• Many thanks to Ian Longstaff for his lovely table roundups, posted on YT. And here is... WEEK SEVEN!

    Also, here's our browser games collection, for those who are playful.
  • Google Translate to French or Other Languages Click on the link and a new tab will open with this page translated into French.
    Click on the "To:" pull down option to select a different language. Users will not be logged in on the new Google tab.

For a fistful of dollars?

Status
Not open for further replies.

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
David Foley and Ultracade, wow. Like Dude said, I make my table for myself, and share them with anyone who wants them for free. But I'm at least as curious as anyone else about what Foley might be willing to pay, so i wrote and told him about the bagatelle, flipperless, originals, and counter top games I've made. I was a bit surprised when he wrote back and said he was interested.

So I'm going to send him some SS, two of my tables, and a list of tables I've made, and a list of druadic's stuff too. Not that I ever expect Foley to offer enough money, and it would have to be Up Front, for me to allow him to use any of my work, but I want to see exactly what he offers, and how honest his dealings are.

Would I ever agree to let him use my work? Well, I am on a fixed income, and I could use the money, so I'll have to see. If he would only be interested in a few tables, and offer only chump change, no way. But if he was willing to pay for all my work, and the amount was sizable, I'd have to think about it.

So in reality, since I'm sure there's no way Foley will offer my big enough dollars so that after splitting with Patrick and my other co-authors, the answer is no. But in contacting him, I'll be able to see first hand what kind of person he is. All told, I'll send him a list of between 100 and 150 tables. If he offers 50 cents a table, no sale. Now if he offers $$$ a table, then I'll at least be tempted.

Want to guess how much he'll offer, if he offers anything? I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get rich quick dealing with Foley and Ultrracade, and getting rich slowly has no appeal to me at all. I'll let you all know what he has to say, and offer. Sure, loads of cash, all up front. Now if you believe that, I've got some swamp land . . . I'm at least willing to listen to what he has to say,

John, investigative boy reporter
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
Consider if he would have wanted to offer much more a table, but reads here. Better edit and add a few numerics. :shock:

Whatever you really plan to do, nice try to find out some facts. 8)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Good suggestion Yogi, I did edit my first post. I sent him some SS, 3 tables, and a list of about 125 tables made by me, Patrick, and Druadic. I'm at least willing to listen to whatever he may offer, and who knows . . . I'll have to wait and see. It can't hurt to listen.

John
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
I would again edit and add another $ minimum. :wink:

You would get it only once, so if you really get an offer, don't give that away for nearly nothing, so others make the profit from by use in commercial business.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I thought it was supposed to be a royalty offer (what you get depends on their sales). I'd want to know how many they anticipate selling just right off the bat. Selling hardware isn't quite like selling a $30 video game. Some of the actual pinball games in qustion only sold 5000-6000 machines to start with (some less and some really popular ones more).

I'd want to hear more myself, but I think all this talk about splitting things 100 ways from Sunday would just make a mess over what is probably only going to be a few bucks to begin with. It's not like I can't use money just as much as the next guy. But how do we know they'd keep their promise to otherwise leave the community as it is now alone? How do we know a week from now they won't think, hey we could sell these tables as a computer video game package to go along with our computer pinbal controller and make even more money but since that's for the home computer market, we'd be in direct competition with ourselves through the VP community so since they're using illegal roms (just like those other Mame cabinet makers were pointing links to in order to increase their sales), who gives a rat's ass about them. Force them to close!

I mean seriously, I doubt Mr. Foley's post at VPF that they have no interest in the emulation community is legally binding in that regard.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Good points Dude. My situation would be a bit different from yours. Besides not dealing with ROMs, most of my images are of games long out of copyright, and most of the sounds I used came from royalty free sites. With very rare exceptions my partners and I got our own images. I know exactly who co-authored which tables, and even who gave me what I consider substantial help.

I'm not greedy, but since most of my releases are ignored by the vast majority of the community, why would ir should I share any payments with the community. A better question might be since I was druadic's only tester, and several of his tables would never have been released if not for me solving problems for him, how big a cut do I get from any tables of his that are sold.

So yes, this could get ugly if folks allow it to happen. I'll think long and hard before I sign any agreement. I don't expect to get rich, but I sure won't give my work away for pocket change either.

Well, if the worst would happen and vpf would be forced to close, at least us, VPO, and IRP would still be around, since none of us deal with ROM based tables. So Dude, I can send you images for bagatelle, early EM flippered, or flipperless. Name your poison. :p

John
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
You want to cash out so easily? And if David says you can no longer give those away anymore because you are hurting sales of his cabinet by doing so? Breach of contract and no royalty payments as he only wants exclusive rights. Most work here was done with the best intentions. You can't put a price on how your work affects and brings joy to the users that see them. I realize you're curious just what deals this guy is holding - like a bright orange carrot - which is why he approached those authors he wanted to exploit personally, first, and made offers for their stuff because it will fit in with his plans with the least amount of effort, and ignored everyone else. IMO no amount of money is good enough, which is why I proposed we make new tables fitting of a first class product, and he turned me down on that, due to expense.

If he truly has licensed 100s of tables already - pinball.com/Uncle Willy said they license games at $25,000 a title - that would mean he's invested $2.5 million dollars in licenses for 100 games already - with that amount of cash, I think it's reasonable to discuss for 'NEW' work, but whatever he offers for existing work that can be had for free and is still pretty fun, is pointless. It's the principal of the thing - I can speak for myself when I say I didn't start doing this for money. Therefore being offered money to sell myself out, and all I've done for the last four years, is insulting, but that's all I have to say on it at this point.
 

kristian

Pinball Wizard
Hmm, why all really interesting opinions are only expressed here? ;)

Good thread. Foley haven't conctacted me (even though he claims that he has contacted all table authors). How about you?
 

Liteuser.

Pinball Wizard
Hi,

I don't think a last page of a contract (that may or may not be real) is enough information to tell me what Mr. Foley really plans to do with VP.

One thing I can say for sure, VP is not what I thought it was (a freeware program and art form to express the love for pinball) anymore.

My good feelings of the program VP have just made a U turn. Any plans I had for Future Pinball or building/releaseing any table in the future have now ended. I'll check the forums and see how this all turns out. But I can already see it for what its worth.

Good luck, to every body still in the VP scene building tables for free.
Because it's that freedom that made me love those tables. A Modded and sold VP table will not mean anything to me. I'll never play any sold modded VP table. It just feels wrong to me.

Thank you and Take Care
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Mr. Foley PM'd me and said they didn't contact me intially because they couldn't find my e-mail address (i.e. I don't include them in my tables, which is apparently where they looked) so if you didn't get an e-mail Kristian, it might be that you didn't include an e-mail address in any tables. He then said he's interested in obtaining my tables and gave me a contact address.

I sold them all immediately, of course for a hefty $2 million and the fine print says I can no longer release any VP tables on my own ever again so I'm now retiring to Florida to live out the rest of my days playing Shuffle Board. :twisted: (yes I'm just kidding)

Really, we're seeing very quickly the difference between artist integrity and sellouts. People like Krellan want to be paid for just taking photos of Big Bang Bar and its manual even. I just want people to enjoy pinball and help each other out.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Speaking of art and artworks it occurs to me that much of the artwork used in pinball machines is not owned by either Bally or Williams and niether can sell you a licence to use artworks that they themselves do not hold the rights to. I suspect a lot if not all the artworks used in later day pinballs would have been licensed for use in the production run of the pinball only and would not be tranferable to other uses. Time Warner or some other company more then likely holds those rights.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Just an update, and to make sure there are no misunderstandings. I wrote to Foley and mentioned that I make flipperless, bagatelle, counter tops, and originals. He wrote back and said he'd be very interested in seeing some SS, and getting a list of available work.
So I contacted Patrick, who said yes to adding his work to my list.

I added druadic's work, since I have control over his tables in his absence. I sent Foley 4 SS, 3 tables, and a list of 125 tables. Now I haven't heard back from him, and would be stunned if he wanted any of those tables. But I figured I could find something more out about Foley this way.

Royalties don't interest me, especially if we're talking pocket change. Now, if he were to offer to buy all of those tables and games for $500 or $750 each, of course I'd be tempted, and you would be too. But since any offer would probably be for nickels and dimes every three months, and so my answer would be NO.

All I want is more information, and t5o decide for myself if Foley is being honest. Now if I would be offered $75,000 or more to split 3 ways . . . well. Besides, I can only receive $500 a month outside income or I use my disability benefits. So unless Foley proves to be a total fool, he won't ever get an OK from me.

John . . . Born To Be Poor
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
no, he didn't ask me for any tables - he just wantsa to get a blessing to use visual pinmame - which we're saying no he can't, with some extra expression of disapproval in selling a free product with his cabinet.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
I haven't read the entire thread @VPF yet but my initial impression is this is REALLY Bad for VP. It makes me wish that we had strarted an open source project 3 or 4 years ago.

I also believe anyone considering selling their tables to them needs to examine why they made the table in the 1st place,..

By Liteuser.
One thing I can say for sure, VP is not what I thought it was (a freeware program and art form to express the love for pinball) anymore.

I'll be checking my emails and dreading the day I receive one demanding all VP content be deleted.. :(
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
I posted this at VPF already:

People, believe this or that. I'm old enough not to be naive and there are enough other members same too. What would you do to save $$$ and time in a business if there is a chance? Get things you need or you can use for a small royalty, not for a payment! Feed people with little improvements and convince them it's all for their good. Try it and if it you don't have success, swallow the bitter pill. It's your right. If you have what you want it's your decision what to do next. Do you see business competition from VP on pc basis? Take your actions! What did you say yesterday? Who cares? You have the right to do. You have the licence.

About to be naive: Look at what is written about the table downloads.

What's the best for the community? Who knows? It depends on what will happen or is planed already. Nobody knows. The only difference I can think of is, some people get a few bucks for their work or not. Everything else would probably be the same. So would it be the best and maybe the only way, we get what we can and let things run?

Good I don't have to decide, as I'm not interesting for that business.

@ Destruk: What's about this Tom posted: Brian has just send his bug fix for the "ball through the flipper" bug. So let's see what happens. Do we will see a new VP version?

Maybe a nice try, but what's if that's only feeding people? We will see.
 

JonPurpleHaze

Site Nudger
Staff member
10cc Art For Arts Sake lyrics:


Gimme your body
Gimme your mind
Open your heart
Pull down the blind
Gimme your love gimme it all
Gimme in the kitchen gimme in the hall
Art for arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Art for Arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Gimme the readys
Gimme the cash
Gimme a bullet
Gimme a smash
Gimme a silver gimme a gold
Make it a million for when I get old
Art for arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Art for Arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Money talks so listen to it
Money talks to me
Anyone can understand it
Money can't be beat Oh no
When you get down, down to the root
Don't give a damn don't give a hoot
Still gotta keep makin the loot
Chauffeur driven
Gotta make her quick as you can
Give her lovin' make you a man
Get her in the palm of your hand
Bread from Heaven
Gimme a country
Where I can be free
Don't need the unions
Strangling me
Keep me in exile the rest of my days
Burn me in hell but as long as it pays
Art for arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Art for arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Art for arts sake
Money for Gods sake
Art for arts sake
Money for Gods sake

..........
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I've finished Fireball II and have included a deluxe PD CPU feature, but all of this has me debating whether I even want to release it or not.

All of this BS lately has just left me cold. And unless I'm misinterpreting Destruk's comments, it sounds like he's quitting VP. Maybe it's time a bunch of us did. Maybe Randy should make his own VP tables from now on since he's got plenty of $$$ incentive to do it. After all, just look at Top Speed. There's a winner. LOL.
 

Furio

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Why to pay one what that is free?
Perhaps because it is wanted to be transformed the free tables of Vp in not free.
This passage would change all in the realization, in the distribution, etc. Vp would be an other thing.
Saluti dall' Italia
Furio
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
kristian said:
Hmm, why all really interesting opinions are only expressed here? ;)

Possibly because our staff, small as it is, doesn't censor or delete posts, other than their own at times. We also encourage debates and discussions, and our only real rule is "don't make a fool of yourself". Since we believe the old saying that "stucks and stones will break my bomes but words will never hurt me", will even allow flaming and personal attacks, which usually die out quickly, and can be entertaining while they last. I like you Mr Hockey Puck, :p so I won't insult you, Kristian.

John
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Pacdude said:
I've finished Fireball II and have included a deluxe PD CPU feature, but all of this has me debating whether I even want to release it or not.

All of this BS lately has just left me cold. And unless I'm misinterpreting Destruk's comments, it sounds like he's quitting VP. Maybe it's time a bunch of us did. Maybe Randy should make his own VP tables from now on since he's got plenty of $$$ incentive to do it. After all, just look at Top Speed. There's a winner. LOL.

Really there are only two more things I'd really like to see in VP - a finished Rollercaster Tycoon, and Gottlieb Barb Wire. Any others would just be a bonus, but I don't feel right knowing they will end up on an ebay cd or cabinet sales project. As for gottlieb, they deserve to have their stuff spread to the four corners of the earth at any cost IMO... LOL :)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
destruk said:
Pacdude said:
I've finished Fireball II and have included a deluxe PD CPU feature, but all of this has me debating whether I even want to release it or not.

All of this BS lately has just left me cold. And unless I'm misinterpreting Destruk's comments, it sounds like he's quitting VP. Maybe it's time a bunch of us did. Maybe Randy should make his own VP tables from now on since he's got plenty of $$$ incentive to do it. After all, just look at Top Speed. There's a winner. LOL.

Really there are only two more things I'd really like to see in VP - a finished Rollercaster Tycoon, and Gottlieb Barb Wire. Any others would just be a bonus, but I don't feel right knowing they will end up on an ebay cd or cabinet sales project. As for gottlieb, they deserve to have their stuff spread to the four corners of the earth at any cost IMO... LOL :)

Maybe we're kindred spirits Brian. I feel the same way you do about Gottlieb. The only difference is probably that I loved their innovative and unique flipperless from the 30s, and odd flipper placements of the late 40s, and you probably focus on a much later decade. I'm trying to do Gottlieb's 1934 flipperless Flying Trapeze, and its ball movement and cannon-firing is so intricate I don't know if I can pull it off or not. Always loved Gottlieb and Chicago Coin.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I decided I spent too much time and effort on Fireball II and the PD CPU animations, etc. to just keep it to myself so it's out there. Whether I make/finish another table (Pinball Magic and Monopoly are both partially done), I just don't know yet. I "should" find out later today if I'm moving to Arizona or not (I now officially have the option regardless if something local comes up or not), but I've heard that story at work before.

Other tables I wanted to still make at some point, though included:

Whitewater
Jurassic Park
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Sharkey's Shootout
The Transporter
Theatre of Magic
Stargate
Black Hole

and possibly also Space Station, Medieval Madness and Taxi since I already have the pictures (although I'm still waiting on Des Angel's MM playfield, which I'm hoping is higher resolution than the one Cyberdman sent me, which is "ok" and NOS but not double width and a bit blurry in a few places). I've thought about making a new CFTBL and Pinbot as well (shrug).


I don't know if I'll be building those now or not. Time will tell.
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
PD, if you have fun in building tables and I think you have, and if you have fun in releasing them and I think you have, then do it. You do that for your own. Because you have the fun. And you probably have even more fun if you know, there are many people, I believe much more than you can think of, also people who aren't active members on any forums, who like your "art" very much. Count on me too.

I'm still discovering your tables and your aditional features like the PD_CPU's and have fun with. Same on other tables from others. I know I'm much too slow in trying things. No difference i. e. in Johns Rocketman table updates I was asked for playtesting and I already said sorry about.

Don't let destroy your fun by too much care about what Mr. Foley and maybe too much commercial oriented people think and write. I would try to keep things running in that way, that makes me happy/lucky.

If you can make $$$$ of already existing stuff, and you could use the $$$$ sure, even if that wasn't yout intention, but you can grab them for nothing additional, why not make them? Else $$$$ would stay there. As I consider you probably have a better use for them, it would probably be better, if enough and not only a few bucks, if you get them for any use you want. It sure would be a great difference, if you would work on tables only for money, but without heart. Consider.

That's nearly the same reason why I sugested John to edit his post about the $$$$.

Mr. Foley did right in licence this and that, assuming it's true, and now runs his business. Probably nothing wrong in actual rights. But only our hearts don't like that. And that's not wrong too.

Btw., PD, how about to speak to me directly and personally. I never felt you ever noticed me over a couple of years. That's differnet to many others. Mail or PM me if you like.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Yogiholzer, I usually talk to people in PMs when they contact me, not the other way around, but I'm sorry if you feel I've neglected you over the years. I appreciate your table comments. They're much better than "nice job" type ones.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
A reposting of comments I made at vpf.

Now I don't know if this will upset folks or not, but here's my view on this whole thing. From what I've heard from other folks, Mr Foley is being above board about all of this, and if some authors can benefit from it, great. If he were to offer me a contract for some of my work, yes, I would sign on with no apologies.

Sure, making tables is a hobby, but so was writing at one time for me, and getting paid for my writing didn't make me less of a writer. In fact getting paid for writing mafe me a better writer, because I made an effort to improve my writing skill. So maybe I'll tighten up my code, and even learn new and better ways to make my tables a bit better than they are now.

And as for the whole community sharing in whatever I would be paid, why. I have offered help. siggestions, advice, and testing to any number of authors, as many other authors have, so it evens out. And as for non-authors who have supplied images or helped test some tables, their payback has been the actual tables that have been released and which they have enjoyed playing.

I doubt if any authors will become wealthy, and if they do make enough to enjoy an few nice things, so who is hurt by that. Mr Foley probably could have dome all the work in-house, but he decided to share the windfall of his project with some of our authors. The better his relationship with the VP community the better for him and UltraCade. Some of us might buy his new pinball cabinet, and others of us might talk it up among our friends. Good business on Mr Foley's part.

No, I haven't been offered a contract. I would expect if I ever were offered a contract, it would be later on for one or more of UltraCade's expansion packs. And if I were, and if it seemed like a decent and fair offer, yes, I'd sign with no qualms. Being on a very limited income, I could use a little extra money.

And yes, even after I had signed a contract, making tables would still be a hobby, because I wouldn't change what tables I make, or how I make them. Patrick and I would still be partners, and we'd still help each other out just like we do now. And if I ever did sign a contract, I won't change, and I sure won't make an announcment, since it's nobody's business.

Why browbeat Mr Foley for being a businessman, and why browbeat authors who are lucky enough to get rewarded for the time and effort they put into the hobby we all love? I wish every author here good luck, and no, I won't ency you any money you might make. And don't begrudge me any moey that I might make. As long as I keep making new tables and releasing them, I would think it would be unfair for anyone to call me a sell out. Rather than being jealous of me, I would hope you could be happy for me.

John
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
    There are no messages in the chat. Be the first one to say Hi!
    Top