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Is there a target painted on my back?

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shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Not upset by the silly forum G, just by the people there who get away with lies, slander and falsehoods, without any punishment or any action by the staff there. I'm getting just a little tired of having my name dragged through the mud by these people, and just because it's the internet, and not real life, means that you don't have to put up with it. It's lies, it's slander, and it's totally and delibrately false and misleading, and it's done with the sole purpose of destroying not only my personal reputation, and others who have been attacked as well. Yet no one on VPF has ever done anything about it, which makes my above statement true then doesn't it?

Though I disagree with shocky on his methods of stating things, I can understand his fustration. He's banned there for whatever reason, I choose the easy option, not go there anymore. All it will do is just upset me anyway, but I guess VPF really don't seem to care about that.
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
Try to lighten up, you would be a better mod.
I should lighten up? That's interesting advice coming from you, who's apparently been on a several year rant over a single episode.

You really should think about what I'm trying to say to you rather than dismissing me as a bad moderator yet again. Lots of things suck. There are things that happen here that drive me absolutely nuts. There are things that drive me nuts at VPF too, and there always have been. I suspect we have those things in common, no? But where the paths diverged was that you decided to go on a crusade against those who wronged you, and I decided to walk away and come back when I was more calm about things. Our choices have led to vastly different outcomes as you well know. You can't call that luck. They're choices. Since you like your actions having consequences, none of this should be a problem for you.
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
shiva said:
Not upset by the silly forum G, just by the people there who get away with lies, slander and falsehoods, without any punishment or any action by the staff there. I'm getting just a little tired of having my name dragged through the mud by these people, and just because it's the internet, and not real life, means that you don't have to put up with it. It's lies, it's slander, and it's totally and delibrately false and misleading, and it's done with the sole purpose of destroying not only my personal reputation, and others who have been attacked as well. Yet no one on VPF has ever done anything about it, which makes my above statement true then doesn't it?
I think the bulk of that happened with you was before I was a regular there, so it's very difficult for me to comment on. Had it happened the way you described, I certainly would have had issue with it.

Though I disagree with shocky on his methods of stating things, I can understand his fustration. He's banned there for whatever reason, I choose the easy option, not go there anymore. All it will do is just upset me anyway, but I guess VPF really don't seem to care about that.
Well I do, because to me you seem like a stand up guy with a level head on your shoulders. But again I think what you're talking about may be history too old for me to have any knowledge of. If there were something I could do to right it for you I wouldn't mind trying, but I suppose it's too late for that in your eyes.

The really ironic thing about all of this is that in the same thread we can see Shockman being upset that the site is too tightly moderated and you being upset that it's not moderated enough. Just further proof that it's not possible to please everyone.
 

GHoSTFaCe

Pinball Wizard
John, my apologies for hijacking your thread... But hey, now you're not alone, we both have targets! :D
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
But they HAVE to keep PacDude happy.
I disagree with my methods of stating things too. Who'd of thunk it? It just don't work. I'll have to try another way. Maybe learning aussie talk would work. It has got to be some communication error. I never said what they said I did. They can't really think I said I was going to show up and do harm to them when I said I was going to come after the money return for real. They did however say that I would be confined to the AC, which meant PM and file server access. It just comes down to them doing what they want, for any reason that they can get away with. I see The Loafer back on the staff, and Mr. StayPuft on the online list now, and some others. It is clear to me that these guys wanted back, but wanted me gone first, and this staff found a way.
I bet that they can not go 3 months without pissing off PacDude, and he pack up and leave there too.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
I can almost hear JOHNNIE RAY singing in the background....


If your moderator sends a letter of goodbye
It's no secret you'll feel better if you cry
When waking from a bad dream
Don't you sometimes think it's real
But it's only false emotions that you feel

If your heartaches seem to hang around too long
And your blues keep getting bluer with each song
Remember sunshine can be found behind the cloudy skies
So let your hair down and go on and cry

If your heartaches seem to hang around too long
And your blues keep getting bluer with each song
Well now, remember sunshine can be found
Behind a cloudy sky
So let your hair down and go right on and cry

:curtain:
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
TMFP always has been a big PD fan. :)

Of course it's ancient history, I haven't logged into VPF in 10 months or so, but I'm pretty sure that my point is still being made, even if I don't actually have to see it anymore. Why should I even step foot in there when that's the kind of thing I get? I'm a pretty good developer in my own right, I even just showed a wip, yet if I did that at VPF, how long do you think it would take for certain people to sharpen their knives? That's the kind of site you want? Fine, you can have it, it's your decision, it's your responsibility, and it's your right until you are told differently. Just don't expect me to like that kind of treatment, and don't expect me to support a site like that (Sorry Nic)

If I feel unwelcome there, it's because I do. I have had a lot of crap dished at me, right or wrong, but if a bunch of tables are more important to the community than what is legally and morally right, then it is a lot simplier for me to just stay away. After all, what I don't know won't kill me, and there's no use in even asking that the site follow the basic rules that are set, you kind of expect that to happen.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
A lot of rhetoric as usual and very little if any substance.

Legal and morally right, sorry that's just not the case, it's called freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression cannot be controlled.

As for your defamation of character, to begin with, you've got to have character to be defamed. Obviously, being anonymous on the internet kind of prevents that. Not only that, but in a defamation case, you have to be able to prove your losses. You can't just go into court saying you were a saint until....

It also takes two to tango as they say.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Freedom of expression is covered by the same rules in the internet as they are in real life. American owner, american server, american server host, american law. If you do a simple search, (I believe CNN would be a good case) then the laws of the country will also apply to the internet, and has been enforced.

That's why if something like this happened on my site, I would have to take action. Not because I don't believe in freedom of speech, because I do, or because I have a personal vendetta, it's because I have to. I will use the old site as a example, I'm a canadian citizen, the site was on a canadian server, and was subject to the laws both federally, and provincially as well, as well as having to follow the TOS of my hosting company. Canadian law is strict on certain things, and it doesn't matter whether or not it's anonyomous or not, because it's not considered to be any different. As the site owner, I could still be held legally responsible for any breach, even if it's minor, and that would include even this.

It still doesn't change the fact that VPF allows this to happen. I don't feel that's right, I guess you disagree with that, but all I am doing is stating how I feel about it, is all.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
If you want to try, you can. However, it would be libel. And I think most would consider you a repeated public figure (site admin).

A public figure may be an elected or appointed (a politician) or someone who has stepped into a public controversy (e.g., movie stars and TV stars, star athletes). Public figures have a "harder road to toll" than the average person since they must prove that the party defaming them knew the statements were false, made them with actual malice, or was negligent in saying or writing them. Proving these elements makes the chance of a successful lawsuit slim. I don't see why anyone 'has to' prosecute for something which is not financially profitable. But then again I'm not a Klingon.

If your reasoning was correct, I would start my own messageboard, and be rude to everyone on it and insult them and everything, and when they insulted me back and hurt my reputation I could sue them all to live the good life. I don't think it works that way as usually those forums shut down and are never heard from again. I'm not saying in any way it was that extreme in your situation, but proving how much money you have lost due to defamation or lies in a message forum posting is kinda hard to do. And you don't 'have to' do anything or you would have started doing it already. So I call your bluff.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
:mrgreen:
ofdb3r.jpg

:p
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
The law is applied equally on the internet, and all laws are applied, not just a select few. Several sites have been shut down and the person responsible have been held accountable, even for character issues (there was a story on CNN a couple months ago about that) but I haven't stated anything other than the fact the rules of conduct at VPF as set by the staff are not enforced. I am still a member there, and I expect that those rules should be enforced equally, to everyone, and not to a select few while ignoring others.

The odd thing is the staff at VPF seem to be a lot more proactive here than at VPF. You can all say how hard it is to be a staff member, and it is, but then, it doesn't wash with me if you are more willing to argue about it here rather than actually doing anything about it there, even if there are breaches of your own rules. In the last year, how many posts has there been when two members go hammer and tongs at each other, even though it's clearly stated that no personal attacks, flames etc be allowed, and yet it's allowed to happen, even though it's clearly way over the line? And if a member states something that is untrue, and you know it's not true, then why is he/she allowed to say it? Isn't that againest your own rules as well?

You cannot be selective, it's your responsibility that you took yourself, and that is to run the forum equally and fairly for all people, whether they are table devs, players, members of that site, or even for people that don't visit the site. That is the responsibility you took, and it doesn't matter who it is either. I expect those rules to be enforced equally for everyone at VPF as per your own site guidelines, because that's your responsibilty when you took the job, just like everyone else would expect the same thing whether they speak up or not.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
nicolas.b said:
wow, al roker looks like a million bucks. since when did he lose all that weight??

We have a winner and it's still February. This has to be the "Off Topic Post Of The Year" without a doubt.

BTW Bob, nice that someone remembers Johnny Ray. What a great singer and a tragic story.
 

Isaac Sauvage

Meep!
Site Supporters
@shiva,

1) the formatting is screwed up on this page so i can only read the left side of your posts without having to scroll back and forth endlessly, so i'm guestimating a little here.

2) we only take responsibility for the last six months of VPF operation- if you have issue with the last year or longer it's pointless to rant any more ranterrific rants here rantedly. i.e. not a thing we can do except maybe rant back at you about how our shampoo doesn't get every last little bit of dandruff out of our scratchy scalps. can you do something about that and when, exactly?

3) the VPF staff has no responsibility to live up to any standard here. we're just hanging out, yknow- not that we talked about it or anything. for me it's just an interesting place to get a non-VPF perspective, not that i check here as often as i could.

4) if you had been following VPF the last few months you would know exactly why certain fights have been allowed to continue there and what the experiment is that's being conducted and what the name of the experiment is.

you don't like to visit there? okay, i understand that. but it's not our fault that you don't, and it's not our fault that you don't know current events and furthermore i might point out that you're doing one of the same things to VPF that you repeatedly complain about people doing to you and shivasite- namely drawing conclusions based on incomplete or faulty information.

well that was a little more on topic methinks.
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
sorry about screwing up the formatting Nic :)

maybe we could get an admin to take care of that for us...

I'd like to help shiva, but I have no clue about what his rants are about.
He probably has received more praise than any member there outside of authors release threads
But then I've only been around since 2002
Maybe he could inform us newbies of the problem.
 

da_prez

Funken Druck
Site Supporters
the formatting issue is because of bob's picture, it throws the whole page out of whack.

i don't see a favortism issue myself at the root of this,
it is basically, and this is my opinion only, that no one wants to be the bad guy at VPF.

i have never believed that a pinball forum should be a bastion of free speech, and claims that it should are ludicris IMO.

if someone crosses whatever line then they should be dealt with, regardless of contribution.
a simple infraction requires very little interaction, and major infraction requires serious consequence.

when shiva, tilt, myself, stevoz and a couple of others were writing up "the rules" at shivaSite, we were sure to include the line :
"staff has the right to delete, edit, change, move, etc any post without reason or warning"
to me this is always necessary, because i don't feel the need to argue for a fucking month or years, over why something was done.

i am not a mod for some power trip, i am a mod to try and keep stuff on topic and flame free.
at VPF the endless mumbo jumbo of rules and regulations make just about any moderation im-fucking-possible.

i have repeatedly said that if the rules are in the way of the staff, maybe we should rethink em,
this has largely been met with much discussion, but no changes ....

the free for all zone "the argument clinic" is a step in the right direction,
but ALOT more needs to be done to bring everyone back.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Oh come on, we try to be fair, also, the law is not applied equally, especially in the real world. A certain recent shooting comes to mind for some reason.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
bob said:
Test.... John, can you see the pic below? It's the pic from the Ghost train thread that you just said you couldn't see the attachment. I figured I test this here since we've once again went off-topic in this thread.

*edited by StevOz, at bobs request to restore forum width.

You can view the picture in this thread.


http://www.pinballnirvana.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1268

No, I can't see it here, but Yogi was nice enough to send me an e-mail with the SS of Ghost Train, and it really looks awesome. Hope it plays as good as it looks. And as for being on or off topic, that's no big deal.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Well John I suppose you could have obtained the picture via FTP, though that would not have been easy to find. :!:
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
When Jon and I first started this site, or should I say The Magic Of Flipperless which became Flipperless.com which became Pinball Nirvana, we had 1 rule, and that was, Don't Make A Fool Of Yourself. That worked fairly well until Neptune came around. Now our rules are slightly more involved, but still pretty darn loose. We now have rules of conduct for the staff, which are basically common sense. The best any site can hope for is to satisfy the majority of its members. Without a poll, I would imagine that most of our members don't mind a curse word now and then but would rather not be subjected to page long posts filled with either flames, personal attacks, or profanity. Of course links to warzes and porn are outlawed, but not much else. I can only use my best judgement, which isn't always as flawless as I would hope, but I always have to good of the site in mind whenever I take any action.

It's easy to run a site when everything goes along smoothly, but it's far from easy when something goes wrong. When the wheels begin to wobble I try to repair the problem before the wheel falls off. Even when actions I've taken have seemed to back fire, I have done so for the right reason. If I wanted to, I could repost Admin discussions and communications that show that I wasn't wrong in what I did a few weeks ago, but I don't post private communicatios, so folks can either believe what Pacdude has and continues to say, or come to their own conclusions. I acted in what I felt was the good of the site, Pacdude acted in what he felt was his on best interests. When such attitudes converge, sometimes things clash. He is still going on about me at vpf, this is the last I'll say on the topic. I have no ill will toward him and never did. I simply felt that he lost sight of his role as an Admin here.
 
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