Two sets of flippers?

[Shockman]

Doesn't anybody pay attention. Just the day before I discovered that BTTF could be eliminated, I was working, and discussed using two sets of flippers in the same place and reducing bttf at least 90%.

Not long before UC physics I posted a table that used two flippers in the same spot and reduced balls through the flipper with down speeds ridiculously low.

Now there is new discussion at VPF that this is something new, and from someone that responded to those threads years back. And they still don't have it right. One set invisible? You might as well move that set off the table because it is going to have no effect on the ball. That is how PacDude could have the two set of flippers to choose from, because if one set is set invisible, then it does not matter if the entire table is littered with them, they are going to have no effect.

You have to have two visible sets of flippers sharing the same space. I have done many examples of that throughout the years. With different shape, physics and even an example where one set always moved up while the main set was moving down. Even an example that used one set that the flipper would move down two and up one on the down swing fast enough where you could not tell it was doing this. No balls through the flipper was possible at any realistic downswing speed.

I dropped some of these things when the general method was adopted, and others when UC physics were added, but I still have those examples.

I have also shown that there is no problen with UC physics that would keep it from working as good as VP physics with the right settings and in some cases better. Unless you are relying on the ball to fall through a 3 pixel hole or something like it does with VP physics.

I have also shown that I can set a single set of flippers that will shoot where you aim with them.

VP's flippers are gimpy, and there is things that can be used to improve them and nothing that can make them real. If you are going to announce something new though, you should have something new.

It's a good thing I can not post at VPF, Isn't it?

 

[Rick2007]

Two sets of Flippers....HMMMMM,,, That is a really new and innovative idea. (For Me !!!)
I think that what you describe is a back up set of flippers set to slightly
different specs, so a ball through the first flipper will be played by the
second flipper set and thus eliminate BTTF.

Very creative Shockman. Has this been done regularly in current pinball games,,???

You mention,,,,,,,,(I dropped some of these things when the general method was adopted.) So has this method been around for some time? I have not read any
reference to this when anyone complains about BTTF.

I will be trying out this idea tomorrow in a test table or two.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Rick :)

 

[Rick2007]

Ok I found the thread at VP Forums that talks about this concept.

I will have fun with this,,,, maybe try 3 sets of flippers just to push the envelope a bit farther.

Rick

 

[Shockman]

Three? I've played around with 36. One for up and 36 for down. There was no actual down swing going on. Worked a charm, but the flippers end up going down faster than the ball wants to go when the flipper has stopped a ball during this simulated downswing, unless the downswing is to slow, or the slope is jacked up too high, or the elasticity is too low.

And it does not matter how many you have, if the flipper is on it way down, any of them, when the ball hits it, it will be like there is nothing there. It will go through 100 just as quick as it will go through 1. This has nothing to do with the speed of the ball or the flipper and never has.

Invisible flippers do nothing. The latest release of BTTF has a main set of flippers that do nothing. The aux does it all. Any difference the invisible set makes is only imagined.

 

[Shockman]

I think what JP stumbled upon was something I have been saying for years and based my Shockmods on and that is that flippers do actually work better if the are set up realistically with the right size and arc. It did not take much to convince the community that unrealistic settings worked better, and it happened early. Yet the whole time everyone was complaining about VP's flippers.

it's just like working with dark flat acrolites (acrylics). You put then on and they match wet, but very soon "burn in" dark. Then it takes quite a bit of time for them to lighten up. You don't think you have a match so you lighten up your paint, and again and again. same thing. But if you just do it and trust it it works out. I have seen this in my business. Every time I ask for the original paint, put it on, they say "see" I say let's go. Next day all you see is lighter spots that they thought was too dark still. Except for the spot I touched up with the original color. It matches.

I'm not kidding or even overstating that without the shock mods I have made, I aim for a target bank and with them I aim for targets in that bank.

 

[Rick2007]

Three? I've played around with 36. One for up and 36 for down. There was no actual down swing going on. Worked a charm, but the flippers end up going down faster than the ball wants to go when the flipper has stopped a ball during this simulated downswing, unless the downswing is to slow, or the slope is jacked up too high, or the elasticity is too low.

And it does not matter how many you have, if the flipper is on it way down, any of them, when the ball hits it, it will be like there is nothing there. It will go through 100 just as quick as it will go through 1. This has nothing to do with the speed of the ball or the flipper and never has.

Invisible flippers do nothing. The latest release of BTTF has a main set of flippers that do nothing. The aux does it all. Any difference the invisible set makes is only imagined.

So I guess that the BTTF is a result of of the flipper down not responding.
Maybe "Flipper Up 3 times????"

Just a thought.

Rick

 

[Shockman]

I don't follow, but yeah, using something that will stop the ball while the flipper is on it's way down is the answer. Another flipper will do that, but not if it is on it's way down at the point of contact too.

 

[StevOz]

Yeah, I experimented with double flippers years ago, though basically came to the conclusion the single flipper with a fast downswing and arc angle reduced to about 56 to 58 degrees was the best compromise. Double flippers do work, though would cause the occasional wild unpredictable back flips and the like.

 

[Rick2007]

I don't follow, but yeah, using something that will stop the ball while the flipper is on it's way down is the answer. Another flipper will do that, but not if it is on it's way down at the point of contact too.

I was thinking that an invisible flipper "Or Three" set to "Flipper Up" a few
micro seconds behind the main set of flippers would still be on the upswing
and catch a ball before the dreaded BTTF.

(These are just random thoughts from a beginner.)

Rick

 

[bob]

As Phil already posted above, invisible flippers do nothing. The flipper going up hits the ball, the flipper going down, lets a faster moving ball go thru the flipper.

 

[Rick2007]

As Phil already posted above, invisible flippers do nothing.

So should I have said double or triple flippers???:)

 

[Shockman]

You can have a working invisible flipper, but it would still have to set to visible. To do this just use pure Black. If a flipper is marked as not visible IT WILL NOT interact with the ball. That don't mean it depends on how many there are, or what color they are. Someone tell that PK to get his ass over here! I need to revoke his apprenticeship or re-school the man.

 

[PcwaG]

How 'bout no flippers, then the ball can't go through 'em. Ya just shake the hell out of da playfield ta keep da ball in play.
I like-a dat idear.

 

[Shockman]

Been there, done that.