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If VP is updated, will Future Pinball still matter?

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tiltjlp

PN co-founder
No, I'm not at all against Future Pinball. How could I be against something that I haven't seen yet. I am wondering if many most of the VP community has lost interest in the project, since the last post asking for an update was 9/8, and the last post of information was 9/4 by lio. And the vast majority of posts in the thread at vpf before that had started to detour off topic.

Maybe the FP team simply doesn't have anything new to report. I do wonder why they even leaked anything about the project until they were closer to having something to release. Now, I don't know when the first rumbling about FP happened, since I was gone a while, so I don't know how long FP has been in developement. I know it can take years to create and work out the bugs in any software, so there probably isn't anything to worry about. But with UltraCade and a major update and fix for VP, it seems an odd time for Leon and lio, the main spokesmen, to be so quiet.

I could ask a lot of questions, but most of them have been asked already, so I won't repeat them. But I will ask a new question. If the fixes and update to VP gives us a greatly improved and better VP, will there still be interest in Future Pinball? And before you answer, think of the learning curve that might be involved in using Future Pinball. The better VP becomes, the more difficult it will be for FP to have the impact they have hoped for. Simply thinking out loud.

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
I think Future Pinball will probably be better for most people to make originals. OTOH, I think most people suck at making originals so.... I'm wondering if Black will ultimately end up cashing in for a deal with Ultracade in the future. FP could be used with VPM (or something similar) as a commercial program if licensed to Ultracade since they have the rights to use the games in a commercial product. I find it hard to imagine Black passing up a chance to make a buck on the side. Ultracade made it sound like they'd like to use it for a future original platform, but I can't imagine the need unless they plan to compete directly against Stern with new original games or something.

As for the average Joe User, he's only going to really like FP if his favorite games are available for it or if there are some REALLY nice originals for it. I'm sure the average author will like to play with it but will ultimately make the same crappy games most of them currently make. Their posts and lights will look a bit better and they'll have the camera zoom around crappy layouts with crappy rules and try to get someone to say WOW. A flyby of a crappy table! Unreal! (yeah exactly)

I think the people that will be the happiest will someone that makes non-rom recreations and can't do lighting or other effects in VP as FP will make some of those things very easy to do (prepare to see mega reflections on everything; I don't even like the amount Kurt uses most of the time as you just don't see it that much in real world situations unless your nose is on the glass).

Ah well. The Future is largely unchangeable. If you will not turn to the dark side then you will meet your destiny!
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
You know your comments, about crappy tables, me wonders did you ever post to Rob about such comments or ???

Heck, how about the two crappy originals I've made, I know you would be on the wrong side of that poll.

Just bemusing. :)
 

yogiholzer

Pinball Wizard
I don't have any opinion. It's future. You don't know if it will ever see the light of day.

Who cares about now. I like and want to play the tables now and there is no alternative.
I don't have access to most of the real tables.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
StevOz said:
You know your comments, about crappy tables, me wonders did you ever post to Rob about such comments or ???

Heck, how about the two crappy originals I've made, I know you would be on the wrong side of that poll.

Just bemusing. :)

I have to agree with Steve on this one Dude. While quality is such a subjective thing, I have come to realize that what I might see as junk other people see as treasures. I will say that there are loads of tables that focus too much on sounds and music and not enough on playbility and sound ball flow. So maybe I don't really disagree that muchwith your comments but more with the way you presented them.

John
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
"I don't even like the amount Kurt uses most of the time as you just don't see it that much in real world situations unless your nose is on the glass). "

Sometimes I wonder if you ever have played a real pinball machine.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
The difference is Rob insults specific tables (typically the ones he's replacing or modding). I'm not giving even one example of a table I think is crappy and I'm certainly not saying I think they're ALL crappy. I'm just saying with thousands of origianls out there, how many are REALLY good? How many are even remotely good? Now be honest.

Most originals I've looked at look like someone took the default table and dropped a few bumpers on it and some theme name and call it a finished product (or darn close to it). Most people don't even reshape the default flippers or add inlane guides and just keep the default VP generates which look RIDICULOUS. A recent look in the originals WIP area on VPF doesn't change my mind any. Now if you even disagree with that statement, I'd have to say you're probably smoking something illegal. There's probably a reason the majority of real world table is made in large teams, not by single individuals. In VP, it's a bit easier, but still requires skills in multiple areas and it seems fare fewer have ALL those skills than I ever imagined. Shiva's table was pretty impressive, but then he spent a good 3+ years on it. Who else has with an original? No one that I know of. I don't think it has to take that long, but clearly you can't expect to bang one out in 2 days time like you can with some of the simpler VPM recreations (where the flow, rules, artwork and sound have already been worked out by someone else long ago) without it looking and/or playing like CRAP.

As for the reflection comment, I was referring to playfield reflections, not things like chrome or steel where you obviously would expect to see a reflection, although even there it seems strange to me that VP balls can't no reflections while everything else on the table does and so it catches my eye. Maybe they're Vampire balls or something?

I was going to show an example of an original table i cranked out in 5 minutes as a joke on VPFF after my account got deleted by a bug (called Big Beefy), but there seems to be no attachment thing in this forum. Even though I tried to capture the typical original look, somehow it still isn't as bad as some I've seen as at least it's humorous.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I's not that I disagree with you, especially not your last comments, only that it's bluntness might upset some folks. But then again, if someone is upset when you haven't mentioned names might say a lot about the truth in what you do say.

I glaring exceptions to your comments, most notably StevOz and Bob, as we as the Aussie brothers, does tend to make certain other tables look bad in comparison. But new authors can shine right from the beginning. UncleT has just released his 3rd bagatelle, two which are Poosh M Ups with 5 way scoring, and his attention to detail, and willingness to listen to advice, make him stand out from the crowd.

Now myself, I lack most of the skills needed to put me on any top author list. But I do try to tweak every table, especially my flippered originals, so that they are the best I can make. I like to think my attention to detail lifts my work at least a notch or two above pond scum. Besides, if I didn't focus on flipperless and trade stimulators, which no one else has, I'm not sure I'd keep making tables. I'm in it more as an historian than anything.

John
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
I doubt very much there will ever be a orginal like Trigon. 3 years was very... well anal... to continue to work on, but it was really one year, as it was redone completely from scratch, once I had learned all the tools needed. Personally, I have learned more since then, but I would rather work on other projects.
As to Future Pinball, it may look good, but it's rather interesting that it still hasn't seen the light of day yet. I have some interest in it, as it could make life a bit easier (or harder, as Black is the programmer after all, and it appears to be even more complex) but I think I will stick with VP, despite the numerous bugs and fustrating things about it. After 6 years, you pick up some tricks after all, and if you are really willing to learn photoshop, and experiment in the editor, you can get some pretty realistic posts, objects, and lighting effects. just takes time to learn is all.
Orginals, well most of them are pretty bad. A lot of them could be a lot better if people, when they asked for comments, they actually listened to the comments. There were some tables that could have been improved big time with just a few simple corrections, but if people would rather have a pat on the head, then fine. Personally, I have a dog I can pat on the head whenever I feel like it, and if the table is not enjoyable, I have a delete button as well.
 

kristian

Pinball Wizard
Future Pinball... hmm... what was that again? I vaguely remember reading something about that years ago... has it been released yet? ;)
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
It will be released in the FUTURE. It reminds me of a sign at Joe's Crab shack that says "Free crab tomorrow!" I've always wanted to photograph that sign with a date on it and then come in the next day and say hey, this sign yesterday says free crab tomorrow which is today. Hand it over! Frankly, I think they could be sued if they don't hand it over as it's fraud at that point.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I might take a look at FP if and when it's released, but I'll most probably stay with VP too, since things seem harder to learn nowadays. And making flipperless, a lot of the preceived benefits of FP won't be a factor. Besides, I have several tables with all my copy and paste parts, as well as plug in code pieces. Well, we should find something out before long, I'd think. The next time Leon is over here he'll see this thread and flame and insult us all for not praising FP. But why praise something that might end up being vaporware?

John
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
The real question is whether Black will end up hawking it to Ultracade in the end (especially if he doesn't feel like updating it like Randy and just have them do it instead).
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
I heard they already had a deal in place for Future Pinball and Ultracade - for originals only (no VPinMame, and no Visual Pinball compatibility options).

But until anything happens, it's just business as usual. only 3 crashes tonight because I didn't run any precautionary tools. Once while copying lights, once for clicking a wall, and once just because VP felt like it. :) Got a lot done anyway.
 

PacDude

Pinball Wizard
Yeah, I had some stupid crashes too with VP7 (one while saving, one while editing the script and one while clicking on something).

Even so, I got my 3 Ballys in progress (Space Invaders, Silverball Mania and Viking) scripted. Once I get the lights done and the gameplay tweaked, they'll be done.
 
G

Guest

Guest
tiltjlp said:
But why praise something that might end up being vaporware?

John

Tsk. Tsk.
Such negativity.

Version 1 of Future Pinball in about 2 weeks.
FP Forums now open and FP Manual available for download.
:p :p :p :p :p :p
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo Wanker said:
tiltjlp said:
But why praise something that might end up being vaporware?

John

Tsk. Tsk.
Such negativity.

Version 1 of Future Pinball in about 2 weeks.
FP Forums now open and FP Manual available for download.
:p :p :p :p :p :p

Now Leon, to be honest, you hadn't shilled Future Pinball in over a month, so my wondering wasn't uncalled for, as you seem to imply. I think you let the PR ball drop, and so now rather than simply an appropriate announcement, you admonish me. Proof that you did fall down on your duties is how mild your rebuke is. If you had a leg to stand on as far as doing your PR properly, you would have unloaded both barrels on me.

As proof that I'm not either anti Black or anti FP, i have registered at the FP forums and downloaded the FP manual. I was surprised to see that you aren't listed as part of the FP development team nor as one of the FP forum staff. I would have thought that you would have had your friendship, loyalty, and shilling rewarded. Of course you'll put a positive spin on all of this, and probably bash me for even mentioning it, but it does seem odd.

And yes, I'll not only DL FP in two weeks, I'll even see how easily I can create tables with it. Since I make mostly flipperless stuff, I'll be a bit surprised if there are any benefits for me or Patrick. And of course if I use FP or not will depend on Patrick. As a team, we'll both need to be on the same page on this.

John
 
G

Guest

Guest
tiltjlp said:
Now Leon, to be honest, you hadn't shilled Future Pinball in over a month, so my wondering wasn't uncalled for, as you seem to imply. I think you let the PR ball drop, and so now rather than simply an appropriate announcement, you admonish me. Proof that you did fall down on your duties is how mild your rebuke is. If you had a leg to stand on as far as doing your PR properly, you would have unloaded both barrels on me.

I have a life outside of the internet. I have had to take care of that.
Sorry, I don't do barrels anymore as I really can't be bothered dealing with bozo's.

tiltjlp said:
As proof that I'm not either anti Black or anti FP, i have registered at the FP forums and downloaded the FP manual. I was surprised to see that you aren't listed as part of the FP development team nor as one of the FP forum staff. I would have thought that you would have had your friendship, loyalty, and shilling rewarded. Of course you'll put a positive spin on all of this, and probably bash me for even mentioning it, but it does seem odd.

I am but, a mere tester. Nothing more. I have never asked for any more.
I would have turned down a staff position had it been offered. It make no difference to me. Is that positive enough? Your baiting and I just can't be bothered.

tiltjlp said:
And yes, I'll not only DL FP in two weeks, I'll even see how easily I can create tables with it. Since I make mostly flipperless stuff, I'll be a bit surprised if there are any benefits for me or Patrick. And of course if I use FP or not will depend on Patrick. As a team, we'll both need to be on the same page on this.

John

I think you will find flipperless tables will be excelent under FP.
There is no reason in the world why they shouldn't.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
I have no doubt flipperless tables will be fantastic under Future Pinball, my main concern is how difficult it'll be for me to make them since I'm a total non-tech, and very much the clutz. I'll also be interested to see how much more work it'll be to make tables in both VP and FP formats. I'm definately interested, just doubtful of my ability to make sense of another program, one which is most probably a lot more involved that VP. And coming from you Leon, I'll wear my Bozo label with pride. :p

John
 
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