Bally Solved Capt. Fantastic and The Brown Dirt Cowboy (Bally, 1976) extra ball will not shut off

[radar]

I have been able to repair all of my problems except one, the extra ball will be awarded correctly but after you play your extra ball the coil stays energized and you get unlimited extra balls,I have had some success using my schematic to guide me in the right direction but this one has me stumped. I looks to be tied to the ball index relay,outhole relay of course,possibly a score motor operated switch and the alternator relay. Am I right to assume that the power to the extra ball relay is to be switched off by another relay or switch? thanks a lot it has been really fun tracing down the root of these problems but this one has me worn out for today.

 

[pinballdaveh]

unlimited extra balls isnt that like a pinball nirvana dream? i think i know the answer to this problem, but i dont want to hog all the action. if nobody else has a guess then i will tell you mine.

 

[Coil_Smoke]

...???

 

[Coil_Smoke]

...And The Answer Is...?

unlimited extra balls isnt that like a pinball nirvana dream? i think i know the answer to this problem, but i dont want to hog all the action. if nobody else has a guess then i will tell you mine.

Well, I for one am still waiting "For The Other Shoe To Drop" here....

 

[radar]

Believe me your not the only one waiting on that shoe!

 

[pinballdaveh]

hi all after looking at the schematic i see that the extra ball relay is held in by 2 seperate switches on the outhole relay and a switch on a score motor cam. both bally and williams score motors are similar in design with multiple cams. the first cam next to the motor is the index cam. its low spots or dwells are at 180 and 360 . each full rev of the cam is 2 cycles. the top stack switch on this cam is called the motor run out switch. it keeps the motor running until a low dwell is found. you can gently push down on the top blade of the switch to start motor turning.to check contacts on outhole relay norm. closed switches, slip a piece of paper in between both sets of contacts, and push motor run out switch and see if extra ball relay releases. if it does chances are the outhole relay nc contacts are not opening. gap switches properly.

 

[radar]

Thank you for your reply pinballdaveh, I could not see any problem with the switches in the outhole relay and I slipped the paper in the normally closed switches and put the score motor through several revs but extra ball stays lit but I noticed that the ball index relay next to it was energized and if I manually DE-energized it and energized the outhole relay the extra ball lights go out and extra ball relay is DE-energized.Also I just noticed that if I start a new game the machine resets everything and the ball count unit resets to the ball one rivet but it kicks it up to ball two to start the game.Again if I DE-energize the ball index relay and push the start button it resets to ball one. Thanks again for your help here.:idea:

 

[pinballdaveh]

when does the ball index relay pull in ? when you turn machine on ? during the reset ? does it pull in before you shoot the ball ? it should only pull in after you score points on each ball or tilt. if it pulled in during reset the ball counter will go to ball 2. once the ball index relay is pulled in when does it release ?

 

[radar]

Hi Pinballdaveh, the index relay pulls in right at the end of the reset about the time the score reels stop resetting. If I just turn the game on the index relay is at rest. It pulls in before I have a chance to shoot a ball. As you say it pulls on and the ball counter moves to ball two. the index relay never releases untill I hit game over. It does make a real quick twitch toward resting when the ball would be kicked to the plunger between each ball but it stays engaged untill the game over light is on and then it returns to rest.

 

[pinballdaveh]

hi all thank you for the extra info it helped a lot. the ball index is pulsed by the 10 point, 100 point, and 1000 point relays in head of machine. 1 normally open switch for each relay. a w br (white/ brown i guess} wire will be at each switch. the 3 switches are wired in parallel, so any of the switches will pull in the ball index relay. check for those switched closed or a solder splash across switches or wires. one of those switches is causing the ball index to stay pulled in causing this problem. re-gap switch if needed.

 

[radar]

I did see the 10, 100, 1000 tied to the index relay on the schematic and checked them the other day but I went back and looked them over really good again and could not see any closed switches or shorts,I unplugged the jones plugs to the head and the old index relay stayed pulled in so that seems to tell me the problem must be downstream from the jones plugs or the plug itself? thanks again for the great info.

 

[pinballdaveh]

that was a good idea with removing the jones plug. take it a step further by starting a new game , remove male jones plug from head(the one with the white/brown wire in it) , manually de-energize the ball index relay. the relay should stay open now. plugging the jones plug back in pulls the ball index relay back in. if this is all correct the short with the white/brown wire is in the head. check the female jones plugs for solder splashes or shorts. un solder the white/brown wire from each scoring relay may help find short. if you have a dmm you can test for the short using the resistance audible or diode range, un plug machine and head male jones plugs and test from white/brown wire to yellow common on the female jones plug. a audible sound means that there is still a short.

 

[radar]

Hello there,I started a new game and removed the male plug with the white/brown and could not get the index relay to stay open, it just pulls back in. I tried all three jones plugs individually to make sure I found the right wire with no change,relay stays pulled in. I then pulled the plug and checked the white/brown and the yellow on that female connector and had no audible with my DMM. does this rule out the head as the source of the short? :)

 

[pinballdaveh]

yes that rules out the head as the short. un-solder the white/brown wire(s)(keep soldered together if 2 wires) from the tilt relay switch, move wire away from relay. install all jones plugs , turn machine on , and start new game . see if machine is working correctly now, if it does , the normally open tilt relay switch that the wire came off from is closed or shorted, keeping the ball index relay pulled in. clear short and re-solder wire.

 

[radar]

Hey pinballdaveh here is where I try to put into words how much I thank you for all your patient help on this old pin, You nailed it on the tilt relay. I would swear I looked that over a dozen times because I could see it involved on the schematics but I guess it took me taking the table off the machine to unsolder those wires to really be able to get my head in there and see up close with my vision these days that the switch you referenced was closed when it should be open. That fixed the index relay locking in and a few adjustments and cleaning on the outhole relay fixed all extra ball problems. Really simple things that I should have caught but I learned a ton and had mostly fun doing it. I will know alot better next time how to go about things,mostly take the table off to get a good look at those relays that are harder to see. AGAIN THANKS