GeytKeyCode(NudgeUpKey)

[AnonTet]

Actually, you can tilt without tilt bob *and* analogue nudge. See Cosmic Princess table.

You simply emulate a tilt bob with walls and a captive ball. I believe it is shiva's (blue) code if I remember correctly.

 

[Popotte]

Actually, you can tilt without tilt bob *and* analogue nudge. See Cosmic Princess table.

You simply emulate a tilt bob with walls and a captive ball. I believe it is shiva's (blue) code if I remember correctly.

It's Shiva's ode.

 

[GeorgeH]

I think Bob is talking about having the effect of a nudge. The purpose of a nudge is to move the ball. You can simulate the motion of the ball when it is nudged instead of it actually nudging it. It seems like it would be pretty tricky because you would have to imitate the motion of the ball like it is being nudged. Of course on a hard hit, the cabinet won't move any more than it does currently which could be a bit of distraction. You might be able to simulate the table shaking like was done on Jurassic Park.

 

[GeorgeH]

I think it might be easiest to use the existing nudge motion but add a velocity factor to extend the existing motion a bit further with the harder nudges.

 

[Gimli]

I think Bob is talking about having the effect of a nudge. The purpose of a nudge is to move the ball. You can simulate the motion of the ball when it is nudged instead of it actually nudging it. It seems like it would be pretty tricky because you would have to imitate the motion of the ball like it is being nudged. Of course on a hard hit, the cabinet won't move any more than it does currently which could be a bit of distraction. You might be able to simulate the table shaking like was done on Jurassic Park.

Exactly

I know the xml ha the parameters thats not my point

Fp is constrained by an embedded Tilt warning system and nudge keys that can’t alter in the code

So I am proposing an “end around”
That enables a dynamic response based on the amount force you freely decide to apply as a player

Not a rigid predetermined protocol

 

[Gimli]

@FireDragon76 it's likely not worth while but I performed a test and I believe there is a way to create a whole new more realist Tilt simulation for FP....that probably no one would care about .

It involves capturing the whole table in a miniplayfield and oscillating the whole table in which ever direction you wish with what ever keycode you wish.

It has the advantages of :
1. More authentic physics
2.Full customizable keys
4. variable nudge force based on duration of key press

it has the disadvantages of :
1. Maybe adversely impacting GPU performance
2. Maybe affecting other miniplayfields used for that table

 

[TerryRed]

@FireDragon76 it's likely not worth while but I performed a test and I believe there is a way to create a whole new more realist Tilt simulation for FP....that probably no one would care about .

It involves capturing the whole table in a miniplayfield and oscillating the whole table in which ever direction you wish with what ever keycode you wish.

It has the advantages of :
1. More authentic physics
2.Full customizable keys
4. variable nudge force based on duration of key press

it has the disadvantages of :
1. Maybe adversely impacting GPU performance
2. Maybe affecting other miniplayfields used for that table

That won't work for all tables. Many table items that have special colliders won't properly move in a miniplayfield with full collisions enabled. Some of these items that can have problems are:

- kickers (the ball may not come out of the hole)
- slingshots
- vari-targets
- rotary targets
- diverters
- flippers

I discovered this while building additional playfields for Silent Hill. While playing, when you press - on NumPad to show colliders, you can see which of the colliders are not properly being moved.

 

[Gimli]

That won't work for all tables. Many table items that have special colliders won't properly move in a miniplayfield with full collisions enabled. Some of these items that can have problems are:

- kickers (the ball may not come out of the hole)
- slingshots
- vari-targets
- rotary targets
- flippers

I discovered this while building additional playfields for Silent Hill. While playing, when you press - on NumPad to show colliders, you can see which of the colliders are not properly being moved.

ya likely true

Here is a simple test table press "B" and "M" repetitively on keyboard like a fiend , the kicker, trigger and flippers seem to work ok in this simple test.

 

[FireDragon76]

I actually am interested, since nudging and tilt is such an important part of pinball.

 

[GeorgeH]

ya likely true

Here is a simple test table press "B" and "M" repetitively on keyboard like a fiend , the kicker, trigger and flippers seem to work ok in this simple test.

Looks like it works for me. It could be used on tables that don't use mini playfields.

 

[FireDragon76]

Looks like it works for me. It could be used on tables that don't use mini playfields.

It might be interesting to use on old tables where nudging was such an essential part of the gameplay.

 

[Gimli]

It might be interesting to use on old tables where nudging was such an essential part of the gameplay.

as Terry indicated we may run into issues when we have more objects we can try it on an older style table

 

[GeorgeH]

Too bad we can't use the default nudge keys.

 

[FireDragon76]

as Terry indicated we may run into issues when we have more objects we can try it on an older style table

A table like Central Park might be a good choice.

 

[Gimli]

A table like Central Park might be a good choice.

Ok I grabbed Franzleo's version of Central Park

Use "M" and "B" for nudging if you play in Debug mode you notice Presstime 1 -3
the table will nudge more the longer you hold the nudge key

for nudge left and right I have the nudge angle likley set around 60 Degrees I think, not quite sure...we can refine the math as we go..


also if you press both nudgekeys at the same time it is the same as nudging up

I exagerated the response just for proof of concept


see video


View attachment Future Pinball 2023-05-24 13-37-17-34.mp4

 

[FireDragon76]

Ok I grabbed Franzleo's version of Central Park

Use "M" and "B" for nudging if you play in Debug mode you notice Presstime 1 -3
the table will nudge more the longer you hold the nudge key

for nudge left and right I have the nudge angle likley set around 60 Degrees I think, not quite sure...we can refine the math as we go..


also if you press both nudgekeys at the same time it is the same as nudging up

I exagerated the response just for proof of concept


see video


View attachment 37412

Cool.

In the absence of velocity sensitive keyboards (like the musical ones), nudge time may be a good compromise.

I'll check it out and let you know what I think. I like experiments.

 

[Gimli]

Cool.

In the absence of velocity sensitive keyboards (like the musical ones), nudge time may be a good compromise.

I'll check it out and let you know what I think. I like experiments.

The nudge values I chose I pulled out of the air....they can be refined completely and of course then we can add a tilt routine...I think

 

[FireDragon76]

The nudge values I chose I pulled out of the air....they can be refined completely and of course then we can add a tilt routine...I think

It seems to work decently, and I didn't notice any problem with slingshots or bumpers. The values need to be tweaked some, but I think it's a good idea, particularly for tables like that focused on nudging.

You should probably have a cap on how heavy a nudge you can get out of the length of a keypress.

CPU utilization was low (10 percent on Ryzen 3600 underclocked to 4 GHz), though GPU usage was about 30-40 percent higher than normal (39 percent total with Geforce 1650 Super).

 

[Gimli]

It seems to work decently, and I didn't notice any problem with slingshots or bumpers. The values need to be tweaked some, but I think it's a good idea, particularly for tables like that focused on nudging.

You should probably have a cap on how heavy a nudge you can get out of the length of a keypress.

CPU utilization was low (10 percent on Ryzen 3600 underclocked to 4 GHz), though GPU usage was about 30-40 percent higher than normal (39 percent total with Geforce 1650 Super).

ya I will work on the math and tilt routine

 

[FireDragon76]

I forgot how fun a table like Central Park could be (I love the bells, chimes, and general bounciness of the physics, with lots of side-to-side play in the ball). This would be a good physics demo.

I tried to implement Humpty Dumpty with FizX Lite, and it relies alot upon nudging, but I got stuck in the minutiae of art and models (I don't know much about working on 3D models, plus HD doesn't have a "proper" drain and it was often cantankerous and glitched out. Central Park has the advantage that it has none of those problems.

 

[Gimli]

I forgot how fun a table like Central Park could be (I love the bells, chimes, and general bounciness of the physics, with lots of side-to-side play in the ball). This would be a good physics demo.

I tried to implement Humpty Dumpty with FizX Lite, and it relies alot upon nudging, but I got stuck in the minutiae of art and models (I don't know much about working on 3D models, plus HD doesn't have a "proper" drain and it was often cantankerous and glitched out. Central Park has the advantage that it has none of those problems.

Ok , I think I have the math figured out . Using the good 'ole "SOH CAH TOA" for right angle triangles

You will see I set a parameter called "Delta" which is the amount of nudge applied in the left/right or "x" direction.
I also set a parameter called "NudgeAngle"

As X and Y axis plus the nudge angle form a right angle triangle then "SOH CAH TOA" math applies

and so to get the "Y" value adjustment we solve for "Opposite"
Tangent(NudgeAngle) = Opposite /Adjacent
so Oppositie = Adjacent * Tangent(NudgeAngle)

and for FP math we have to convert the "NudgeAngle" from Degrees to Radiants .
so Oppositie = Adjacent * Tangent(NudgeAngle * DegToRad)
or for our purpose the Change in Y = Delta * Tangent(NudgeAngle * DegToRad)

And because FP is reversed in the Y direction ( Y value increases as ball rolls towards you) then Final math :
Change in Y = - Delta * Tan(NudgeAngle * DegToRad)


In the script to tweak , you can simply change the NudgeAngle or the Delta values to tweak as you wish
I have the NudgeAngle Currently set at 10 degrees

I hope it works
next I will work on a tilt routine
Cheers

 

[Gimli]

@TerryRed
Here is an interesting summary

Pinscape Build Guide

mjrnet.org

I think we can enable tilt bob simulation in FP if Rav can enable joystick xy monitoring in BAM like he did for mouse xy

The above math should make it easy translate

I will ask him as this may be interesting for cab users

 

[GeorgeH]

@TerryRed
Here is an interesting summary

Pinscape Build Guide

mjrnet.org

I think we can enable tilt bob simulation in FP if Rav can enable joystick xy monitoring in BAM like he did for mouse xy

The above math should make it easy translate

I will ask him as this may be interesting for cab users

I think Shiva built a model of the same free-swinging pendulum surrounded by a metal ring that can be used on FP. I don't know if it would help you or not:

Support File - FP - Flex Tilt

A flexible tilt system for future pinball by shiva (blue) This simulates a mechanical Plumb Bob type tilt system for Future Pinball, with custom code, as a alternative to the future pinball tilt system. This was designed to REPLACE FP's tilt...

pinballnirvana.com

 

[TerryRed]

@TerryRed
Here is an interesting summary

Pinscape Build Guide

mjrnet.org

I think we can enable tilt bob simulation in FP if Rav can enable joystick xy monitoring in BAM like he did for mouse xy

The above math should make it easy translate

I will ask him as this may be interesting for cab users

I use pinscape in my cabinet already for nudge and tilt bob (as do many cabinet users). It's why I add my own standardized "real" tilt bob support (with debounce time) to all PinEvent V2 tables because that is how cabinet users are setup. The proper way is to have a (real) tilt bob trigger a nudge warning just like a real pin does. The gamepad axis movements are only used for the nudge movements of the ball itself.

Having tilt activated by the range of the axis movements has been done many times before with other apps and in pinscape itself (by monitoring the accelerometer's ranges, etc)... but it simply doesn't work well given the real movement characteristics of a cabinet... as well as things like shaker motors having an effect on the accelerometer.

That's why... for FP in a cabinet... using a real tilt bob to trigger a tilt warning is the best approach that always works as it should.

 

[Gimli]

I think Shiva built a model of the same free-swinging pendulum surrounded by a metal ring that can be used on FP. I don't know if it would help you or not:

Support File - FP - Flex Tilt

A flexible tilt system for future pinball by shiva (blue) This simulates a mechanical Plumb Bob type tilt system for Future Pinball, with custom code, as a alternative to the future pinball tilt system. This was designed to REPLACE FP's tilt...

pinballnirvana.com

interesting, there is definitely a cross over

I use pinscape in my cabinet already for nudge and tilt bob (as do many cabinet users). It's why I add my own standardized "real" tilt bob support (with debounce time) to all PinEvent V2 tables because that is how cabinet users are setup. The proper way is to have a (real) tilt bob trigger a nudge warning just like a real pin does. The gamepad axis movements are only used for the nudge movements of the ball itself.

Having tilt activated by the range of the axis movements has been done many times before with other apps and in pinscape itself (by monitoring the accelerometer's ranges, etc)... but it simply doesn't work well given the real movement characteristics of a cabinet... as well as things like shaker motors having an effect on the accelerometer.

That's why... for FP in a cabinet... using a real tilt bob to trigger a tilt warning is the best approach that always works as it should.

Thanks Terry ,
this is out of my wheel house , so I will drop it soon.

I am still confused (which isn't unusual for me lol)
Are you saying that everything is cool then for cabinet users on Fp in regard to nudge and tilt ?

It sounds like you have a way with PinEvent V2 tables to code a tilt bob for tilting

I take it the tilt bob also provides directional information through the joystick fp intephase for nudging ? but likely only provides "nudge left" and " nudge right" and "nudge up" calls through the standard xml defined physics ?

So it sounds like with a Tilt Bob for Cab users and with Shiva's code for desktop users a more realist Tilt mechanism is created but nothing new has been tried with physical nudging of the table ?

What I mean is the nudge results aren't dynamic
Also I am wondering if the xml parameters are realistic or just wooden prescriptions
There seems to be a recurring theme that people find FP nudge physics wanting
(although I personally am used to it)