Comments on FizX Lite table.

[FireDragon76]

I have been fooling around with Bally's Star Trek table. I have played it in real life. I actually think the default physics are not bad at simulating this table (except for the flippers, which are just bad), but I wanted to try out FizX Lite. Much as I try, the slingshots don't seem quite right. They seem underpowered. The real table has slingshots that tend to toss the ball towards the outlanes, just as it does in default physics. Also, the bumpers have an annoying habit of returning the ball straight to a saucer at the top, over and over (which doesn't happen with the regular 1.0 physics.

I have attached the table. Try it out and comment on it, and let me know what I could do to improve it.

 

[Popotte]

Just one question: it's for your personnal use or not?

 

[TerryRed]

I don't see any diverters for the slings. These are needed (along with the correct commands) when adding FizX. Not sure beyond that regarding the bumpers (I replace the bumpers when using the full FizX update... not sure about the Lite version).

 

[FireDragon76]

OK, I must have gotten the files mixed up. This one has diverters.

 

[GeorgeH]

Did you get permission from Popotte to update this table?

 

[FireDragon76]

Just one question: it's for your personnal use or not?

It's for personal use.


Edit: I found some slingshot subroutines that were not filled out as per GeorgeH's instructions, so I fixed it. The slingshots are still not performing like I would expect on the real table. The slingshot just fires off, but there is no force behind it, it's like the ball is bouncing against a rubber wall.

' --------------------- Rubbers section -------------------------------
'
Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit():   RubberHit: LeftSlingshotRubber.SolenoidOff : LeftSlingshotRubber.SolenoidPulse: End Sub
Sub RightSlingshotRubber_Hit():  RubberHit: RightSlingshotRubber.SolenoidOff : RightSlingshotRubber.SolenoidPulse: End Sub
Sub DTRubber_Hit():    RubberHit: End Sub
Sub RightRubber_Hit(): RubberHit: End Sub
Sub KRubber_Hit():     RubberHit: End Sub

 

[GeorgeH]

It looks like you changed the name of the slings which is ok but you didn't add the code I described. The colons are the same as a hard return and it is easier to add the new code if you convert it:

Original Code:

Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit():   RubberHit: End Sub

Convert colons to hard returns:

Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit()
RubberHit
End Sub

Add new code:

Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit()
' FizX Lite Edition Start - Add these two lines of code at the very beginning of the subroutine for the left slingshot.  You
' should be able to find the subroutine for the left slingshot by searching the script for "Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit".  If
' you don't find it, refer to the tutorial.

    LeftSlingshotRubber.SolenoidOff
    If xBAM.Ball.HitSpeed < SlingshotThreshold * 100 Then Exit Sub ' FizX - Slingshot Treshold. Needed to update your table for treshold
' FizX Lite Edition End

RubberHit

' FizX Lite Edition Start - Add these three lines of code at the very end of the subroutine for the left slingshot. 
    SlingDiverter1.SolenoidPulse    ' FizX
    SlingDiverter2.SolenoidPulse    ' FizX
    LeftSlingshotRubber.SolenoidPulse ' FizX - needs to be last line of SUB. Needed to update your table for treshold
' FizX Lite Edition End

End Sub

Follow the directions for the other sling.

Also, you have changed the XML for the slingshots. All the values should be 0. If you want to change the strength of the slings, you need to change the omega for the diverters.

I didn't include directions for adding bumpers in FizX Lite but they seem to perform as well as can be expected since you didn't add the FizX bumper base although I do see the FizX skirt.

 

[FireDragon76]

It looks like you changed the name of the slings which is ok but you didn't add the code I described. The colons are the same as a hard return and it is easier to add the new code if you convert it:

Original Code:

Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit():   RubberHit: End Sub

Convert colons to hard returns:

Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit()
RubberHit
End Sub

Add new code:

Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit()
' FizX Lite Edition Start - Add these two lines of code at the very beginning of the subroutine for the left slingshot.  You
' should be able to find the subroutine for the left slingshot by searching the script for "Sub LeftSlingshotRubber_Hit".  If
' you don't find it, refer to the tutorial.

    LeftSlingshotRubber.SolenoidOff
    If xBAM.Ball.HitSpeed < SlingshotThreshold * 100 Then Exit Sub ' FizX - Slingshot Treshold. Needed to update your table for treshold
' FizX Lite Edition End

RubberHit

' FizX Lite Edition Start - Add these three lines of code at the very end of the subroutine for the left slingshot.
    SlingDiverter1.SolenoidPulse    ' FizX
    SlingDiverter2.SolenoidPulse    ' FizX
    LeftSlingshotRubber.SolenoidPulse ' FizX - needs to be last line of SUB. Needed to update your table for treshold
' FizX Lite Edition End

End Sub

Follow the directions for the other sling.

Also, you have changed the XML for the slingshots. All the values should be 0. If you want to change the strength of the slings, you need to change the omega for the diverters.

I didn't include directions for adding bumpers in FizX Lite but they seem to perform as well as can be expected since you didn't add the FizX bumper base although I do see the FizX skirt.

Thanks for the explanation. It helped me understand how the slingshot code is supposed to work. The slingshots work fine now.

I am mostly interested in FizX Lite because the default flipper ball handling is so poor. The default slingshots are not bad (a similar technique was used on Pro Pinball series), and the bumpers are OK, so I was experimenting with just using the default slingshot behavior. For whatever reason, I found that the bumpers were unusable with the FizX Lite code without using the T2v3 bases. With the updated bases from the FizX pack, they behave as they should. Now I just need to find a good transparent dirt/scratch texture to put on the bumper skirts.

The Pinmech hit-sound code also is a nice touch, especially on an older table that doesn't have alot of sound of its own.

 

[GeorgeH]

Thanks for the explanation. It helped me understand how the slingshot code is supposed to work. The slingshots work fine now.

I am mostly interested in FizX Lite because the default flipper ball handling is so poor. The default slingshots are not bad (a similar technique was used on Pro Pinball series), and the bumpers are OK, so I was experimenting with just using the default slingshot behavior. For whatever reason, I found that the bumpers were unusable with the FizX Lite code without using the T2v3 bases. With the updated bases from the FizX pack, they behave as they should. Now I just need to find a good transparent dirt/scratch texture to put on the bumper skirts.

The Pinmech hit-sound code also is a nice touch, especially on an older table that doesn't have alot of sound of its own.

So you are not adding FizX at all? The ball seems to float to me. Slamt1lt created a version of this table.

 

[FireDragon76]

So you are not adding FizX at all? The ball seems to float to me. Slamt1lt created a version of this table.

FizX Lite, for the moment.

I used a playfield tilt of 4.5 degrees. Popette used 4 degrees for Bally's Wizard adapted to FizX, which is another 70's table. Most real machines in the 70's were setup for for 6-7 degrees.

The real Star Trek table I played on was not particular fast, the challenge came from keeping the ball out of the outlanes, similar to Wizard, as the slingshots were aggressive at throwing the ball into them. I might tinker with resetting the kickers and experimenting with the tilt. Adjusting the tilt first seems the way to go. It might explain why the bumpers seem to send the ball into the upper saucer over and over.

 

[Popotte]

...
I used a playfield tilt of 4.5 degrees. Popette used 4 degrees for Bally's Wizard adapted to FizX, which is another 70's table. Most real machines in the 70's were setup for for 6-7 degrees.
...

Not really. For all the 70's Gottlieb table


OK, coin operators increased the slope, but not up to 6-7 degrees...

 

[FireDragon76]

Not really. For all the 70's Gottlieb table
View attachment 37226

OK, coin operators increased the slope, but not up to 6-7 degrees...

Four is probably right for EM machines, though I have read that EIght Ball Deluxe's recommended setup is around six degrees. Old machines I played on do feel "floaty" as compared to more modern pinballs. I can remember playing Theater of Magic back in the 90's and being shocked at how fast it was (the operator probably had it cranked up, that became a fad for a while in the late 90's, perhaps to squeeze coins out of a public that was becoming increasing distracted by Nintendo and Sony?). The Pro-Pinball series used a default setup of six degrees for their model, and that seems about right.

A tell-tale sign that the till is too high: it's often difficult to make certain ramp shots. The only shots that should need a backhand are off-angle.

 

[GeorgeH]

FizX Lite, for the moment.

I used a playfield tilt of 4.5 degrees. Popette used 4 degrees for Bally's Wizard adapted to FizX, which is another 70's table. Most real machines in the 70's were setup for for 6-7 degrees.

The real Star Trek table I played on was not particular fast, the challenge came from keeping the ball out of the outlanes, similar to Wizard, as the slingshots were aggressive at throwing the ball into them. I might tinker with resetting the kickers and experimenting with the tilt. Adjusting the tilt first seems the way to go. It might explain why the bumpers seem to send the ball into the upper saucer over and over.

I asked because your last posting is the original table.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not really. For all the 70's Gottlieb table
View attachment 37226

OK, coin operators increased the slope, but not up to 6-7 degrees...

I tried turning down the slope on your Big Indian to 3.5 degrees, and the physics still seemed OK. The FizX adaptation of Avatar uses an angle of 5.3 degrees with a 1K ball, and that's emulating a modern table that's meant to be setup to around six or seven degrees.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think older tables like this could benefit from full FizX. The lack of proper rubber hit sounds is noticeable. I think that would be the final step in what I'd do with this table. Maybe Popotte could work on this table in the future.

Incidentally, Bally's Star Trek is the Eighth best selling pinball table of all time.