Williams Grand Prix (Williams, 1976) Problem

[Postman]

I picked up a 1976 Williams Grand Prix and the 100's counter does not activate the 1000's counter. It rolls from 900 to 0. Any ideas?

 

[malikinam]

The rubbers are shot, so I ordered a complete kit with all new rubber, new bulbs, new springs and new balls off ebay. I am going to do a more thorough cleaning..

 

[StoveBolt]

Hi Postman, wish I could help you out but "I know nothing", I did just pick up a Grand Prix though. Has 30 games on the meter and condition looks next to new but it don't do nothing but light up

Just got into collecting EM pinballs and was looking for an active board were guys like talking about them. I have 4 so far..

73 Bally Ro Go
73 Bally Sky Kings
76 Bally Capt Fantastic
and the 76 Williams Grand Prix

You have others?

 

[faralos]

try this site for a fix to your em reel problem
http://tuukan.fliput.net/emfix_en.html
it states this lower down the page too:

Score motor

The "heart" of an EM pinball is the score motor. It is an electric motor that has notched metal or plastic discs or cams operating many switches while the motor turns. Nearly all functions in an EM game are controlled by the score motor. Many faults cause the motor to keep turning endlessly, but very seldom is the problem at the motor itself in these cases. The score motor is needed for example in scoring 500 points. A playfield switch energizes the 500 point relay, that turns score motor on, a motor switch gives 5 pulses to scoring reel, and another switch then turns off the 500 point relay. This is how most game functions operate.

Gottlieb and Bally used a motor with vertical shaft, having switches in many layers on top of each other and on every side of the motor. Adjusting or checking the bottom switches may be difficult. Williams used motors with horizontal shaft, and all switches in one row. They are easier to clean and adjust.
so it may be a switch out of alignment or broken somewhere

 

[StoveBolt]

Thanks Faralos for the great site, I'm off to do some reading.

 

[DaveBonds]

I was having the same issue with the same score reel on another Williams 4 player game and I was able to correct it quickly. None of the 10 place value scores would trigger on any of the 1,2,3 or 4 player score reels, so I knew it wasn't just the 10 place value reels.

After I found the schematic online, I discovered that it was a foul contact in a relay. The backbox on all of the Williams EM games that I have each have a different relay for each place value score reel (1, 10, 100, 1000, etc.) The 9 digit will rollover to 0 and trigger the next higher place value relay to go up, so chances are, the 100 place value score reel is doing it's job, but the 1000 place value relay isn't detecting the signal from it.

If you look in the back box, you should be able to identify a bank of relays that are labeled for each place value. Inspect the solder connections on the wire to the 1000 point place value relay. If they are ok, clean the contact on the magnet of the relay with some emry cloth or something. You can even start by manually tripping the relay with your finger a few times where the plastic bracket holds the leaf contacts. Do it a few times with the machine off and see if that frees up any corrosion in the relay, then turn it on and test it out.

 

[StoveBolt]

Mine lights up, the #1 player is lite and the score on 2080. when you hit the button the horizontal motor in the bottom of the cabinet runs then stops but nothing else happens. I manually clicked the score back to all 0s but still the motor just runs then stops when you hit the button. The right pop bumpers is lite but neither one works manually but the targets jump up and down and the ball holes all kick back up pushing them down manually.

I did notice the (how many) game meter is disconnected and looks like it is jumped to not use. That's why only 30 games is on it, But the condition is next to new.

This thing is way over my head so I have a guy coming out to look at it.

Hope I can learn something. Cheers!!

 

[DaveBonds]

Hi Stovebolt,

Each problem you are describing should be addressed one at a time. The first thing that I would do is take care of the game start issue and then move on to the individual devices on the playfield that need attention.

The total play counter only gets a momentary voltage signal from either of the two black wires attached to it that complete a circuit with the red wire, to trip the counter and bump it up one digit each time a game is played. That won't have anything to do with the start up problem you are describing, but it wouldn't hurt to reconnect it properly. The red wire should go on the top and the black ones should go on the bottom, together.

The horizontal switch stack motor that sits right behind it is your game reset mechanism. That should be triggered to move from the start button, just like you describe is, each time a game is started and will continue moving until the switch stacks in all four of the player's score reel sets in the back box are at zero, like you manually set them to.

It sounds to me like your game reset motor mechanism is doing what it should be doing. It's just running as if all of the score reels are always at zero, so it stops after the first revolution.

Do the score reels advance on their own with anything on the playfield?

 

[StoveBolt]

Thanks for you reply Dave and no, nothing advances the score numbers and yes the motor only turn one revolution each time the button is pushed and that's it.

 

[DaveBonds]

Ok. Do the flippers work after you've pressed the game start button on the front and use the side flipper buttons?

I'd really like to look at this schematic, but I can't seem to find a PDF. It seems to me like the relays or switch stacks that run the score reels are dirty and not letting signals from the score mechanisms to actually score on the reels.

I found an original schematic for your game, available for sale on this website-

http://pages.videotron.com/tome/

It's listed in the index, within all of the Williams Schematics and Manuals that he has available. It has some pencil writing on it, but it would be a very good thing to have on hand, even if you do end up paying someone out of pocket to repair the machine.

His contact/ email address is available on the website and it looks like his prices are reasonable.

 

[StoveBolt]

No the flippers don't work Dave, the motor turns one rev. and nothing happens or changes. I have a guy coming in the morning to look at it, he's 88 and been in the biz for over 50 years, only thing is he has a brain injury, we'll see how that works out :) Thanks Ray

and thanks for the tip on the schematic.

BTW, I picked up a Bally Old Chicago today. that's 5 now, bought them all in the last 2 months. (i got the bug)

 

[DaveBonds]

Very cool. I have three in my collection right now. I picked up the first one in February. I have a '68 Williams Doozie (one of two games with Zipper Flippers by Williams), A '73 Williams Jubilee that I am almost finished with a complete restoration of and a '66 Gottlieb Mayfair that is currently on the fritz, due to a short that I am still diagnosing.

I couldn't see any good images of the entire backbox internals on http://www.ipdb.org, but if the game is anything like my other two Williams games, it probably has the score reel relays in the back box.

If that guy still has your schematic, I'd pick it up. It can save you time and money later on with the inevitable on these things.

 

[StoveBolt]

Thanks again Dave, nice games (looked them up at the database) I like the Dozie with the car and bike, also it's one player. The only one player I have is the Sky Kings.

and yes, score reel relays in the back box.

 

[StoveBolt]

Well the old guy got her going after 2 hours of adjusting switches. he drove 80 miles round trip and charged me 100 bucks, gave him 150. :D

 

[DaveBonds]

Good deal. So, I take it that a lot of the switches on relays that run the components like the pop bumpers and power to the flippers were out of adjustment or dirty?

I'm glad you got it going and gave the guy a good tip. :)

 

[StoveBolt]

Yep, didn't have to replace any parts, after he left I replaced all the rubber (some turned to powder) and cleaned/waxed the playfield. She's 100% with one little scratch on the side of the cabinet the size of my little finger nail, gota be the cleanest Grand Prix in the state (or country)

It's a 2 owner machine never on location and I have the original receipt $810 in 77 the second owner played it, bought it and when he got it home and put it in his family room (next to his 1015 Wurlitzer juke box) it wouldn't start up. It sat there 15 years not working. It's set for two plays for a quarter and I have a live in antique store, maybe I can make some money with it. :) http://www.frontiernet.net/~irishhills/store1.jpg

 

[DaveBonds]

Wow. That is an exceptional machine. I would certainly reconnect the play counter, with that kind of documentation on it's life and use. As I'm sure you know, whenever you have some sense of provenance, it gives anyone with interest a clear picture of the piece's history and that alone is worth something, not to mention that it's becoming extremely hard to do in the digital world.

You don't typically see people buying these games outside of commercial use, from the beginning. I've personally put more plays on my Doozie than you have showing on your counter, and everyone that comes over to my house plays to get a high score on the dry erase board.

I wouldn't doubt that even though they made ten thousand examples, that you probably have the nicest one out there, maybe outside of one that could have been kept for preservation sake at a museum or something, straight from Williams, but I don't know of any like that, personally.

There are a few solid state examples of that game out there, too.

 

[StoveBolt]

Thanks Dave but you're making feel bad now. A guy come in the shop last week and ask me "how much is the Grand Prix" and I told him it wasn't priced yet because I had to get someone to get it going. He called yesterday and ask the progress and I told him it was running and $1050 (thinking that would end the conversation). I think he's coming this week to pick it up

Oh well I hate to have things in the shop not for sale and only have room for two in our living area behind the shop, also have two I like better.. Ray (maybe he won't show up)

 

[DaveBonds]

If you do let it go, you might write down it's history and work done on a piece of paper with any dates or receipts you have and send it with the machine, should you end up selling it.

It's a nice example, but not terribly rare. I've seen at least four in the past six months for sale on my local listings in varying condition. There is one that is close to the condition of your machine that was listed for $1100 which I believe is down around $900 now. I'm not sure if it's sold yet.

I think $1050 is a reasonable price for that game in that condition.

 

[StoveBolt]

Thanks Dave I feel better.... Ray