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Help JAWS (Ultimate Pro 1.08) how can we fix this graphic bug with the flipper finger ?

Jens.L

Pinball Nudger
I could also reproduce this fault. It happens if you have more than 3 balls on the flipperfinger for 5 seconds. Any ideas ?

You can see the fault by 17:40 +

 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
The problem you are experiencing has to do with the physics. If you cradle the ball long enough, it will "sink" through the flipper when you hold it long enough even with just one ball (though it takes quite a while). Ravarcade told me to change a couple of settings in the "PHYSICS XML" that is located near the beginning of the script to fix this problem. I pasted a portion of this section below. Try changing the values in red below to "0". I have been slow to implement the change because it appears to change the bounce of the ball off the flippers but give it a try and let me know what happens.

' <flipper releaseOmega="18" rotationSpeedChart="{0.0,100.0}[0.0,100.0]" newtonDamping="1" mass="20150" omega="43" moeMethod="0"
' leftXoff="0" leftYoff=
"1500" leftZoff="0"
' rightXoff="0" rightYoff=
"1500" rightZoff="0"></flipper>

Note: Be sure to save changes before you play the table. It is possible to edit the script and play the table without saving but don't do it because the changes won't be implemented. Save first and then play.
 
Last edited:

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
I have played the table a bit and there is way too much bounce of the ball off the flippers if you change the "PHYSICS XML" as I described in the previous post. There is a Bounce Control section in the script that looks like this:

const base_elasticCoef = 0.90 ' very bouncy flipper rubber
const expected_ball_speed_after_hit =
350 ' calc elasticCoef to get desired ball speed after ball hit flipper
const minimum_elasticCoef_to_scale_fast_balls =
0.15 ' we will add this to calculated elastiCoef, so ball after hit will have aditional 5% of speed before hit
const reduction_for_flipper_in_motion =
0.17 ' if flipper is not in starting point, reduce elasticCoef by 20%

I am not finished experimenting but these numbers work better that the existing ones. Try making the following replacements:

Replace 0.90 with 0.50
Replace 350 with 300
Leave 0.15 unchanged
Replace 0.17 with 0.15

You guys can experiment with these numbers. Let me know if you find numbers you like better.
 

DuMichAuch72

Pinball Nudger
Thanks for the fast response, George!
I've tried th code above, but nothing changed. The balls still wandering through the flipper fingers...
EDIT: I've missed to refresh the page in my browser. I will test the values for the bounce control.
 
Last edited:

DavidVanScouten

Freispiel!
If I set these values to "0", it makes a huge difference to me.
The bounce is so violent that I can't do any finger tricks and a full stop of the ball. Even a clever change from one finger to the other is more difficult.
Whether the balls still flow through the fingers I can't tell, because the strong bouncing off the fingers and holding the balls is very difficult.
EDIT:
Thanks for the other values I have to test!
 

DavidVanScouten

Freispiel!
@GeorgeH
Thanks for these values and it worked! :D
Since I have played this table recently and know it quite well, I can say that it is the old one again!
Four balls on the finger and after 5 minutes no dropping! :D

Thank you very much for your research & work!
 
Last edited:

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
...I've tried the code above, but nothing changed. The balls still wandering through the flipper fingers...
After you make changes to the script, try saving changes and then close FP saying yes to any prompts that ask if you want to save changes. Then try playing the table.

Everyone:

The Bounce Control numbers that I posted in message 5 above are only preliminary. Please experiment and post any changes you make here.

George
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
@GeorgeH
Thanks for these values and it worked! :D
Since I have played this table recently and know it quite well, I can say that it is the old one again!
Four balls on the finger and after 5 minutes no dropping! :D

Thank you very much for your research & work!
You are welcome my friend. Maybe everyone else might find this to be useful. Maybe I won't need to change the values.
 

Gin

Pinball Nudger
Site Supporters
@GeorgeH - Perhaps this guidance could be included as a new entry within the "Tutorials and Guides" section; under a suitable name/heading of course..., as opposed to potentially (inadvertently(?)) coming across this great piece of information.

Then again, it may be down to each of us individually to create our own 'perfect' physics - but I for one will be using this going forward... thank you!
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
I'm not quite sure what we need to do with this going forward. There are a lot of tables out there that have the values for leftYoff and rightYoff set to 1500. I'm not sure how that happened. I remember several years ago that the left/right x, y, z options for the flippers appeared when you pressed Ctrl Shift "C" on the Physics Tweaks menu in BAM. I never understood what they were and I don't think anyone did but 1500 may have been added automatically at that time. I have just checked when you perform Ctrl Shift "C" now the left/right x, y, z options are all set to 0. A few of the XML files that are provided when you install BAM have leftYoff and rightYoff set to 1500.

...But I guess all that does not make much difference now. We need to fix this going forward. The old preset values I created for bounce control all need to be changed that I added to the script of many of my tables and were copied by everyone. I created them by having two groups of settings that worked and used an Excel file to expand these two groups with a linear progression to create 12 groups of settings. I don't know what all the presets need to be now or even the first two groups of settings should be. The first step I guess is to check to see if the first group of settings I posted on message 5 above work for other tables. I think there will probably need to be some changes. Then we need to figure out another group of settings that work.

I have attached the original Excel file I used to create the Bounce Control settings (if it helps).
 

Attachments

Last edited:

TerryRed

Pinball Wizard
OK... so I may need to also play with this a bit and add it to the PinEvent update for Jaws U-Pro, and maybe the others.

I want to be sure I'm following correctly. Make this section look like this....

<flipper releaseOmega="18" rotationSpeedChart="{0.0,100.0}[0.0,100.0]" newtonDamping="1" mass="20150" omega="43" moeMethod="0"
' leftXoff="0" leftYoff="0" leftZoff="0"
' rightXoff="0" rightYoff="0" rightZoff="0"></flipper>


...then take this section....

const base_elasticCoef = 0.90 ' very bouncy flipper rubber
const expected_ball_speed_after_hit = 350 ' calc elasticCoef to get desired ball speed after ball hit flipper
const minimum_elasticCoef_to_scale_fast_balls = 0.15 ' we will add this to calculated elastiCoef, so ball after hit will have aditional 5% of speed before hit
const reduction_for_flipper_in_motion = 0.17 ' if flipper is not in starting point, reduce elasticCoef by 20%

...and make these initial adjustments...

Replace 0.90 with 0.50
Replace 350 with 300
Leave 0.15 unchanged
Replace 0.17 with 0.15

...and fine tune those as needed.

I understand this is not tested to the max and isn't a hard core rule yet...but if the table can play the same without this issue....then it's worth updating the code.

You won't often see this be an issue unless you are trapping multiple balls for a multi-ball mode, which with Jaws U-Pro you definetly can do often.... so it's worth implementing this where it's needed and works well.

Good find everyone!
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
That is correct. Be sure to save changes before you play. I have noticed that any BAM coding (like in the XML) saved as a comment will not update until you save changes.
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
Guys,

I have been experimenting the bounce control numbers and think I have some better numbers for Slam's Jaws table. You need to change the flipper setting in the XML to be the same as previously posted:

<flipper releaseOmega="18" rotationSpeedChart="{0.0,100.0}[0.0,100.0]" newtonDamping="1" mass="20150" omega="43" moeMethod="0"
' leftXoff="0" leftYoff="0" leftZoff="0"
' rightXoff="0" rightYoff="0" rightZoff="0"></flipper>

Try changing the bounce control to these numbers:

const base_elasticCoef = 0.81
const expected_ball_speed_after_hit = 244
const minimum_elasticCoef_to_scale_fast_balls = 0.06

const reduction_for_flipper_in_motion = 0.19

I still have not figured out the table of numbers that I have posted on my previous tables but I am getting there. Please provide feedback as to whether you like these numbers better or worse than the old ones.

George
 

DavidVanScouten

Freispiel!
Guys,

I have been experimenting the bounce control numbers and think I have some better numbers for Slam's Jaws table. You need to change the flipper setting in the XML to be the same as previously posted:

<flipper releaseOmega="18" rotationSpeedChart="{0.0,100.0}[0.0,100.0]" newtonDamping="1" mass="20150" omega="43" moeMethod="0"
' leftXoff="0" leftYoff="0" leftZoff="0"
' rightXoff="0" rightYoff="0" rightZoff="0"></flipper>

Try changing the bounce control to these numbers:

const base_elasticCoef = 0.81
const expected_ball_speed_after_hit = 244
const minimum_elasticCoef_to_scale_fast_balls = 0.06

const reduction_for_flipper_in_motion = 0.19

I still have not figured out the table of numbers that I have posted on my previous tables but I am getting there. Please provide feedback as to whether you like these numbers better or worse than the old ones.

George
Thank you for your work!
I'll play it with these values.
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
Guys,

I have created the attached new Excel file (zipped) with all the new values to use. I painstakingly made the new values match the characteristics of the old ones. I have also attached a text file that you can open in Notepad. Do not try to use the values directly from Notepad because everything will appear to be all messed up. After you open the file in Notepad, click on the "Edit" menu and then "Select All". Then, click on the "Edit" menu again and then "Copy". Now paste it into the script of a table where it will display correctly. The directions are pretty simple. The Notepad file has both the old and new values. If you have a table that used the values from Group 3, all you need to do is change the XML so that leftYoff equals 0 and rightYoff equals 0 and then change the bounce control over to the new Group 3 values.

...And yes unfortunately the values need to change for the Jaws table (hopefully for the last time). Slamt1lt used values at the midpoint between Groups 4 and 5. The new values are:

const base_elasticCoef = 0.61
const expected_ball_speed_after_hit = 231
const minimum_elasticCoef_to_scale_fast_balls = 0.04
const reduction_for_flipper_in_motion = 0.20

Please try these new values and let me know what you think.
I would prefer posting a reply instead of using "Like".

George
 

Attachments

NitroNimbus

Pinball Nudger
Hi George,
Balls sinking through the flippers is not an issue on any of my tables or released table mods. Rav notified me to make the "0" changes back in Oct 2019 when I released my mod of Dolly Parton. I actually like the bouncy flippers on the older style tables but it was a little too much. Thank you for the Bounce Control text file I now understand how and have the confidence to make these changes. Great work as always, cheers!
F@cK!! now I have to go and redo Dynamic Flippers on over 300 tables on my cab.. AAAAHHHH!!! 🤪
 
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