP right now....don't know FP physics.....maybe later
what is the upper top rubber sling bumper elasticity out of the DL you are using in FP physics?
those 2 bumpers should bounce...if not they are flat.

We were actually talking about real tables.

 

[madmrmax]

what is the upper top rubber sling bumper elasticity out of the DL you are using in FP physics?
those 2 bumpers should bounce...if not they are flat.

If FP table is converted to FizX then there are unique physics objects that you add to the top of the slingshots to make it much more realistic:

 

[madmrmax]

(@pinhead -- is this site feedback or are you looking for changing either VP or FP?
I think this is the wrong sub-forum, just FYI @xenonph)

 

[pinhead1]

We were actually talking about real tables.

sorry if i mislead you.
i am talkin about the VP right now.
the upper sling elasticity settings in VP out of the DL were 0.4.
the bumpers were flat...no bounce
i don't have FP installed right now..maybe later
i dont' know what the bumper setiing are in FP.
try bumpin' up the top sling elasticity to equal VP in 0.7 elasticity and see how it plays.

 

[pinhead1]

(@pinhead -- is this site feedback or are you looking for changing either VP or FP?
I think this is the wrong sub-forum, just FYI @xenonph)

sorry to you too if i mislead you.
not sure what you mean by "looking to changing either VP or FP"?.
are you asking if i want to change the program?
no way....the program is good....this is feedback or suggestions to gamplay settings for the sling bumpers
at the flippers.
i knew the slings elasticity at the top sling bumper was flat a long time ago.
its the fine tuning and tweeking of the rubber elasticity on the sling bumpers i am talkin'out.
i thought "project/upgrade" would work for subject topic.
i am talkin' about VP9 and VPX at this time.
i am not lookin' to change anything in VP.
just the sling elastic settings at the top at the flippers.
in VP9 i used 0.7 elastic for the bounce....
the rubber settings on the slings out of the DL were 0.4....they were flat....no bounce
the bumpers should have a lot of bounce.
higher elasticty on the sling bumpers will play better.
**from my experience with real PB i was asking the forum members to bump up the elasticity of the rubber around the slings at the flippers and see how it plays....the bumpers at the top of the sling needs more bounce.
they are flat....if you don't like it go back....i didn't hurt you.
i dunno why the real PB players here are not supporting me a little.
i was giving my opinion from real PB on the rubber elasticity of the rubber at the top of the slings at the flippers.
i typed this up real fast so hope i was clear.

 

[pinhead1]

max#5
sorry max....not playing FP....maybe later
the same will apply to the upper sling bumpers if there is no bounce

 

[pinhead1]

this doesn't need to be moved to first aid.
it's not a fix....it's an easy setting adjustment to rubber elasticity.
it's a modify setting.

 

[madmrmax]

Sounds like you figured it out! Let me know if you need me to try anything out on a real PB - I have 3 in my house I can test/try experiences out on.

 

[GeorgeH]

When using FizX on FP, I normally set the rubber at the top of the sling to hard and the two bottom ones to soft. My thinking is the top rubber bounces too much at even low speeds if you set it to anything other than hard. The rubber closest to the flipper needs more bounce to make tricks work better.

That is my thinking anyway. Oddly, no one seems to complain too much about the way I adjust FizX on tables even though my adjustments have more differences than what any of the other table developers use. No one even complains about the bounce off flippers that is much less than what others use. Of course I add a tweaker adjustment for the flipper bounce that has presets that can be selected easy.

 

[pinhead1]

Sounds like you figured it out! Let me know if you need me to try anything out on a real PB - I have 3 in my house I can test/try experiences out on.

you have 3 real machines? wow xllnt
i played plenty real PB.
i have had it down stone cold for decades
where have you been?
why don't you support me a little.
the upper slings bumper at the flippers out of the DL have no bounce.
how about this?
could you give your opinion on a setting for the rubber at the upper flipper slings bumper that will be equal to your real machines?
i think the rubber elasticity at 0.7 in VP at the slings should be right.
what you recommend in VP9 and VPX?

 

[pinhead1]

When using FizX on FP, I normally set the rubber at the top of the sling to hard and the two bottom ones to soft. My thinking is the top rubber bounces too much at even low speeds if you set it to anything other than hard. The rubber closest to the flipper needs more bounce to make tricks work better.

That is my thinking anyway. Oddly, no one seems to complain too much about the way I adjust FizX on tables even though my adjustments have more differences than what any of the other table developers use. No one even complains about the bounce off flippers that is much less than what others use. Of course I add a tweaker adjustment for the flipper bounce that has presets that can be selected easy.

first, i don't know the new modern FP and all the new updates...i have some old FP on a HD but they are super old.....
long before all the new updates.....maybe later i will update...
>>>>>nobody complains>>>>G,,,,nobody complains because most here never played real PB.

 

[madmrmax]

you have 3 real machines? wow xllnt
i played plenty real PB.
i have had it down stone cold for decades
where have you been?
why don't you support me a little.
the upper slings bumper at the flippers out of the DL have no bounce.
how about this?
could you give your opinion on a setting for the rubber at the upper flipper slings bumper that will be equal to your real machines?
i think the rubber elasticity at 0.7 in VP at the slings should be right.
what you recommend in VP9 and VPX?

I think it depends -- on the real machine I haven't changed the rubbers in over 8 years. I have a new rubber set for my Indiana Jones, but I've not installed them. So, real machines you get the issue that the rubber of course deteriorates over time. And the rubber at the top of the sling shot wears the thinnest (cause the ball keeps hitting it.) That is why comparing a real machine can be tricky.

I just created a generic VPX table with elasticity at .9 and it seems good, but it is hard to compare it against my tables with old rubbers.

Adams Family
Data East Star Wars
Williams Indiana Jones

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Each table author is going to do what they prefer.

It is hard to compare to real life. New rubbers bounce more than older rubbers. new style silicone rubbers bounce even more.

 

[GeorgeH]

I am working on the Williams Indiana Jones FP version of the table as we speak. Perhaps you would like to try it before I publish?

 

[pinhead1]

max#15>>>>I just created a generic VPX table with elasticity at .9 and it seems good, but it is hard to compare
it against my tables with old rubbers.<<<<that's ok, been using .7 in my settings.....i'll try .9....i'm looking for the real PB owners here to give a general idea for the elasticity settings for the those 2 bumpers at the top of the sling at the flippers for VP and FP....i found some machines in my area....they even have tournament....i'll go back.

pete #16>>>>It is hard to compare to real life. New rubber bounce more than older rubbers. new style silicone rubbers bounce even more.<<<>....been using 0.7 in VP and seem to work ok....the bumpers out of the DL are flat....i had to bump up the elasticity from .4 to .7 on every table....maybe higher.

george#17>>>>I am working on the Williams Indiana Jones FP version of the table as we speak. Perhaps you would like to try it before I publish?<<<<i would like to but i don't have FP installed....let the real PB owners make that decision.

thanks for the replies.....i wanted to bring up an overlooked setting in the VP tables.....kind of disappointed the real PB owners never said anything about this flat bumper setting....

 

[GeorgeH]

george#17>>>>I am working on the Williams Indiana Jones FP version of the table as we speak. Perhaps you would like to try it before I publish?<<<<i would like to but i don't have FP installed....let the real PB owners make that decision.

I was actually asking @madmrmax since he has the real table.

 

[Popotte]

OK... You release a new table, so a NIB with new rubbers. Then, you play, then the rubbers deteriorate.
So, with FP (I don't know for VP), you have to adjust the rebound with the time and add in a menu an option to change the rubbers elasticity...
We can go very far with reasoning like that. The dust on the playfield, the bulbs lingering with their power,...

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

OK... You release a new table, so a NIB with new rubbers. Then, you play, then the rubbers deteriorate.
So, with FP (I don't know for VP), you have to adjust the rebound with the time and add in a menu an option to change the rubbers elasticity...
We can go very far with reasoning like that. The dust on the playfield, the bulbs lingering with their power,...

There is a really old recreation of Bally's Eight Ball that does that. Rubbers lose their bounce, bulbs burn out, eventually the recreation won't play.

 

[GeorgeH]

How long does it take to see rubbers deteriorate to the point where a reduction in bounce is noticeable?

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

How long does it take to see rubbers deteriorate to the point where a reduction in bounce is noticeable?

you do not notice it
You only notice it when the rubbers are replaced and the ball is bouncy again

If you were trying to recreate it, you would need to ask yourself how many times does a VP/FP table get played
On a real game, I will play it 10 times in one night. A VP/FP recreation , maybe two or three times

 

[StevOz]

I found this an interesting read...

https://homepinballrepair.com/replace-pinball-rubber-rings/

Though when all is said and done as someone that has had the privilege of playing a new just out of the box Scared Stiff, nothing beats the feel and gameplay of a brand new machine, this is what should be recreated.

 

[madmrmax]

I am working on the Williams Indiana Jones FP version of the table as we speak. Perhaps you would like to try it before I publish?

Happy to!