http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=16491&pid=143999&st=0&#entry14 3999

[Shockman]

You just posted a dump of the entire board. I would not know where to look. I remember it was when you first put a number to it that had no base in fact. Also I have never had a problem with static flippers, ones that were not moving, but the 'fix' as you like to call it, knowing damn well I don't call it that is not designed to prevent the ball going through a static flipper. It's designed to not allow the ball a chance to go through a returning flipper, because it still would if it could.

It was a continuing of the issue though, and it started with you not believing it, after saying it did not exist nor did anything else. I have read a number of times that people have the ball through the flipper while static. I have encountered it long ago myself but it was during a brief time when the key was released. Regardless it was no time to continue to harp that it was not what I said it was, because all I said is that it exists, Pacdude did not create it, it is not instant return, it rightly simulated a spring instead of gravity, it would range anywhere from 0% effective to 100% effective depending on the speed settings and that it had no other point than to return the flipper faster than a ball was coming at it.

You tell me I could come back some day if... then you say the bridge is burned. See. This is what I have always been talking about. The forums would be no less what you want them to be if I had a RO and could get some stuff from there which I can not get elsewhere, so I don't understand your point. This ban is no service to your community.

No one is going to believe you that I just started posting that my work around works everyday. Just as many times as I did that, you were saying that it doesn't, or that it never existed.

People could believe some of the crap though, that even was already reputed in your very own interview with Randy which you afterward don't take my being told I was the reason VP has the ball through the flipper problem and that Randy would have fixed it otherwise. You would not call Randy a liar when he said he never encountered it or reproduce it, or Destruk when he said it was my fault, but only me when I say it was not me. It could be a hell of a lot faster than it is and still not be instant, gravity returning flippers has never been true. It should not be taken out or marked with a big red sign, and if that is just opinions as you said, then my opinions are nothing worse.

Keep pretending that this never happened. If you have convinced yourself already, then that's good. You need this. I did nothing before this but support you, and you don't even know that anymore. And of course you don't need to remember that.

I don't tell truths. Truths tell themselves. Lies on the other hand do not. They need a teller.

 

[Shockman]

That was my conclusion as well. There is and never was a fix. The member was not told there was no fix. He was told there was nothing, nor ever has been that can be done about it.

I guess I have been lucky though in that I have never had a problem with static flippers. They have always caught every ball on my machines. There were times when it seemed like they didn't, but it was obvious that the flipper key had released it. Still if that happened after the workaround became a part of the program a return would certainly be much faster than a ball that was caught could possibly get going and then you would have to say that the ball again went through the flipper in the down position. But if it was not a non intentional release IE the ball actually going through a held and stopped flipper either up or down it should have been mentioned then. I'm sure I could have done something to prevent that from ever happening again too. Like an invisible wall that is always up when a flipper is with the same front, (or top) placing and having it drop with any key release. That would in effect be a true fix for that. It's really sad to hear these days that people were having so much trouble with VP back then. If they would have just spoke up then. Oh but yeah, I still believe you.

Happens to me too.

 

[Noah Fentz]

The majority of your post makes absolutely no sense.

For the love of God, get over it!

I did nothing but post the obvious. You call it flaming somehow. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion.

You seem to think that the topic I linked to is the exclusive reason you're banned, it's not. (The link works, btw. Maybe it's because I banned your IP from the site, since I had to remove you from our chatroom again last night?)

You say lies. I say facts, and they are all there for everyone to see. Instead of campaigning, maybe you should just let everyone make up their own mind.

Oh wait, they already did when they PM'ed me asking me to deal with you. Nevermind.

Wow, this certainly has been fun and enlightening.

You seem to think that you can go on and on with your accusations and yet I'll still be receptive to letting you back.

Isn't at least one definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

It's all clear to me now.

 

[Noah Fentz]

...There is and never was a fix. The member was not told there was no fix. He was told there was nothing, nor ever has been that can be done about it...

Because there isn't, Phil.

 

[Rick2007]

Shockmans Game

You're only held accountable for your own actions. Anything else would be unfair.

What I want is for you to shut the fuck up about it. You remember it in your own 'I'm the victim' way, as usual, and yet the warning logs, transcripts, and archives show it completely as I remember them ...

YOU being a pain in the ass and very disruptive to the day to day activity of the board.

Before you cry conspiracy ... no, they have not been altered.

It's not being fostered, it's being harbored by YOU. It is my firm belief that banning you has made VPF a better place. It's sad to say, because at one time, I really liked you. Enough to even CALL YOU ON THE PHONE to work it out.

This bridge has been burned, man.

Noah, I have watched this crap from shockey for many years.
He really enjoys yanking your shorts,,,and other staff. He has
lured you over to this site,,,,and you followed like a
pissed off little puppy. Try to take a big breath,,,, and not respond.

Rick

 

[Noah Fentz]

I'm not a pissed off little puppy at all, thanks.

I get irked when someone calls me a liar or calls my character into question. I've given Shocky his fair shake, and then some.

I'm done.

 

[1234fd]

That was my conclusion as well. There is and never was a fix. The member was not told there was no fix. He was told there was nothing, nor ever has been that can be done about it.

I guess I have been lucky though in that I have never had a problem with static flippers. They have always caught every ball on my machines. There were times when it seemed like they didn't, but it was obvious that the flipper key had released it. Still if that happened after the workaround became a part of the program a return would certainly be much faster than a ball that was caught could possibly get going and then you would have to say that the ball again went through the flipper in the down position. But if it was not a non intentional release IE the ball actually going through a held and stopped flipper either up or down it should have been mentioned then. I'm sure I could have done something to prevent that from ever happening again too. Like an invisible wall that is always up when a flipper is with the same front, (or top) placing and having it drop with any key release. That would in effect be a true fix for that. It's really sad to hear these days that people were having so much trouble with VP back then. If they would have just spoke up then. Oh but yeah, I still believe you.

You know what : I don´t give a damn.

It´s 2011 & the actual version is VP 9.1.2.

High res tables, with transparent ramps, incredible game flow, fantastic flipper settings allowing you an extremely acurate control of your ball, playing smoothly on a midrange laptop.

Newbies @ VPF.org have no idea of WTF is BTTF bug & do not give a damn.

 

[Shockman]

-If you did not play Vp you would not have balls going through the flipper on it.
-If you set the table slope that the ball would crawl slowly down the screen it would not happen unless you had your flipper swinging like the hand on a friggen clock.
-If you always flip at the ball and hit it with the upswing it is not going to happen.
-If you use a hole bunch of flippers alternating between right side up flippers and upside down flippers only one visible at a time it will bot totally eliminate it, but is another thing that can be done. I had very good success with this a posted an example of this with a flipper returning with a swing that took 5 seconds and most balls of any speed bouncing off it. An example of this was posted two days before my script discovery that migrated into the core.
-PacDude had some success with using walls that occupied the same space as a returning flipper.
-Having the flipper returned mapped to the flipper key and flip mapped to the key release with the right settings for the flipper could show some improvement.
-Having a flipper that the ball does not actually touch until the flipper is down and stopped is very effective.
-Controlling the ball speed at a particular moment with active ball can help.

None are fixes, but to say there is nothing that can be done about the problem IS a lie.

See, anything it is generally accepted with only one straight out statement otherwise as the exception is more or just as realistic as a solid ball going through a solid fli... anything., and generally more desirable than having a ball go through the flipper, and of all the thousands of members, I have only read from one that they thought a ball through the flipper was more realistic than a fast flipper.

 

[Rick2007]

I'm not a pissed off little puppy at all, thanks.

I get irked when someone calls me a liar or calls my character into question. I've given Shocky his fair shake, and then some.

I'm done.

I hope you are really done with Shockey,,,,,,,,,,,,,Time will tell. By the way
That reference to a little puppy was just to get a response.
In the pinball world, you are a Bull Dog!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

And I do like/respect You and what
You do for the Pinball community.

Rick

 

[Shockman]

I like Paul and respect him to. As much as anyone else. I just like and respect the truth more.

He has built a site that everyone has wished for for years, with nonstop attention, and great content, features and specials, like the visiting leaders in pinball.

His only flaw is that he holds me responsible for mine and other's actions and he promised me he would not do that. It effects only me and him though, and I'm not entirely sure it effects him.

 

[Shockman]

http://www.vpforums.org/lofiversion/index.php/t7825.html

It's not in there. Everything else is as it seems to be a link to the entire forum up to date, but with non member access.

The last time I did see it was when I was a member and it was in a section call the archives, I believe, but I could be wrong. I recall noting to myself that it was not where it was.

I think a direct link to the thread in question should be provided. If it is as you say, I will see it as you do. I understand that provoked, I can misunderstand intentions and I admit that after reading that there was nothing that could be done about the flipper problem, and the things that were said after that, I was provoked. I would really like to read that again.

I thought you said my ban was not an ip ban. I don't know what the difference is though, as I haven't noticed anything different. No matter. You could still provide a dump of it. I trust you to do that fairly.

This is what I see when I click the link. Basically the forums VPF for guests in total all readable and up to date. And much read. it's not there. If you want to remove it, I will take it off this post. It might be how all nonmembers are going to see it. You don't want to mirror the entire forum here.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Looks like I archived it, so it's inaccessible to anyone but staff.

I've attached the html. I had to zip it.

 

[Shockman]

It was archived quite some time ago.

Thanks for posting it but it is not an accurate account. It has no edit tags and I know I edited at least two posts the same day. It looks like other were edited as well, but later.

It surprisingly has what I have been talking about in it and nothing is believable even from me but I was not the one trying to get a point across. I was the saying that if you are going to get someone else's point across you should get it right. The defense from destruk was how should I know, I have important matters at hand, when in fact it should then have been how could you comment and not leave it to people that do know. You were stuck in your own trap with nothing but saying it does not work, that was finally reduced to it does not work for you.

I know it was not you but one member was saying that a very slow ball went through the flipper. How fast was the flipper moving if a very slow ball is going to go through it? On real machines the hardest part about catching a slow ball dead is the speed of the flipper.

You were talking about multi-ball when the number of balls makes no difference. Balls go through each other and when they do they will also go through everything. This has nothing to do with any contact. In fact it's service is to take contact out of the equation. It does not matter if it is one ball or two, or more with a flipper moving fast enough multi ball is not going to create that new issue you tried to inject. I can say there would be no balls through the flipper but the objective was never to keep the ball from going through the flipper it is as it always has been to keep the ball in play. How does it do this? By giving a ball the static stopped flipper down position every time. Don't you realize that a ball can already be on the flipper, or in it, on it's way through, but if the flipper can reach the resting place ahead of the ball the ball is still going to stop.

I think I was dealing with people here that understand this. I don't think there was anyone that did not know that this was in effect, let alone exist. You do not say a plunger does not work and it should be taken out of VP and only auto plungers used if someone does not pull the plunger back far enough to clear the lane. This is exactly the same thing. I don't care if you understand it, how much you have tried other things, or even if you like it or not. If you used the core settings after the discovery you would have the balls stay in play that would otherwise be lost by going right through the flippers as would happen very often and every single time you would try to do a dead catch or to try and achieve contact with the ball on the back swing of the flippers. If you and destruk was not capable of understanding this I would not have said a word. But my bet is that you guys understood this even then.

There was talk about never liking it, from the person that suggested it be put into the core. There was talk about it should be taken out, but that is gone. There was talk about flagging it with a big red flasher, and all kinds of nonsense, but there was never any of this talk at the time, or even before that thread. The discovery silenced one of VPs most annoying problems, and it was not in stead of a proper fix. It was because of the absence of a proper fix and a denial of discovery by the author, with a statement that he could not reproduce what he does not encounter so he could not fix it.

The mistake of who discovered it could have been innocent, even coming off the fight with PacDude, whom wanted to take credit for it. I don't know where you were but I doubt that destruk was oblivious to this matter. However the other stuff was just too off the wall, had no base in fact, and some were just out right lies.

If there was nothing that could be done about the problem that would have been one thing, If you had no understanding that there was, even if you did have no understanding of the concept, that would have been another. But what was should not have been. I think it's important to post honest answers. There is no good in answering a question you don't know the answer to so pull names out of a hat or just give false information. There is a lot of meanness in that thread, and there is a lot of false information and down right lies. I was mean but I did not lie or give false information. It may be because I could have actually answered that question better than either of you that irks you, but it would not explain the answer either of you gave. It may have been your only moment of disservice, but it was a major one. I did say I would go, but the disinformation continued and I went back for more. I did drop it and it should have been dropped. You should have been the last person to post in that thread after that time and the answer you were given, but you were the next. A lot of back peddling I agree and appreciate, but also one more it does not do this or that. It does not do anything. It is a simple concept to always move the flipper faster than the ball at that time and never let it get a chance to contact it, because that would always fail. 100% of the time, and everyone else wants it that way. And to be perfectly honest with you I think you and destruk actually prefer it that way than loosing every single ball that makes contact with a returning flipper. Reversed, you would have had no doubt that I was undermining you in an underhanded way.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Honest answer: There is nothing that can be done about it, short of changes in the source ... period.

I've had balls pass through flippers that were held upright. No amount of speed on the downswing is going to help, Phil.

As far as the rest of your issue with the archive, you completely removed a post, as Bob points out. This resulted in me having to remove the ability of VIPs to delete their own posts. Having to restrict all respectful VIPs, because of your childishness was yet another strike, in my mind. Even by your own admission, you would post to someone to get a rise out of them, then wait until they've read it, then delete it. Not the kind of poster I like having around, sorry. It's creepy and it's just not right.


If you actually do read the topic, you'll see it just as you left it. The red flashing strobe reference IS in there, among other things.

All this time you've accused me of 'not dropping it', yet you can see it was you up to your usual douchebaggery, while I tried to keep the topic civil and the conflict in PMs.

Who's the liar?

Thought so ...

 

[Shockman]

Fighting in PMs is not a good answer.

The part about taking it out of VP is gone and that was not even in one of my posts. I cant blame you for that though. It too should have NEVER been said.

I don't know why you keep saying that there is nothing that can be done when there is quite a number of things that will help to different degrees up to and including virtually, if not 100%, the previous effort of mine was 90% and I had the table set up to track it and record it. This is not about the balls behavior. it can at times go through a static anything including a static flipper though I have never witnesses that one. However the is was to fix that problem as well. You know as well as I do that the biggest problem was not that it would reportedly go through a static flipper every blue moon, but that it would go through a returning flipper every single time.

You crapped all over that topic, and you either had no idea what you were talking about or did it just to crap all over the topic. I will never accusing you of understanding again though. you have convinced me that you don't.

You going to be in your chat room tonight? Maybe I'll see you there.

 

[Shockman]

Why don't we meet there now?

 

[Shockman]

Thanks for the chat last night. It was very enlightening. No need to put a time on the ban though. I no longer have any interest. I will have a way to get files in a day or two and that will be all I care about.

I understand what happened now. I should not have made the comment when you said T2 had realistic flipper settings, that I could not hit anything I was trying to with them. I see that this entire fiasco is issue driven and not personal, though that makes it more wrong in my opinion, I feel much better about it.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Thanks for the chat last night. It was very enlightening. No need to put a time on the ban though. I no longer have any interest. I will have a way to get files in a day or two and that will be all I care about.

I understand what happened now. I should not have made the comment when you said T2 had realistic flipper settings, that I could not hit anything I was trying to with them. I see that this entire fiasco is issue driven and not personal, though that makes it more wrong in my opinion, I feel much better about it.

Holy NutJobs!



You are joking, right? Either that, or you weren't in the same chat I was in. That never even came up!

You truly are special, Phil.

Good riddance.

 

[lionheart88]

I thought Pacdude fixed the BTTF, didn't he fix it in the core? I don't really remember but I do remember I used to have BTTF quite a lot when I played VP and I also remember not having it happen so much at some point so somebody did something.

 

[Shockman]

Yes he did. But it made no difference. There is nothing that can be done. It is important for people to believe this. Everyone instead changed their playing style and started playing as it should be, playing the flippers instead of the ball. If there was something anyway, it would only serve to avoid loosing the ball 1 out of 800 tries I have determined.

It is normal, and there is nothing wrong with any effort to make people believe anything was done by someone that did not do it, or to support it, or perpetuate it. It is not important.

No one knows who actually did it so credit could not possibly be sorted.

There is no reason for people to think it was PacDude though, as as I have said there is no reason for an author (even one's worth their salt) to have ANY interest in the vast amounts of code that are in the .vbs files.

No VP table build would ever look into the core.vbs file to see what is in it, why certain thing work the way they do, or to get ideas. For this reason improper credit is OK, and no credit is OK too.

The work-around that does not exist is a method of returning the flipper in one step (instant) but balls would still go through the flipper in that instant anyway.

Loosing a ball in play by having it go through the flipper is better than having the return happening at a more realistic, though faster than a real machine of the re-creation sometimes anyway.

'Oz just lies about this as does Shockey, and everyone else does, except my bitches, the good members. There is nothing that can be done about the problem. Never was. Never will be.

Of course there is no explanation of basic physics or common sense that should have people believe this even without ever trying it.

Lastly it should be enough to read the admin. of VPF posting over and over and over and over and over ... that there is nothing that can be done, or it does not work, or it works to exactly such or such degree depending on my day, or my 'cycle' or anything else. The point is I said it and continue to say it so it should be as true to you as it is to me.

And The bottom line, is not, don't get confused, just the fact that people would use VP8. Why would they do that!!! It just isn't fair!!!! VP9 is king now. VP9 has fixed up keyboard nudging to be correct. No recoil is more realistic, because minuscule and negligible amounts exist in real life. Better than to not have it than to loose that small degree of loss that is actually arguable. Pros that are on the circuit can nudge a ball from the bottom of the table to the top as well as drive it like any other pulse thrust propelled device.

- Noah, via Shockey

 

[Noah Fentz]

LOL!

The other night, you were dubbed ShockTroll, but after reading that, I dub thee ...

Spin Doctor ShockTroll!