Achieving Multiball on Black's VP8 BK2K

[GSGregg]

Okay---first, thanks to Patch, sleepy and faralos for their responses to my Processing Screenshots thread; now the reason for it all. Black Knight 2000 is a popular table that gets mentioned pretty often, and I finally decided to check it out. Lord Hiryu's 4-3 is the VP9 currently supported by PINemHi Leaderboard, but it's so fast that I would flip and hear the bonus tallying---where did the ball go, and where did it come out on its way to the drain? (I have no recollection of playing this one back 'in the day' and therefore have zero knowledge of the board)

So I looked for a slower version to 'learn' on and picked this VP8 which, as it turns out, is no snail in its own right; flippers and slings are strong, but the ball does 'float' more if it hasn't been whacked, giving me a chance to absorb what isn't easily discernable from the Editor image. So, to the problem:

http://www.pinballnirvana.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5852&d=1368545476

The first ball shot into the lock area comes to rest against, and surrounded on three sides by, the Top Playfield Wall; it also rests on (or just below?) Trigger 36. The second ball shot to the lock, however, fails to come to rest against the first ball and instead falls off to the left and disappears, presumably under the top surface(?) of the Wall. The third ball to the lock does likewise; after contacting the first ball, it falls off to the left and joins the second ball, leaving only one ball in the lock with no other balls available (unless you want to hit "B" and "Y").

I've read of similar problems for which the remedy seemed to be the addition of a wall, but I fail to see where an additional wall could go or why the existing wall is ineffective. Could this be some weird collidability issue related to ball-through-flipper, etc.? I'm aware that the progression to VP9 has probably circumvented this , but it's oh-so-intriguing. For players who insist on proceeding, the "T" key no longer tilts, although it does still slam, and you can bounce one ball at a time up to the ramp that delivers the ball to the right inlane. But, it's "just not the same".

Cheers

 

[Itchigo]

I'm not really sure here, it doesn't look too wide for that to happen. You could make an invisible wall, just in case.

 

[faralos]

you are playing it in vp8 yes?
you can't play many tables in vp9 that were made with vp8
as the ball is larger in vp9 and the kickers and triggers
may not register a ball hit when played in vp9

 

[GSGregg]

You could make an invisible wall, just in case.

But, wouldn't a wall I make (visible or not) be just as permeable(?) as the existing, TopPlayfieldWall? Also, since a wall starts as a circle with control points for determining shape, is the finished wall considered to be a solid block of material, or just a hollow..... well,..... bubble?

you are playing it in vp8 yes?
...the ball is larger in vp9 and the kickers and triggers
may not register a ball hit when played in vp9

Right.....VP8's ball is 35 units and VP9's is 50, correct? Some things I noticed about this while doing simple math in my head:

The lock is ~54.06 units wide at entry, and tapers slightly to ~53.52 at the bottom; big enough for a VP9 ball, but not big enough to let a VP8 ball 'go around' and get lost.

The Triggers are spaced 54.5 units apart, which seems pretty wide for 35-unit ball stacking; I guess even non-centered contact is sufficient.

There is a Hidden Kicker ("BallLockSlowdown")above the lock entry, so there would seem to be no benefit to, say, adding wall height. What happens is, a ball is slowed before entering the lock and just casually drops to the end of the hall. The next ball likewise just casually drops and makes brief contact with the first ball, then slowly slips to the outside, appearing to go both around and below the first ball. (AHA! The wall must be hollow; that's where the balls are hiding!) The third ball does what the second one did, and the game looks around, like, "now what?"

After 3:00 AM; must be time for dinner. Thanks, folks!

 

[bob]

It sounds like it would be easier for us to teach you how to slow down the newest version of BK2000. Is it just the speed of the ball or does the table not work properly for you.

Lower the Slope and or the Gravity settings to slow the ball down.

 

[Itchigo]

But, wouldn't a wall I make (visible or not) be just as permeable(?) as the existing, TopPlayfieldWall? Also, since a wall starts as a circle with control points for determining shape, is the finished wall considered to be a solid block of material, or just a hollow..... well,..... bubble?


Right.....VP8's ball is 35 units and VP9's is 50, correct? Some things I noticed about this while doing simple math in my head:

A wall is a solid block. If you check "collideable" it won't be permeable.

I believe vp9's ball is 50, and vp8's is 45, I could be wrong.

 

[GSGregg]

bob; The Lord Hiryu table is apparently working fine; it's just lickety-split fast. The first few balls I 'lost' had, it turns out, hit the 'U-Turn' lane directly off hard flips---and I didn't know about that lane or where/how it's laid out. Eventually I'll know where all of the passages start and stop, and I won't have to spend so much energy trying to SEE the ball. As far as slowing it down is concerned, I thought about trying that, but it wouldn't be in keeping with the 'Play it as you got it' spirit of the High Score Topic! or PINemHi Leaderboard. Thanks for the idea, though.

Itchigo; Did a little tutorial-diving:

Collidable – toggles whether the wall interacts with the ball or not. If set to not
collidable then the wall will be rendered in the VP player but will have no influence
on the ball, and no hit events or slingshots will be able to fire.

There is no 'Collidable' checkbox in the VP8 Editor; was this added to VP9 because of this problem?, or was collidability simply assumed in VP8.

This ball behavior seems similar to what happens when attempts are made to trap two VP8 balls on the same flipper; two balls can come down an inlane together, fine, but as soon as one is in contact with the flipper, contact by the second ball is guaranteed to send one of them melting through to its doom.

Cheers (*hic*)

 

[Itchigo]

To be honest, I never really went through the vp8 editor to build, because it was before my time. When I started with vp I think it was about 9.01 or 9.02, and even then, I had no clue on how to build until about 9.07.

It is true to have a "hit" event- to make it play a sound or score, it has to be set to collideable.

 

[GSGregg]

So, a wall doesn't have to be collidable to physically restrain a ball? (Hi, Tim!)

 

[faralos]

a wall must be set to be collidable to have a hit event occur to it
otherwise the balls will roll right thru it
and walls start out as blocks not round posts
and no vp8 does NOT have the collidable option at all
that was added with vp9
so any table made prior to vp9 should be modded with vp9
in case it has non collidable walls in it

 

[GSGregg]

a wall must be set to be collidable to have a hit event occur to it
otherwise the balls will roll right thru it
and walls start out as blocks not round posts

Sorry.....I just went by the icon in the VP8 Editor.

and no vp8 does NOT have the collidable option at all
that was added with vp9
so any table made prior to vp9 should be modded with vp9
in case it has non collidable walls in it

Hmmmm.....I wonder, then, how any ball was ever stopped, held, or guided by a wall.....
thanks, though; that makes sense.

 

[Itchigo]

So, a wall doesn't have to be collidable to physically restrain a ball? (Hi, Tim!)

Yes it does. Not collideable will pass through the wall.
Hi Gregg!

 

[GSGregg]

So, it's the collidability OPTION that was absent in VP8, and not the actual state?

 

[Itchigo]

From what I just looked at, I'd say yes. I just opened vp8, and I saw no checkbox. I also saw no option for custom lights either.

 

[faralos]

So, it's the collidability OPTION that was absent in VP8, and not the actual state?

correct when using vp8 all walls were set to be collidable
that means any ball hitting it would actually hit it and not go thru it
the option for NON collidable wasn't put in until vp9
but all the walls in vp8 were set to be solid

 

[sleepy]

Whoah. You don't need to disgrace yourself by adding Walls to the PINemHigh version that do not belong here.

First rule. Don't shoot for the U-Turn with direct shots. Catch the ball with an Up Flipper and then Hit the U-Turn with a slow Backflip.
Example: Hit the right side of the U-Turn entrance with a backflip from the Right Flipper.

Learn to nudge, and expect to nudge anytime that ball is likely headed toward the center outhole between the Flippers.

Finally, main shot is the left ramp to the top deck. When the ball runs across or through the W.A.R. zone and is about to roll down to the main Flippers on the right side of the table, simply hold the Right Flipper Up. Hold it there. Keep it up.
After the ball is caught and it stops moving on the Right Flipper and is absolutely motionless (Keep it Up!),...Then release the Flipper and shoot for the left side Ramp Again and Again and Again and Again and...

...and use the Flipper buttons to cycle the WAR Rollover letters to complete "WAR" which will light the left Ramp for Big Points.

 

[sleepy]

About that Option being missing in earlier versions,
that is because in the first Visual Pinball Dogfood releases,
the ball almost Always passed through the Walls and Ramps,
as if it were Freddy Kruger.

So that part was already taken care of.

 

[GSGregg]

Whoah. You don't need to disgrace yourself by adding Walls to the PINemHigh version that do not belong here.

I have no such intention, sir! I did mention, did I not, that the LH table is working fine? It's just too fast for a board with which I'm totally unfamiliar. The bit about adding walls pertains just to the VP8 table and keeping locked balls in the Lock where they belong. Mostly curiosity.

First rule. Don't shoot for the U-Turn with direct shots.

Agreed; be assured that those shots were kneejerk coincidences, although I will work on them if the U-turn becomes lucrative at some point (Don't know the Rules very well, yet).

Finally, main shot is the left ramp to the top deck.

Yep; the Skyway.....at least it has a nice, wide entry.

Haven't had a lot of time the last few days, but after some more research I'll take another shot at the 'official' table. Thanks for the tips.

GSG

 

[sleepy]

Well, unless DNA updated that table to a newer version...

 

[GSGregg]

Well, Lord Hiryu's table, released Mar 10, 2010 in 4:3 and FS, has been in the PINemHi gamelist since PeH v1.5; apparently it'll be around a bit longer, too, because I found no mention of a 9.1.4+ version or WIP.

On a whim, I went to irpinball and found Black's Beta 5 (Dec 22, 2001---did VP even have version numbers then?) and downloaded it; ball behavior in the Lock is flawless! Wonder what 'broke' between Beta 5 and version 1.0.....

 

[sleepy]

Black probably did the construction differently.

In the early days the versions were experimental due to Major Bugs,
and so Visual Pinball Beta versions were named Dogfood 2, Dogfood 3, and so on.
Back then as a WIP, the Dogfood releases were the norm.
If the version then received some limited or unstable fixes, it was then released as
Visual Pinball Tech Beta, to signify the good intent, if not the actual result.

I don't think we saw a Visual Pinball Alpha release until VP 6.

 

[Isaac Sauvage]

Lower the Slope and or the Gravity settings to slow the ball down.

you seem like a pleasant young bot, but bob never added that face.


SIMON DIDN'T SAY