Restore The 4th Amendment

[StevOz]

I know I am unable to join in with any US residents to effect this change.

Though for your own sake and for your countries sake, I implore you to support this movement.

http://www.restorethefourth.net/

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures...”

The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution

More information here...

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/...rotests-against-unconstitutional-surveillance

 

[faralos]

after 9/11 we (most Americans) voted to instill the NHS
which stands for the National Homeland Security
whose main job it is to bother us citizens for no apparent reason
actually THEY and only they have the right to enter ANY establishment and seize
anything they want without a search warrant!
some crap about our national security and all that
but they can enter your home take anything they want without an explanation!
I know for it happened to me and my friend back in '03
they confiscated all our computer hard drives (four)
saying that my friend was a security leak
due to our having hundreds of illegally downloaded films
the flicks were at that time still playing in the theaters
my friend was getting them from the old Kazaa Lite
which back then was a file sharing site
and he had set up his computer to share files
while at the same time act as server so others could download off him!
we got the first degree even to the extent of having us go 'downtown' with them
and get fingerprinted as possible national security leaks
all that from some movies!!
so as of today the fourth amendment doesn't really exist any more
not here in the USA anyways

my definition of NHS stands for the NEW HITLER SOCIETY
which is how they carried themselves that day we had three black SUV/s
that day in front of our apartment all to the great amusement of our neighbors

 

[JonPurpleHaze]

I love the 4th Amendment and we have a bunch of great ones, our founding fathers were sorta brilliant with their language.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

The key words are unreasonable and and particularly describing the place to be searched, the debate is about a place that they could not imagine!
We have a bunch of amendments that need to be upgraded like the 2nd Amendment about the right to bear arms:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution


As mentioned previously, love the 4th, despise the 2nd but believe the 4th digital version might be necessary in a "place" that they didn't envision, there's a lot of crazy militia type folks in this country and others.

 

[sleepy]

And the blindside of it is in the term "The People", which cannot ever mean the government or other people, but We the People in The First Person against the trespasses by Third Party Others.

I do support The 2nd Amendment. Our founding fathers were well aware of the fact that the primary threat to Our Liberty comes not from another country, but from within our own borders.

 

[JonPurpleHaze]

And the blindside of it is in the term "The People", which cannot ever mean the government or other people, but We the People in The First Person against the trespasses by Third Party Others.

I do support The 2nd Amendment. Our founding fathers were well aware of the fact that the primary threat to Our Liberty comes not from another country, but from within our own borders.

Yikes, what color is that Kool Aid, red? Sorry, but that's just nutso to me, it's folks that strongly believe in the outdated 2nd and 4th that are most likely to create militias within our borders. Our founding fathers never knew about Ak47's but you are wrong about your assumption about our greatest threat being internal, there's been 2 world wars since the Civil War. The first part of your quote means nothing after the decision by the Supreme Court, allowing massive corporate and PAC spending, we ain't the people anymore.

 

[LeeVanCleef]

I firmly believe in the 2nd Amendment as written by our founding fathers. I believe that everyone has a right to own a musket.

 

[sleepy]

Not exactly Ruby. The 2nd Amendment protects the right to keep and bear Arms.
Arms are weapons of defense, not limited to muskets.
Arms can include swords.

And Jon, The Declaration of Independence offers this.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.

There was never meant to be a Military separate from The People. We were to be The Militia in defense of our country and our Liberty, and not have a military as a separate body of force which exists above The People. We saw that force executed in Chicago and at Kent State.

How then could we ever abolish any government without the means to back that up?

No, I think the issue of guns is the problem of mental illness, that so many of the tragedies are caused by the failure of the suspect's families and friends to recognize the danger and to report it. The issue of gun permits needs to be a matter of separating those who are devoted to the cause of Defense from those who are motivated to injure, maim and kill, particularly as many of the latter are in The Service. During Viet Nam I met many malcontent punks who wanted to join up just to kill somebody. Those are the ones who should not have guns.

And like the Sandy Hook shootings. If the suspect's Mom were able to contact the authorities the day she felt threatened, and have them temporarily store her rifles while her son was sent for help, that may have been a different outcome. But the law doesn't currently offer that service. For sure, many of the modern tragedies
could have been prevented if somebody could have subdued the suspects.

Guns belong to The People, but only as a last resort and always by exercising Good Common Sense in defense against the dominant sort.

 

[JonPurpleHaze]

Not exactly Ruby. The 2nd Amendment protects the right to keep and bear Arms.
Arms are weapons of defense, not limited to muskets.
Arms can include swords.

And Jon, The Declaration of Independence offers this.

Arms are weapons of aggression, not defense, the law was made for musket bearing brit bashers. I'd feel much better if they buy swords or muskets.
About the Declaration of Independence, great document but when slave owners declare....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal

It needed to be tweaked....

 

[sleepy]

Damn right it needed to be tweaked, and the unfortunate circumstance demanded weapons to rectify the ill-conceived reality of that hypocrisy.

 

[faralos]

maybe they meant this?

and it got misconstrued over the years
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290865585662?hlp=false&var=

 

[StevOz]

Eh...the land of the free and the brave, though not so free and not brave at all any more, got to love it, more concerned about being shot or the chance to shoot someone then the certainty that big brother is now watching you.

Both due to some paranoid fear of some enemy that does exist, though the chances of them ever getting you is highly unlikely.

If you bear arms and spy on the whole world, yourselves included that makes next to no difference, in fact it most likely increases that chance by creating more enemies, though it means you lose your privacy, many of the freedoms that go with it and increase your chances of being shot in the head, most likely by one of your own, brilliant just brilliant!

How far have you fallen since 1932?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_inauguration_of_Franklin_D._Roosevelt#Inaugural_address

 

[sleepy]

Big Brother? Why not just call the cops about that?

 

[StevOz]

Big Brother? Why not just call the cops about that?

Most likely because over there you will be arrested as a whistle blower, tortured and then imprisoned.

 

[sleepy]

But that's just it. We have a Democracy. The majority of people are of good common sense, and yet the government is still capable of great harm.
As for criminals, the cops in Los Angeles are busy here. It can take them 45 minutes to respond to a call. Though they are quicker about criminal acts against commercial employees, liquor clerks, etc., I wouldn't want to be left defenseless in case of an armed robbery.

In times past, the gangs have made their own zip guns, not commercial and not traceable. Even if we banned guns, there are illegal weapons from Mexico showing up El Norte. The drug war isn't working either.

 

[StevOz]

So when was the last time in your 58 years you had to defend yourself from an armed robbery and how did that go?

Additionally a war against drugs or terrorism is never going to work, it's just such a ridiculous concept that it beggars belief!

 

[faralos]

what about these newfangled 3d printers?
is it possible to print out an untraceable plastic gun of some sort?

 

[StevOz]

what about these newfangled 3d printers?
is it possible to print out an untraceable plastic gun of some sort?

All manner of things are possible, still the gun you allude to can only fire 1 round, requires a real bullet, a metal hammer, has a poor range and is not very accurate. Also it is likely to blow up in your face, especially after multiple usages.

 

[StevOz]

Now watch the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=hjItu4SchJU&v=mZdVAasebxM

 

[sleepy]

Twice.
Once when a local pimp decided that he didn't like me seeing what he was doing while I sat in my car in my apartment's parking lot. So he went back to his car, pulled out a pistol, walked up to my car window and punched me square in the eye while aiming the pistol.

And the second incident wasn't a gun. It was a stolen SUV up at the corner liquor store. The undercover officer blew his stakeout and the suspect caught it. So he tore down the alleyway street past our apartments and the children who were just let out of school at 50+MPH, turned right at the school intersection, past the school, ran the red light, and struck a BMW which beheaded the two women inside. The suspect survived. No, this wasn't an armed robbery. Yes, I would have shot out his tires, or the windshield.

And there was the drive-by shooting at the local high school across the street from our apartments. Twice now. The metal gatework of our apartment entrance still shows the dents from the bullets.

As for 3D Printers, not necessary. Zip guns often use powder and hardware bolts for bullets, like a Musket. You care to argue with one?

And StevOz, you object to military-corporate control of us and our world and yet lament The People for being in possession of the same science, what used to be the folk arts. Gunpowder is largely sewage. Saltpeter comes from aged piss.
In the old days, there were saltpeter pans placed under outhouses to collect the urine and allow it to age two weeks to saltpeter before being collected for munitions production. The materials necessary for production are not out of reach.

The Oklahoma Bomber used manure (Ammonium Magnesium Phosphate) for the explosive. The psychos who would abuse this knowledge are not in the distant past. They are from next year.

 

[StevOz]

Twice, yet both times you never had that gun on your person or wisely chose not to use or produce it and if you had do you really believe the end result would have ended any better? I'd say the end result would have been far worse if you did have your gun at hand.

As for zip guns, those things are that dangerous and unreliable, that surely a knife, sword or even a house brick or axe would be a far better alternative.

The people don't have the same science or know how even with your liberal gun laws, no untrained group of gun toting folks would stand a chance against the trained military.

Ah, the Oklahoma Bomber, was going to mention that US citizen myself, seems to me almost all terrorist acts committed in the US have been committed by US citizens and I include 9/11 in that. There is more evidence to suggest 9/11 was an inside job, then an act formulated and conducted by those outside of the US.

Sure bombs can be made from commonly available fertilisers and such, thus legislation and control of the distribution of bulk amounts of these items has been enacted, as it should have been.

9/11 could have been stopped if the then already legislated regulations were enforced without the need for any new legislation. Mighty strange that legislation was not enforced at time isn't it, some might even call it suspicious.

 

[sleepy]

The people don't have the same science or know how even with your liberal gun laws, no untrained group of gun toting folks would stand a chance against the trained military.

Whole point, exactly. We are The People, and not others deciding for or against us.

 

[StevOz]

So are you saying the people are just fine with the removal of the 4th amendment then?

 

[JonPurpleHaze]

Love the debate, love this country but there are too many gun toting crazy mutha's in this country, almost any mutha can buy a gun legally in this country, We Suck...

Whole point, exactly. We are The People, and not others deciding for or against us.

Kindly refer to my earlier post, we Ain't the People anymore, corporations and PAC's own us, We Suck...

The people don't have the same science or know how even with your liberal gun laws, no untrained group of gun toting folks would stand a chance against the trained military.

The biggest threat is internal? Kool Aid drinking, gun toting mutha's are all about paranoia.

 

[faralos]

two things: 1 my dad who used to live in Kentucky says that there
at the local flea markets anyone can buy a gun it is up to that individual
to get it licensed or registered or whatever you have to do to legally own it
but he bought a few from a guy at a table without ever registering the sale
(my dad used to collect guns before they got robbed in Kentucky and had over 60 guns!)
2 you mention trained military I gotta' laugh at that one
when I was in the Air force we had to shoot a gun!
ONE day was spent on us shooting at a rifle range
and if the gun jammed we had to raise our hand and our drill Sergeant
would come over to unjam it for us as we weren't allowed to touch the gun at all to unjam it!
so how does this help us should we ever have to protect ourselves with it?
it ain't like we can raise our hand during a war or say "time out I have a gun jam!"
his reasoning was we are air force and shouldn't have to worry about shooting guns since we attack from above!
yeah that should go over well during wartime!
trained? we weren't not by a long shot!

 

[sleepy]

Now you know, I ain't talkin' gun totin' redneck trash, or killin' for sport or over a bad game of cards or Gyruss, etc.

In the event of hostile government, our hope is left to those in the military who still believe in the cause of Liberty and Justice and not Western Expansionism and not Armed Authoritarian Government against The People.
There were several Marine Vets who joined up with Occupy Wall Street, so there is still hope.

As for paranoia, I might draw the same conclusion about those who do not trust The People with guns, like cars vs. bad drivers. It all depends on who has the guns. I've just spent the last 24 hrs. enjoying the fireworks and firecrackers and M80s. Those are also illegal to buy or use.