Help BAM Bugs involving the Miniplayfield

[Wecoc]

I've been doing some tests, and I've found some oddities... I haven't really looked into MP until now, so I don't know if I'm messing something up or if these are well-known bugs.

First, I found a bug involving the Miniplayfield and Wire ramps. I don't know if it's well-known or if it's something to do with my configuration, but I can't find a simple explanation on what's going on here. I'm using BAM v1.5-373 with no extra plugins (I checked, and it also happens in v1.5-365)

Here's the problem; I put some objects including a Wire ramp somewhere in the playfield, and I create a Miniplayfield that completely covers them.



Then I close the window, put that in the code and for some reason, the wire is appearing completely far out of reach. Even the angle is wrong



But here's the catch; if I close the editor and open Future Pinball again to load the game, the wire's placed correctly again. It only happens when I close the game back to the editor and then load the game again; so my theory is that when closing the game some temporary parameter is being written incorrectly In fact, that position and angle look suspiciously close to the table's initial "spot" before the camera pans in.

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That's the first bug I found, but I also found another one, this one much easier to explain.
If you create a Miniplayfield with PhysicsMove = True that contains a Playfield with an EM-Kicker, the EM-Kicker moves double. I think it's reading it as not being part of the Playfield.



If I find more things, I'll post them. Many BAM features are still strangely new to me.

 

[TerryRed]

@Wecoc

My experience using MP's.... is... alot. I use them in almost everything I do for many purposes.


Regarding wire ramps or ramps. If they are captured correctly in a miniplayfield and moved correctly, and that info is added in script, they should work correctly IF you save the table, then close FP and reload. They will always work when FP is freshly loaded and you simply load your table and start it like normal.

However, anytime a ramp or wire ramp is used in a miniplayfield like that, once you exit FP back to the editor, if you try to load / start the table again without closing FP first, then you'll either see the ramps in the MP not be visible at all (what happens with me on Silent Hill) but they'll still actually work (the ball rolls on them like normal).... or something funky may happen.


Anytime you are doing anything in a MP that involves a "physics move", its a golden rule to completely close FP when exiting before reloading the table again to prevent oddities.


As for the EM kicker / kicker.... simply put, there are limitations with what items can be used in a MP, especially those that have more complex collider operations. I've found the following items can't be used in a "physics move" in a MP correctly as their physics / colliders won't translate correctly:

- kickers
- em kickers
- flippers
- diverters
- slingshots
- roto targets
- vari-targets

There may be more, but I know those won't work correctly. There are some others that may not move correctly like Gas Segments displays, etc.

Also... NEVER change the scale of a MP that uses a "physics move". That for sure WILL cause odd things to happen, and may even cause a crash! Keep those MP's at a scale of 1.0 at all times.

When going back to the BAM MP menu, a previously working MP with physics move might disable the physics in that MP as soon as you go into it's MP menu. This may be on purpose to prevent crashes. If you exit FP and reload, it will still work fine.


That said, a simple reprojection move (not physics move) may work fine with the above items "possibly", as they are not having their position or physics changed at all, as they are still working in their original position.


Things that I know for sure work fine with a "physics move":

- bumpers
- targets
- drop targets
- popups
- walls
- pegs
- surfaces
- dmd
- overlays
- light, flashers, bulbs, toys, etc
- wire ramps, ramps
- triggers
- rubbers
- pretty much anything that doesn't use its own complex collider that moves



I use miniplayfields to combine multiple things together in Silent Hill. I'll take different wire ramps / ramps and place them on the playfield. I'll replace the entire upper 1/3 of the playfield with other complete playfields assemblies. I add in multiple other MP's with their own collidable items and other movable items within them that all work on the playfield correctly with their physics and lighting, etc. This includes FP items and BAM models with animation, etc.




The simplest rule is... if in doubt... save your MP changes to script, close FP and reload, and they should work correctly. Just keep in mind the types of items that can't be used in a "physics move".

 

[Wecoc]

then you'll either see the ramps in the MP not be visible at all (what happens with me on Silent Hill) but they'll still actually work (the ball rolls on them like normal).... or something funky may happen

Yes, that's what I noticed as well. The ramps are not following the camera anymore, and since the game starts with that open camera into the table, it means you won't see them because they're actually still further back, obscured by the cabinet.

Things that I know for sure work fine with a "physics move": (...) dmd (...) pretty much anything that doesn't use its own complex collider that moves

Great, I assumed DMD wouldn't be possible since I couldn't move around a Gas segment display placed over a Surface.

Just keep in mind the types of items that can't be used in a "physics move".

It's a very limiting list and it kinda ruins my plans, but I think there are still a couple of interesting things I can do with these

 

[madmrmax]

Yes, that's what I noticed as well. The ramps are not following the camera anymore, and since the game starts with that open camera into the table, it means you won't see them because they're actually still further back, obscured by the cabinet.



Great, I assumed DMD wouldn't be possible since I couldn't move around a Gas segment display placed over a Surface.



It's a very limiting list and it kinda ruins my plans, but I think there are still a couple of interesting things I can do with these

Are these considered just "bugs" that can be fixed by Ravarcade, or is it more complexities and what we have is the best it's going to get due to trying to make FP do too much?

@TerryRed since you work alot with MPs, have you already made comments to Ravarcade about the limitations/issues/bugs?

 

[TerryRed]

Long ago, I think myself and Gimli asked about the limitations with some things in a MP... but that was before they were being used alot... so I can't remember what I've brought up since then.

I think the wireramps not showing up in a MP when exiting to the editor and reloading the table (without closing FP), is most likely a bug.

The list of items that won't work correctly with a "physics move" MP I don't think is a bug, and is intentional. It's just that they use more complex functions and movable colliders, so to make them work completely in a "physics move" MP would be much more difficult. I hate math. :)

Myself, I've learned to get around some of the limitations by using toys to act like other items, and then use simple walls, surfaces, magnets, etc to mimic their normal behavior.


Part of what I've been doing with Silent Hill was removing "kickers" from the areas that had swappable upper playfields. I had them placed in strategic spots originally that would work for multiple playfields, but this was still limiting for what I wanted... so I just use pretend VUKs, and use invisible walls to hold the ball, and magnets to kick the ball up into the wire ramps. Same can be done for other things like rotary targets, em kickers, var-tagets, etc. No different than faking spinners using @Wecoc 's excellent example. Fake it until you make it. How it works doesn't matter, as long as it functions the same and looks close enough in the end.


@ravarcade

Could you possibly elaborate on our findings and can clarify the limitations of what items work correctly when using MP's with "physics move", as I listed here?

Help - BAM - Bugs involving the Miniplayfield

I've been doing some tests, and I've found some oddities... I haven't really looked into MP until now, so I don't know if I'm messing something up or if these are well-known bugs. First, I found a bug involving the Miniplayfield and Wire ramps. I don't know if it's well-known or if it's...

pinballnirvana.com

 

[TerryRed]

Here is some examples of how the MP works in my (work in progress) Silent Hill.

The top 3rd of the playfield has at least 3 different MP's combined. The ramps swap in and out.... the entire upper 3rd will swap out... and the round upper center (where the bumpers are) has two different rotating MP's. Then there are different things like monsters and combat that also uses multiple MP's.


View attachment sh - mp demos.mp4


Note: this is being completely rebuilt (again) for many different playfields, and functions... so its a little messy in that some models are in places they shouldn't be, some are missing, the art is all old (or just placeholders), and some things will render through where they shouldn't. I'm aware of all of it. This is a very large and complex build, so I won't finish certain aspects until other significant portions are done.

 

[TerryRed]

@Wecoc @ravarcade

I can also confirm what Wecoc was seeing. If I run my table that repositions the ramps and wireramps with a MP... then I exit back to the FP editor.... then run the table again (without closing FP), the ramps still work (physics / collisions)... but the wire ramps are visually located far behind the cabinet.