Flipperless Rat Race (Willams, 1983) and other re-creations with BAM

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
I was toying with making a brio labyrinth type game for future pinball . With BAM miniplayfield coding I can code tilting table in all directions and gravity and slope effect is automatic but I havent tested how precise

EDIT: Project and posts arose from this thread. --Ike
 
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Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
Site Supporters
What would be pretty 'next level' is if the graphics could be rendered from different angles in a maze game, then changed on the fly via drop walls (or whatever the best current method is).

I was thinking for something like Rat Race, you'd only do it to a subtle extent, enough to create the optical illusion of tilting, because you can't actually visually change the real slope of the game.
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
What would be pretty 'next level' is if the graphics could be rendered from different angles in a maze game, then changed on the fly via drop walls (or whatever the best current method is).

I was thinking for something like Rat Race, you'd only do it to a subtle extent, enough to create the optical illusion of tilting, because you can't actually visually change the real slope of the game.
In FP I can change the slope visually...I did it with The Path of Adventure in IJ and we even used a vertical playfield for the Back Box in Wild's NES pinball remake
 

Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
Site Supporters
In FP I can change the slope visually...I did it with The Path of Adventure in IJ and we even used a vertical playfield for the Back Box in Wild's NES pinball remake
Pretty sure VP authors did the same thing with IJ, altho I would think it's a lot easier to simulate when only tilting on one axis. It's still just a form of visual trickery via dropwalls AFAIK. Because once you set the rendered angle in the editor, you're locked in.

Which is why doing tilting on a double axis, as in maze games, sounds a lot more challenging to me.

If you can do true, physical & visual tilting on the fly in VP or FP, that would be news to me.
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Pretty sure VP authors did the same thing with IJ, altho I would think it's a lot easier to simulate when only tilting on one axis. It's still just a form of visual trickery via dropwalls AFAIK. Because once you set the rendered angle in the editor, you're locked in.

Which is why doing tilting on a double axis, as in maze games, sounds a lot more challenging to me.

If you can do true, physical & visual tilting on the fly in VP or FP, that would be news to me.
You can with BAM :)
No Tricks
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
@Ike Savage
@wild
Here is a demo table proof of concept for the "Rat Race" or "Brio Labyrinth"
Make sure you running FP under BAM ( use FPloader.Exe in the BAM directory)

using the "F" and "V" you can tilt the table in the x-axis and using "<" and ">" you tilt the table in the Y-axis.
It seems to work beautifully .

So from here it would just take someone like wild to construct the table. I will see if he is interested in Creating a Flipperless FP game.

Cheers
 

Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
Site Supporters
Wow, that was interesting!

Any idea what setting the 'buried table' might be related to?

Regardless, I see what you mean about tilting on a double axis. Very cool!

Note: if you like, you can just attach things like this in the future. The attachment size limit is pretty huge, as a matter of fact.
 

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Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
The burried table I coded so you could see full table as a demo only. With x axis tilting the table edge was obscurring the view
 

Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
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The burried table I coded so you could see full table as a demo only. With x axis tilting the table edge was obscurring the view
I don't really understand, but it probably doesn't matter. The example is clear enough.

I'll definitely be interested in whether wild or someone can code an FP version of Rat Race, or maybe some other type of maze game.

Projects like these are kind of a personal favorite. This was the last significant project of mine when I was still working in VP:
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
@Gimli
So from here it would just take someone like wild to construct the table. I will see if he is interested in Creating a Flipperless FP game.

@Ike Savage
I'll definitely be interested in whether wild or someone can code an FP version of Rat Race, or maybe some other type of maze game.


I only noticed this discussion by chance, browsing a little here and there.... I have not received any notification regarding the @wild,about this discussion......which table is it?
if I can help in any way, I would be available to do, without problems, indeed it will be a pleasure for me, to help....

but I have to know something more, if there is graphics to do, (but I don't know to redesign), to make graphics yes .... if there are sounds or music, or better if there is some version of VP, which I could use, to convert to FP ... nor have I already made 6, so there should be no problems....

I understand that we should use Bam for the inclination of the ball, depending on where we should direct it, right?so it should be a project that Gimli should be involved in too .... hey, Bob ..like in the old days , huh? :laugh13:
our last work dates back no less than a few weeks ago:peace:
 
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Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
@Gimli


@Ike Savage



I only noticed this discussion by chance, browsing a little here and there.... I have not received any notification regarding the @wild,about this discussion......which table is it?
if I can help in any way, I would be available to do, without problems, indeed it will be a pleasure for me, to help....

but I have to know something more, if there is graphics to do, (but I don't know to redesign), to make graphics yes .... if there are sounds or music, or better if there is some version of VP, which I could use, to convert to FP ... nor have I already made 6, so there should be no problems....

I understand that we should use Bam for the inclination of the ball, depending on where we should direct it, right?so it should be a project that Gimli should be involved in too .... hey, Bob ..like in the old days , huh? :laugh13:
our last work dates back no less than a few weeks ago:peace:
@wild
Hey Paolo,
This should be a fun little project. Let's do Rat Race if you can make the table from VP graphics
as a full sized MP off to the side of the table, then I can do the rest.

I will make the FP default table disappear and move Rat Race playfield as a Miniplayfield.

Meanwhile I will create a Brio Labryinth just for fun as that will be easy I think :)
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
@Ike Savage
I forgot to tell you to unselect Games Room in FP video settings as I recall the Einstein picture got in the way of the table demo :eek:
And I see what you mean now by a burried table....

Sorry to post this in an VP Mame thread...but "Flipperless" games got my attention

Please try again...its so embarassing :)
Launch a ball and use "F" and "V" for X axis and "<" and ">" for Y-axis
@wild
Paolo see RateRace.fpt table demo in my above post....
 
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wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
@Gimli @Ike Savage
Hey Paolo,
This should be a fun little project. Let's do Rat Race if you can make the table from VP graphics
as a full sized MP off to the side of the table, then I can do the rest.

I will make the FP default table disappear and move Rat Race playfield as a Miniplayfield.

Meanwhile I will create a Brio Labryinth just for fun as that will be easy I think

ok, I think it's funny, oh..right!!!, let's try ... but where is this version of vp? if there is, I have to see I can pull out what it takes ... and we hope that I can use it

meanwhile I tried your demo, I modified it a little, to give an idea of what Bam is and what he can do ..... I hope this can help people understand ......arrow keys to move up-down-left-right......try it yourself to put the ball inside the smallest circle

https://www.sendspace.com/file/ptrj8h

PS; I would like if this project (the first one here, and I hope it can be realized) was in its specific section ..... that is, in Bam Corner / Bam table wip





 

Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
Site Supporters
@Gimli,
Okay, I'll change that setting and try it out again later. No worries about adding on to this thread. I'll go ahead and split these posts out to a new thread later in the day.

Also, I'm thinking this could be a rather brilliant showcase project for FP, in that it seems to demonstrate a significant capablity that FP-BAM has over VP and VPX (far as I know, anyway). Could be a good little head-turner for jaded parts of the VP crowd, I would guess.


@wild,
There will be forum expansions coming, yes. Talks are now happening.

If you'd really like to emulate Rat Race in particular, I'd strongly suggest learning how it works from the VP8 version, which requires pinMAME. You can get the table here. That also includes the ROM link, which you'll need. Plus the industry flyer, which is just cool.

Attached is the playfield from the VP version, and here's the IPDB's resources for the game:
 

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Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
@Gimli @Ike Savage




ok, I think it's funny, oh..right!!!, let's try ... but where is this version of vp? if there is, I have to see I can pull out what it takes ... and we hope that I can use it

meanwhile I tried your demo, I modified it a little, to give an idea of what Bam is and what he can do ..... I hope this can help people understand ......arrow keys to move up-down-left-right......try it yourself to put the ball inside the smallest circle

https://www.sendspace.com/file/ptrj8h

PS; I would like if this project (the first one here, and I hope it can be realized) was in its specific section ..... that is, in Bam Corner / Bam table wip





View attachment 13950
@wild
HEHE
That is really COOL !!

I played the brio labyrinth as a kid and about 10 years ago ordered one online...I got to the point where I could occasionally complete the maze with 2 balls going at once :)
 
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Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
I don't really understand, but it probably doesn't matter. The example is clear enough.

I'll definitely be interested in whether wild or someone can code an FP version of Rat Race, or maybe some other type of maze game.

Projects like these are kind of a personal favorite. This was the last significant project of mine when I was still working in VP:
@Ike Savage
I'll see if I can figure how tp run vp again and try you billiard engine...if you would like to try one with Bam, I know some tricks :)
For instance I can code a pool cue to collide with cue ball

Bam recently enabled movement of physical objects on table and anywhere in gamesroom and they retain their physics and collision properties (with the exception of flippers)
Herr is another proof of concept on a hockey game
 
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Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
Site Supporters
Wow, that's amazing. With VP, that would require an agonising number of dropwalls and extra code to coordinate the whole thing. oO

Btw, posts have been split. Feel free to edit the thread title & prefix (currently "flipperless") however you lke.
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Ok here is a WIP of a simple Brio Labyrinth...still needs some tweaking but it works quite nicely

I will try a more difficult one and then talk to rav about expanding the virtual desktops so I could have several to play in the same "Table"

insert coin and start game like a normal table...
use Arrow Keys to tip table and you can use nudge keys as welll
Very simple
 

Ike Savage

Froggy like robot
Staff member
Site Supporters
@Ike Savage

I don't know if I'm wrong, but there is only "Rom"....the table vp8?
When you first click on that link, hiit the orange "Download" box in upper right. That''s a zip that contains the table.

Then follow the ROM liink and do the same thing. Always leave the ROM zipped up.

If you've never set up VP with pinMAME before, you're going to want to read one of the guides, either here or really anywhere online. It's not particularly complicated, but a guide will help you understand how the two parts work together.

If you've set up MAME before to play video games, that should help you understand how ROMs work.
 
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Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Ok
Here is a little update
1. Better alignment and color of holes
2. Bigger Box
3. Limited tipping to 15 degrees in all axes

4. I increased the sensitivity quite a bit and added an offsetting tip function if you press "B" while tipping table
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
@Ike Savage @Gimli
When you first click on that link, hiit the orange "Download" box in upper right. That''s a zip that contains the table.

I hadn't noticed that it was at the top right ..... ok, seen it, and tried it, it's nice as a game, obviously it's another game system but intriguing...very nice!

ok ... here's the biggest problem (always the same unfortunately when I have to convert a game vp / vpx_to fp / bam .... THE SOUND

I would like to avoid recording the sounds with a video player, as I did for Charlie's Angel .... it was not difficult because there are very few sounds and that for another I could choose, playing with the piloted ball(wiht mouse), which in vpx is already activated. .... but in vp8, there isn't ... but I don't think it's a problem.

for some of my tables I asked Kiwi for help, a vpf user, who somehow knows how to insert (via the "C" key) the piloted shoulder (using the freaccia keys) ....
now I don't know if it can be added in vp8, but also I would like to avoid asking him, so here, there are some:
1)extract sounds
2)insert (if possible in vp8) the piloted ball

in the meantime, I spent a few hours last night looking for something better than what I saw on the internet, regarding the Rat-Race cabinet .... I found something, but not very useful....
because I'm going to build a cab in 3d model (for what i know how to do) I don't like to see only the playfield of the game ..... so if someone has some good pics of the cab, to try to take the textures ... .would be great

I have several that I could use, maybe someone could have or find better than mine, please let me know and see .
I see if in the late evening I can put some photos of the model
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
The sound seems very basic and boring :)
We like can get them from the ROM ? I forget how , but could look into it.
We may decide to add our own stuff ?
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
@Gimli
Yes i saw everything on youtube (very little)... but,would you like other sounds? and not the original ones?I would say before making the table with the original ones, then we could replace them later.... but it's just my opinion....because we have to understand how the game works, and what sound a certain action reproduces (trigger, light, wall..ect).....and only by playing with vp8 is it possible

yes I would like the sounds from the rom, because recording is very complicated, but not from the youtube videos, (impossible for me, they would be out of the sounds in common with other sounds) but from the game itself of vp8, but it is a very ugly and long job
 
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