Community complaints, ideas and potential improvements

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Moderation note: This worthy side-discussion split from the Ghostbusters WIP thread. --Ike


@TerryRed
I would not have answered you (I replicated your eulogy in pinsim), but I saw that you also opened your eulogy here ... well

I can't hold back, I know, it doesn't help my sympathy .... but that doesn't stop me from saying what I think .... and if I were just a spectator, I wouldn't care and don't pay attention to it,but I'm not a spectator, but some of your affirmations make me boil my blood, I ask your forgiveness if I'm hard,but your comment on PinSim, not to mention what you said to George, in another context, upsets me deeply , makes me nervous, it seems that only the tables of smoke or another big one are deserving of your appreciation? and the other tables for you, do they suck?

I didn't care if you were another member, or another user, but I consider you a companion, a hobby friend, even if we have never collaborated, see your appreciation for a particular table, and almost never a appreciation for one of my tables, this makes my blood boil

I see tables mod..re-mod, re-re-re-mod, receiving a lot of appreciation, or comments, and very few for my who build tables like me, apart from some users interested only for that table ....
... this is one of the reasons why I no longer waste time inserting new projects or another here, and not continuing with the ones I opened.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TerryRed

Pinball Master
@TerryRed
I would not have answered you (I replicated your eulogy in pinsim), but I saw that you also opened your eulogy here ... well

I can't hold back, I know, it doesn't help my sympathy .... but that doesn't stop me from saying what I think .... and if I were just a spectator, I wouldn't care and don't pay attention to it,but I'm not a spectator, but some of your affirmations make me boil my blood, I ask your forgiveness if I'm hard,but your comment on PinSim, not to mention what you said to George, in another context, upsets me deeply , makes me nervous, it seems that only the tables of smoke or another big one are deserving of your appreciation? and the other tables for you, do they suck?

I didn't care if you were another member, or another user, but I consider you a companion, a hobby friend, even if we have never collaborated, see your appreciation for a particular table, and almost never a appreciation for one of my tables, this makes my blood boil

I see tables mod..re-mod, re-re-re-mod, receiving a lot of appreciation, or comments, and very few for my who build tables like me, apart from some users interested only for that table ....
... this is one of the reasons why I no longer waste time inserting new projects or another here, and not continuing with the ones I opened.

Woah... slow down there dude.

I don't know what I did to upset you. Let me make things clear. I don't see every table... every post... by every person. Nor do I post comments on every table ever released... in particular I rarely post at pinsimdb mainly because of the spam that is in the comments there. In fact... I only knew about this Ghostbusters table because someone else posted about it in a FB group and couldn't get it working. So I posted my findings here about it, since I saw no one has even mentioned the table. The comments at pinsimdb get flooded with spam and gopinball forums are almost not usable now.

Do you think I get comments or praise posted about everything I ever do by everyone in the FP community at pinsimdb or here.. or from you for that matter? Absolutely not, but that's ok. I don't take it personally as I know everyone has their own lives, or preferences for the tables they like and that is what draws their attention. There are many tables you work on that are great recreations that I never look at because they are not the type of table I normally play (older EMs,etc). Whereas others like original tables you make, I tend to take more interest in.

When I see a table or work done (in the time I have to see things, as family issues have taken up a lot of my time).. I do try to comment and give praise about it. That includes my comments about "your" very cool table Dragons Keep... or Nip It, etc:

Never once did I say that your tables "suck" or are no good. In fact I've directed people to your tables many times as great examples of what can be done with FP with an original table. Don't assume because I don't leave comments on all your tables... that it means I think badly of them. If that was the case... then I would be upset with half of the guys here as I don't get comments on everything I do either.

I've been very busy working non-stop on RetroFlair 2 for a long time... so I've not been very active in the forums much lately.... but your post has drawn attention to the fact that I could be more "active" here among the other posts and wips,etc.

Your work is excellent wild... don't let my lack of responses let you think otherwise.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
I imagine he used Pinball Browser to get the DMD images and some sounds.... like other older Stern tables on FP. Some things like music and other voice overs could also be ripped from the movie directly.
Ah wow, so that's it! You know, I only had a very brief encounter with Pinball Browser when "Fastdraw" mentioned it a few months ago. I'd never heard of it before.

So that answers a long-standing mystery for me about how people have been re-creating so many DMD-era games in FP. All you need is the ROM dump, I guess. Excellent!

@TerryRed
I would not have answered you (I replicated your eulogy in pinsim), but I saw that you also opened your eulogy here ... well

I can't hold back, I know, it doesn't help my sympathy .... but that doesn't stop me from saying what I think .... and if I were just a spectator, I wouldn't care and don't pay attention to it,but I'm not a spectator, but some of your affirmations make me boil my blood, I ask your forgiveness if I'm hard,but your comment on PinSim, not to mention what you said to George, in another context, upsets me deeply , makes me nervous, it seems that only the tables of smoke or another big one are deserving of your appreciation? and the other tables for you, do they suck?

I didn't care if you were another member, or another user, but I consider you a companion, a hobby friend, even if we have never collaborated, see your appreciation for a particular table, and almost never a appreciation for one of my tables, this makes my blood boil

I see tables mod..re-mod, re-re-re-mod, receiving a lot of appreciation, or comments, and very few for my who build tables like me, apart from some users interested only for that table ....
... this is one of the reasons why I no longer waste time inserting new projects or another here, and not continuing with the ones I opened.
"Eulogy"...?

Well, my personal take is that all you FP authors are under-thanked and under-appreciated. I also think that FP has some things working against it that VP doesn't have. For those reasons, I perceive the FP user-base as relatively scattered and underinformed about what's going on in the FP scene. To me, this is a shame.

For example, I think Black shutting down the original FP forums and then the GoPinball forums becoming overridden with spam has naturally made it harder for people to establish a 'ground zero.' That's in contrast with the way the new / old VPF forums have been a long-term home base for VP for almost twenty years.

Another example would be the terrible Wikipedia entry on FP, which is thoroughly outdated, and no doubt immediately turns away some virtual pinball fans curious about FP. Yet another example is the relatively poor flipper physics, which later became improved by BAM and various folks, and now Shiva / Blue looks like he's developing another major leap forward. But how many people really know about that stuff?

I've also suggested several times across various threads, conversations and staff discussions that we could all do some things to help fix the situation and spread the word, but like you, I've gotten an underwhelming amount of feedback and interest. Which is fine. But to me-- if a FP author (quite naturally) wants more feedback and appreciation, they need to recognise what the realities are about FP and be willing to help repair the situation.

IMO the FP scene needs someone to help out, in other words. Maybe an SEO expert, maybe someone to work on the terrible WP entry, maybe someone to do outreach to virtual pin fans, maybe someone to help decide on a single forums to gather at. Stuff like that.

I'm sure I could probably help out a little bit, but I'm also pretty consumed with an endless amount of PN site projects, just like you authors are probably consumed with regular dev-work.

But I do think that if progress could be made in such areas, then -all- you devs would naturally start to get more recognition and feedback. That's my take, anyway.

Edit: Also, let's be real-- virtual pin users are absolutely spoiled rotten with content these days. It's a total consumers market. As in, a new user can join the scene, download thousands of tables, and play the various sims for years without ever needing to thank an author or even be a real presence in the scene. So I suspect, as always, that it's the devs who create cabinet content and who re-create games for the first time who get the lion's share of the plaudits. That kind of thing has pretty much always been true, sad to say.
 
Last edited:

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
Pardon me if I add on to my previous post, but a thought just occurred to me:

Pinball Nirvana gets a pretty steady stream of new members signing up, and at the very least we should probably be greeting them with a welcome message sharing some useful tips, resources, and an invitation to post questions in our "First Aid" and "Maintenance & Repair" forums. @JonPurpleHaze, what think?

But also, I think it would be pretty cool if a long-time member or staffer periodically sent out a group message, inviting new members to introduce themselves, take part in discussions, share their opinions of the latest projects, etc.

Anybody have a suggestion for who might want to give that job a try?

Dunno why I never thought of this stuff before. :s
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I nominate Terry for that one Ike. He goes to all the boards and posts his FP stuff anyway, so maybe a banner in the sig and mention that PN is the "new" FP forum and how great we all are blah blah blah. I occasional go to vforums, plug stuff there but less receptive there to fp. Still, can see JG causing a bit of a stir, though think I can use a bit of help with testing the code and finding good presets once I finish dicking around with figuring out the new eos code I want to do. I think as authors, we are just not as out there as vpx authors. They compete with each other for attention, while we are more group orientated because we produce far more originals and our development time is months as opposed to weeks. We really should do a better job of self-promotion.

As to new members signing up, that's terrific. My idea in the moderators forum could bring a few more in if successful as well, especially since FP will be a important part of virtual gaming in the future and we have made some pretty huge strides the last couple years. More the merrier...
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I nominate Terry for that one Ike. He goes to all the boards and posts his FP stuff anyway, so maybe a banner in the sig and mention that PN is the "new" FP forum and how great we all are blah blah blah. I occasional go to vforums, plug stuff there but people are less receptive there to fp. Still, can see JG causing a bit of a stir, though I think I can use a bit of help with testing the code and finding good presets once I finish dicking around with figuring out the new eos code I want to do. I think as authors, we are just not as out there as vpx authors. They compete with each other for attention, while we are more group orientated because we produce far more originals and our development time is months as opposed to weeks. We really should do a better job of self-promotion, we put so much work into our tables and deserve more attention.

As to new members signing up, that's terrific. My idea in the moderators forum could bring a few more in if successful as well, especially since FP will be a important part of virtual gaming in the future and we have made some pretty huge strides the last couple years. More the merrier...
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
Doof, Paul-- I especially want to connect people who say "FP physics sucks" with your new flipper project, plus the slightly older one, which was still another big jump-forward, as I see it.

"Everything sucks until I get personally gratified," a cynical man once said!
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Your work is excellent wild... don't let my lack of responses let you think otherwise.
excellent explanation yours, and everyone agrees with what you said, basically you are the good and I the bad ....

but first I make a premise, I am not interested in receiving appreciation or comments in pinsim, from other people I do not even notice, if there are, ok good, if there are no "amen" I see the downloaders ..... I would like to receive appreciations from those whom I consider fellow flippers .... but I see that this has not happened for a long time now ...

but that doesn't change the fact that everyone is likely to give appreciation or comments for tables such as smoking from another great table builder, and you have been an example of this no matter how you came to this appreciation for the smoking table , but you did.

I don't criticize the fact that you enjoyed the smoke table, you are free to do so, I don't care, but I criticize those who only give comments for particular tables they do every 10 years, and they ignore who, is currently creating tables, and which is always active

I mean we are a group of guys, who emigrated here, on PN, because Gopinball is prey to spam, yet among us there is this indifference of not participating in other people's projects ..... even to say only .... . "hey man great job here"

I like to participate in projects, and when I say projects intent on tables, of this group .... who is this group .... and just me, you, George, Gimli .... and someone else who doesn't participate at all

now I am not angry, neither with you or with someone else ..... I am just disappointed, because I see indifference to my tables, examples
go and see my latest entries, and only in DL or DK, apart from some friends, not builders, all the others?maybe I shouldn't be surprised, because not even the PN staff hardly leave comments ....

it is obvious that I don't even leave many comments, for the tables I know very well, I mean mod, or re-mod, but I have commented on some of their projects, see in George's, or Gimli's ..... but where are the new tables ?? in yours, Terry, I took a step back, because I see that you only comment on the things that interest you, you tell me about Nip-it .... and only because Gimli was there, you speak to me in DK, and only because of the magnet .... you can dispute what I think and say now, but I'm sure what I think and tell you..i wonder? a guy wastes a lot of time for a table he is making or family, which prevents him from putting a comment for a table of a companion or mate.....as someone says?

"Eulogy"...?

Elogio ....in Italian.....the translator gives me these results....praice,eulogy,commendation,accolade...which is the most suitable?

Ike...you say, that all authors of FP are under-thanked and underestimated....maybe....
you say,that wiki doesn't speak well of FP.....ok
you suggest, to spread the word...and other solutions you suggest, fine
this below could be a great thing...but
Pinball Nirvana gets a pretty steady stream of new members signing up, and at the very least we should probably be greeting them with a welcome message sharing some useful tips, resources, and an invitation to post questions in our "First Aid" and "Maintenance & Repair" forums. @JonPurpleHaze, what think?

But also, I think it would be pretty cool if a long-time member or staffer periodically sent out a group message, inviting new members to introduce themselves, take part in discussions, share their opinions of the latest projects, etc.

Anybody have a suggestion for who might want to give that job a try?

Dunno why I never thought of this stuff before.
I also add:
we learn, and when I say we .... I say those who are active .... "me first" to give some more comments or appreciation for the new tables or projects, and sorry again if I repeat it, if I, put a new table like Stardust or Circus, and World cup, and I get 0 comments, even from the group that I consider them comrades, or worse from the staff ...... how can we grow interest in FP? if I comment only one table as "Ghostbusters" and I ignore the others ..... and again .... if I only put, the thumbs up, as a loophole .... and don't put 2 words, tell me?

how can we pretend to sensitize people towards FP, which as you say could be the future of PN, if we are primarily indifferent to certain projects or new tables?
I leave you some of my considerations and questions ... can they serve for the good of FP? I don't know, you all decide,from the higher floors.

now I am an exceptional case ... (are, you all?) but I am active ..... but at least I have the courage to admit it, because if I don't comment on a table or project of some user here ..... there is a reason that I consider valid ..... but all the others? why is there .... some user, who only comments on projects of a single boy? why do I see the big boss here, who almost never comments on a table or a project? because I see a lot of comments on a project of a well-known user of a other site, and is "praised" as if it were the God of pinball machines? and then I see 0 comments on a project of another user ... I stop here ... or I risk that you then tell me that I have problems with my mind, or that I am crazy🤣
 
Last edited:

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
Consultant
Well, "eulogy" is a pretty specific thing in English. It refers to someone speaking at another person's funeral. At least, that's how I understand it. In other words, if someone we know died recently, I've yet to hear about it. :(

So, as with many Latin-derived words, "eulogy" has branched in to different meanings across different languages. In fact, the last time Anglish / English received a major injection of Romance / Latin, it was via the Norman Conquest in 1066, when a set of old French got layered on top of a West Germanic base. That's a whole millennia ago, matey.

 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Elogio ....in Italian.....the translator gives me these results....praice,eulogy,commendation,accolade...which is the most suitable?
In English a Eulogy means kind words that you say about someone at a Funeral.

"Gianfranco was a friend and he will be missed by the Pinball Community"
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
funeral????:shockedalien:no.no

it means, as a compliment, and as if you praise, to those people who have done something extraordinary, as if to say to venerate someone, and I add and I want to exaggerate .... praise like a God ...

now this is not to say that Terry did something exaggerated, I just wanted to highlight the context ..... in this way ..... that is, that one table receives more attention than another ... I mean if you only appreciate one type of table and ignore the others .....

@Ike Savage
how would you define it ... if your work colleague appreciates only the work of another and almost never yours, how would you define it? yet you are workmates friends, if you have worked together for years, on the same job you do
 
Last edited:

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
damn, too much confusion, forget the word Eulogy,please....we only say appreciation

Eulogy......
I used a wrong word, which can be misunderstood......I apologize

EDIT:
our concept of a funeral is different from what you do in America, you do it as a party to honor the deceased .... we don't ....we use anything else..it's hard to explain and find the right words
we also say words of comfort, for loved ones of the deceased, we do not elect the deceased in himself.....but we don't use words of Eulogy......
 
Last edited:

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
sometimes at Funerals when we "Eulogize" a loved one we do tend to exaggerate their best versions of who they were in life.

We do tend to take people for granted and acknowledge their value only when they are gone.

This is a small community and I don't look for praise but just a shared outlet for creativity even in this small way.

If this were a funeral perhaps the Priest or Pastor might use Galations 1:10 in todays service
;)
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Bravo...Bob....you almost answered, about how we do the funeral ..... we (Italian Christians) do not "Eulogize" the deceased, or that of what he was humanly, but that instead what he did for "Our Lord Christ"
but maybe it's better not to talk about religion, or what "we" believe in, let's not compare the hobby with religion

but how are you right about Galations 1:10

I'm not looking for men's favor ..... men are doomed to fail (without the help of which we know, Bob) but speaking in the context of pinball machines, well .... but some more appreciative comments (not eulogy ) for my project or table, I think it's a nice gesture ...... to do, and I think everyone likes this ..... being ignored is not nice .... I started a new table , "Stardust" ..... and didn't even get,it a thumbs up ...... this makes me think that nobody likes it .... yet it took me three weeks to make it ..... if no one is interested I will not put more further updates, or I not publish it .... don't you think?
 
Last edited:

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
Ya I agree we shouldn't mix religion with pinball , sorry.

I think you are doing great work on your tables Paolo.
I remember how impressed I was with "Dragon's Lair" and how I added music to it.:)

You have come a long way and can now code your own tables....you had to to learn often by translating other table author's english which is no easy task.

You are also are helping develop BAM and many new innovations

You have recently learned how to "Reskin" tables , done some Zaccaria tables (with Animated Rising Playfields) and started to work on old style "EM" tables.

So you have done great work and we appreciate you....

This is all behind the scenes , low profile work and unfortunately will not get much attention but it is still important and very helpful to the community, so try not to lose heart.

Now back to my Oculus Quest 2 :)
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
@wild

I totally understand where you are coming from.

There are times where I wish my fellow authors / modders / contributors on the FP scene and the VP scene would at least say "something" about the stuff I work on. There are times I will work on something for weeks / months and then finally post it to download... and simply see....nothing for feedback / responses. As you said... hearing something from fellow contributors / authors means more to me than hearing it from many people I don't know (not that I don't like that either).

It's not that I haven't ever seen a compliment or feedback at all from anyone here.... but I can relate to feeling like you did at times when I didn't get any feedback at times.


There are times where I have to choose between being active on forums, or active working on a table. If I get too caught up in the forums, I never get anything done on a table. Much more recently, my wife and daughter's mental health problems have risen up dramatically... so that has made investing energy into the forums difficult as well.


I've always said though... you have to work on tables because you enjoy it for yourself. Don't do it for anyone else's approval. Do it because you like it... and make what you want to play for yourself. If others enjoy it and give you feedback... then that is the best part.
 

Gimli

Pinball Hall of Famer
@wild

I totally understand where you are coming from.

There are times where I wish my fellow authors / modders / contributors on the FP scene and the VP scene would at least say "something" about the stuff I work on. There are times I will work on something for weeks / months and then finally post it to download... and simply see....nothing for feedback / responses. As you said... hearing something from fellow contributors / authors means more to me than hearing it from many people I don't know (not that I don't like that either).

It's not that I haven't ever seen a compliment or feedback at all from anyone here.... but I can relate to feeling like you did at times when I didn't get any feedback at times.


There are times where I have to choose between being active on forums, or active working on a table. If I get too caught up in the forums, I never get anything done on a table. Much more recently, my wife and daughter's mental health problems have risen up dramatically... so that has made investing energy into the forums difficult as well.


I've always said though... you have to work on tables because you enjoy it for yourself. Don't do it for anyone else's approval. Do it because you like it... and make what you want to play for yourself. If others enjoy it and give you feedback... then that is the best part.
I hope your wife and daughter do well Terry ! These are chaotic and bewildering times.
I appreciate all that you have done for the community, as I have said many times before and I will likely say once or twice more. :)
 
Last edited:

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Just a point here, but I have enjoyed being part of the FP "family" for over 15 years because that is what we are, a family. A lot of these games made are not just made by 1 or 2 people, but have a lot of people's work in there as we discovery new things and new abilities with FP and BAM. There are at least 20 different people here that I have bits and pieces of their work or ideas that I used in JG, and hopefully I could contribute back to them in one way or another, and that is really what it's all about. We have made some damn good tables, and the reason those tables are so damn good is because we all have pitched in and helped each other to advance the art.
Some of us don't really comment on things or on tables, but it doesn't mean we don't appreciate it either. Actual family's sometimes just don't tell each other how much they appreciate each other, and that is what we are here, a large extended family.
 

TerryRed

Pinball Master
That is very true.

We sometimes don't realize it... but yes almost everything we do or make is based on someone else's work or examples in some form or another. I do try to give credit to anyone who helped with whatever I work on... but even then I may not know I'm using code from someone else's hard work.... or their models... who knows.

There are times where I would be lost without great tutorials of BAM examples from Gimli... or seeing what Wild has done with BAM and mini playfields like on his NES table... or like suggestions from George on some features or his mods... or seeing how older tables do things like anything from shiva or polygame, etc.

I wouldn't have been able to do any of this cool stuff without the help of so many here now, and in the past... and with the amazing table examples over the years... let alone ravarcade's amazing new features and support he has given, even when he wasn't asked to.
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
So you have done great work and we appreciate you....
Thanks bro.....but I wouldn't have made much progress if you or GF, popotte(JP),George,Gin, or some other, hadn't been available to help.
I totally understand where you are coming from.
believe me, you have no idea where I come from
Much more recently, my wife and daughter's mental health problems have risen up dramatically
I am very sorry for this, these are real problems, and it is not nice to have them, I can only pray for you, so that in who or what you believe in, can help you have the strength and courage, to face this situation in the most calm way for you
Some of us don't really comment on things or on tables, but it doesn't mean we don't appreciate it either. Actual family's sometimes just don't tell each other how much they appreciate each other, and that is what we are here, a large extended family.
I agree because you think we are a family ... I hope this discussion can make us more united, one question ... but if to your son, or your daughter, you never say you love them, how do you know, if he or does she really know you love them?

now in a family there are many ways to tell a loved one "I love you", do you buy him a new car? a house? do you give him a lot of money? now .... how do I know if my work is appreciated by a person, who never tells me ......? just thoughts Shiva

I conclude my symphony...my Dear guys.....
@TerryRed
@Gimli
@Ike Savage
@shiva

Edit: or fixed some errors
nothing is equivalent to what you can say to a person, with a simple comment or appreciation, or any word whatever it is, in any context, in or out of real life ..... it is always better to say something, instead of not say nothing, or worse ignore it,the family, does this ... if we want to talk about family and be part of it.
 
Last edited:

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Trust me,my son doesn't have to even ask let alone think to know how much I love him, I prove it every day to him. Words are just words, actions will always tell you the truth.
 

wild

No Bam no Play
Chat Moderator
Trust me,my son doesn't have to even ask let alone think to know how much I love him, I prove it every day to him. Words are just words, actions will always tell you the truth.
I believe it, I do not question your love for your child .... I would never allow myself to say such a thing ....
I remind you that the context is only of flippers and hobby...
my question was a clear reference giving an example, to your statement...that I put in "quote" above ..... it is obvious that in a family that lives in the same roof, words are sometimes words, and that actions are better than many useless words, but here in PN, we are not all in the same roof, actions.... cannot be done, as in families as you describe ...., here you can only write .... there is a way to do actions, for example donate to the site .... if we want to talk about actions. ... but I,can't do it,because I don't have the chance.

my question was just a quote, because if it is true that we are a family, as you say, and actions cannot be taken (I hope the concept is clear) how can we say that our work, project or table is appreciated if not do we say it,....or better to write it?

if in a new table, which a person undertakes to do, and which he puts in a new "topic" receives 0 comments or nothing else ....just because it's an "EM".... how can you say that that project is appreciated ....?

if it is appreciated, even if it does not receive comments, as you suggest .... then I must think that if a table like "ghostbuster" that receives many comments and compliments .... I must necessarily say that it is praised as a God-pinball....I don't use the term "eulogize"or I create another misunderstanding.
 

GeorgeH

Flippered Out
Staff member
Site Supporters
Maybe we should implement Nic's ideas on how to improve the perception of FP? The only one I remember is to rewrite the Wikipedia post on FP.
 
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • @ 20degree:
    *** *** **** **** ********* *** *** * ****** *** *** ************ ** *** ***** *** **** ** ******* ** *** ***** ****** ******** **** **** ************ **** **** ******
    Quote
  • @ xenonph:
    * * ****** *** ***** **** * *** *** **** **** ******* *** *** *** *** **** ** *****
    Quote
    @ xenonph: * * ****** *** ***** **** * *** *** **** **** ******* *** *** *** *** **** ** *****
    Top