Is wikileaks.org Offline?

sleepy

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Maybe they are offline for maintenance, I dunno, but I was able to download the site yesterday and now they are not available here.
Are you getting the page?

http://wikileaks.org/
 
*cough* C.I.A. *cough*
 
Aww....bring them on!
 
The company doing DNS for the .org kicked them off, they moved to Switzerland and have a .ch address now:

http://wikileaks.ch/

I didn't mind them exposing some of the abuses and unreported civilian casualties but this latest round seems pointless, it's not exposing any criminal activities and could hurt diplomatic relationships. Some things do need to be kept secret in order to save lives.
 
Try here....;)

http://213.251.145.96/

Since when should the truth be kept secret?

Lives saved or lives that should not have been taken or put at risk?
 
Since when should the truth be kept secret?

Lives saved or lives that should not have been taken or put at risk?

You can't seriously think there should be no secret operations or diplomatic talks? As if there were zero evil people in the world that are in powerful positions and no one needs to do anything about them...

If the reason peoples lives are being taken or put at risk is corrupt then you expose evidence of that, but once people are at risk you don't expose information that could kill them.

And if there are people planning an attack or brutalizing their own people and there is a secret operation to stop them, then that should be kept secret. It's starting to look like wikileaks would release information like that if they had it.
 
Why should any diplomatic talks be secret, to hide the truth from the people, the same people that elected these diplomats to look after the peoples interests?

Since when can information kill? It can't and just as those that might use that information to endanger another, that other can use that same information to avoid said endangerment.

Oo er a secret op to save people, more likely it's a secret op to empower others and endanger innocents. I cannot recall of any secret operation that at it's conclusion has ever been revealed to do anyone any good.
 
I am still getting this...

It's still not an active site at all...this is what i get when I click on your site, I am gonna' try to type it in myself to see if maybe it's your link that's corrupted.. so hang on...nah still nothing, can't help you, what kind of site was it may I ask?
 

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I appreciate how we don't want to push anyone's buttons,
but I really do believe that when lives are endangered, it is because the powers that be are going to do it either way, talk or not, to expand their powers. Power deprives the individual to perpetuate itself.
If somebody is going to aim their guns in my direction then they had better use it because I am going to talk about it very loudly, but to everyone else and not to the powers that be.

Like The Viet Nam Papers. The war should have been talked about with the singular object of aiding exile for the S. Vietnamese in the same manner as mainland China and Taiwan. Instead, we went with secrecy and threats while propping up an unstable and questionable government at the expense of many of the lives we were pledged to save, and carpet bombings.
 
It's a shame wikileaks didn't expose the 9-11 threats prior to 9-11.
 
Things need to be secrete but not kept secrete.

Not saying we are planning something, not saying something is underway, is one thing. But saying it never was, or this or that never happened is another thing and there may not be the need that drives that protocol in many cases. In the end it paints a picture depending on the situation (agent Orange, and such) of deceit and almost evil. Techniques (equipment, methods) for national security though need to be kept secrete.

If you are exposed in doing something wrong, coming clean is always in order. Being exposed for doing something that was necessary depending on the methods, or just pertaining to the methods perhaps not.
 
I do agree with Steve's viewpoint, but, at the same time, this latest Wikileak seems to be about triviality more than transparency. Sleepy mentioned the Pentagon Papers, which uncovered the government's ongoing campaign to lie to its citizens about a deadly and divisive war. The latest Wikileaks, in comparison, could have found a home on TMZ.com. No matter how international, gossip is still gossip. Can't wait 'til Wikileaks posts all the Mel Gibson tapes!
 
So why is trivial gossip a big deal?
Maybe we the people are the ones being played this time.
 
MrSchultz said:
it's not exposing any criminal activities and could hurt diplomatic relationships.
Speak for yourself!! Since Investigative journalism is (almost) dead, I would have no idea of just how low some of the individuals in the Australian Government have stooped on the international stage'.

The prerequisite; the essential component of a functional Democracy is accurate information. Is it any wonder then that political lobbies (including intra-governmental 'special interest groups') use manipulation of information as a tool to steer the 'Democracy' in the direction most beneficial to themselves.

Finally we have a voice to counter the 'special interest' media like NewsCop ...er NewsCorp sorry. The Viscious assault on wikileaks is proof of it's effectiveness in countering such special interests. Democracy get's a 2nd chance to become functional again.

During the 2nd world war, it was deemed moral to use the latest in explosive ordnance to save lives, at the cost of 100's of thousands of other lives.
sleepy said:
It's a shame wikileaks didn't expose the 9-11 threats prior to 9-11.
I know you say this with tongue in cheek, but wikileaks:
a) Didn't exist then (indeed it was the Iraq war which was partly responsible for it's formation) and
b) Is dependent on whistleblowers wrestling with their consciences and deciding to take personal responsibility for exposing what they perceive as wrongdoing. e.g. The Pentagon papers already mentioned by sleepy. The necessary condition for a leak is a cognitive dissonance between the knowledge of a groups actions held by an individual and his or her personal belief in the principles behind those actions. Members of a cult generally do not fulfill this requirement.

There were other ways of dealing with the odious Saddam Hussein - a pre-Iraq-invasion wikileak may have saved 100's of thousands of lives, both Arab and coalition - and given us the vital information we needed to put paid to the raft of lies we were fed and throw those responsible out of governement and back onto the boards of corporations ;)

Just as Anthony Russo was lambasted as a traitor and character-assasinated for publishing the pentagon papers (even though it was a private who leaked them), wikileaks and it's spokesman are being treated the same way. These guys are the messengers, not the news. Anthony Russo is now celebrated as a hero of truth and decency, history will likely similarly judge Julian Asange. History will not remember Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh, or if it does, they will be held up as Pariahs and purveyers of 'Schill' and 'Hate' journalism. Hate is a powerful (but temporary) force, as many Tyrants have found through the ages. If the citizens of Germany had access to the 'secrets' of pre-Nazi germany (such as the burning of the Reichstag by the SA and blamed on Jewish 'terrorists'), plausible deniability would have been effectively negated. He would never have been voted into office.

[Thread Crossover with 'Quotes']
'Logic clearly dictates, captain, that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' ~ Spock

Once we learn to become citizens again and take an active role in the execution of government rather than handing over our power (thus absolving ourselves from any responsibilty one way or the other) to these special interest groups, our democracies will once again become representative. Ever noticed the word 'public' hidden away in the word 'Republic'? hmmmmm?
 
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Speak for yourself!! Since Investigative journalism is (almost) dead, I would have no idea of just how low some of the individuals in the Australian Government have stooped on the international stage'.

You took half of my sentence for your quote and changed the meaning of it.

The full sentence was: "I didn't mind them exposing some of the abuses and unreported civilian casualties but this latest round seems pointless, it's not exposing any criminal activities and could hurt diplomatic relationships."

They are not journalists, if they were journalists they would go through the stuff and use it to write about something that they thought was illegal or wrong, this is just dumping out raw data that could do more harm than good.

I still have yet to read of any criminal activities exposed by the diplomatic cable dump.
 
Once we learn to become citizens again and take an active role in the execution of government rather than handing over our power (thus absolving ourselves from any responsibilty one way or the other) to these special interest groups, our democracies will once again become representative. Ever noticed the word 'public' hidden away in the word 'Republic'? hmmmmm?

Well, as long as parading the behaviors of our public officials constitutes full disclosure then it is meaningless and we who are burdened by the deliberate uselessness of these disclosures will continue to be doomed by newspeak.

No, what we need is to Demand our governments and their offices to open up The Complaint Process to full public disclosure. Every office, every department and every public hospital and police department must be required by us to provide a webpage for each function: for public posting of complaints exactly like this forum for instance.

Consider this. We never know the length and depth of the complaints people have with regards to our governments or their dealings with these functions of government. A hospital or police complaint is by default kept secret from the people and the Devil is in the details for that.
Imagine going to a public hospital website and on the complaints page being able to read the literal streams of complaints involving malpractice, abuse and death for a change instead of knowing nothing at all about these matters for either being quietly dismissed by our representatives due to the difficulties of the legal process for the victims, or when these issues do make it to court, due to the typical out-of-court settlement with no resultant correction in the systemic abuses.
In California the local Counties are permitted buy law to put aside millions in annual tax revenue exactly to cover their legal liabilities instead of being obligated to correct them.

We should demand a system that allows public complaint posting instead of waiting for the do nothing dog and pony show.
 
Sleepy the Citizen

Sleepy, your post is an inspiration; A perfect example of the sorts of behavior a politically aware and functioning citizen must exhibit in order to employ the most powerful instrument at their disposal for influencing their world, and the world of others: Their Representative Govern.ment, an institution which, when healthy, delivers a quality of life we broadly think of as 'fair', not just a concept, is it provably and irrevocably woven into our deepest material fabric, our genes.

The original designers of this social mechanism naturally assumed that citizens living within it would act in accordance with what we now call 'rational self-interest', for indeed those who did design it certainly crafted it to suit their self-interests :no: .

But thanks to the political 'criminals' of the times who were vilified (e.g. the suffregettes) eventually most people won the right to have a voice in how things that intimately affected their day-to-day lives.

A powerful point here is that real, live people fought and suffered for the very rights we take for granted and often neglect to exercise.

After those first bold but faltering steps, Democracy has proven to be the worst form of government, but better than all the rest we've managed to come up with so far on this ole rock of ours , as we formed ever-larger and more complex groups as pre-human-ship to our current form as H.Sapiens. It has it's flaws and dangers (indeed Socrates was amongst the first to realise that it was vulnerable to what he called 'mob rule').

Incredibly, modern media (often employing very expensive marketing psychologists) and political support groups can convince astonishingly large numbers of people to vote against their own self-interest, through clever psychological manipulation ,raising exactly the spectre that Socrates had warned about.

Is it any wonder that the political vacuum we created through collectively neglecting our necessary participation in the Democracy upon which it ultimatey depends, was filled by special interest groups who don't have the welfare of the citizenry in mind but rather a very narrow subset of it.

Sleepy has beautifully demonstrated the type of Democratic Spark which must be present in a properly functioning Democracy. He's put the Representative back into Liberal Represtative Democracy ('Liberal' in this context means encompassing and fulfilling the needs and dreams of as many individuals as possible). In that context a healthy democracy has a constant dialogue with itself.

But so long as enough people are paying attention and putting in their 2cents worth, it unavoidably delivers a compromise Society in which the great majority of it's citizens can live pretty satisfying and fulfilled lives, and periodically contribute to the continuing improving of the their own and others' lives with special consideration for (and participation in) that part of the process designed to continually improve the architecture of 'The System' and the collective will of the citizenship itself.

****

MrSchulz, I really shouldn't have quoted you and I apologise. I should have just said that I was grateful that those particuar documents were brought out into the light. Your point about the definition of a journalist is well taken. If Investigaive journalism was alive and well, there would be less need for a site like wikileaks to exist at all.

So they're not journalists, but enablers, allowing the consience-ridden whistleblower a place to dump what they have (hopefully) judged be made public to be in the best intersets of the group as a whole. The material can then be analysed by journalists/writers, etc, for research,analysis and documenting.

Yes some the information was very sensitive and may have put lives at risk, and wikileaks is making big calls discriminating between public-need-to-know and Official Secrets, the keeping of which is rationally and sincerely to the benefit to the greater goup.

One things for sure Corporate bodies (military, commercial, governmental) may be a little wary from now on and perhaps clean up their collective act, with the spectre of being humiliatingly exposed globally just a mouseclick away. This may very well be a catalyst for reforms leading to the more transparent forms of Government, as sleepy describes.

Big Rep Again Sleepy!!! And sorry again to MrSchultz - I wasn't trying to attack you, and the quote was more than half just a little bit of fun.:cheers:
 
No, what we need is to Demand our governments and their offices to open up The Complaint Process to full public disclosure. Every office, every department and every public hospital and police department must be required by us to provide a webpage for each function: for public posting of complaints exactly like this forum for instance.

In theory this could be great, but if you read product reviews posted by the public on just about any site you'll find a lot of people complain about stuff that is really their own fault (not reading the instructions, thinking a product would do something that it clearly wasn't meant to, etc). Then go to the open comments on just about any news story and you get so many people posting nonsense.

I've seen some sites where comments can be flagged good or bad, too many negative flags and the comment gets hidden (but can still be viewed by clicking on it). That would be a necessity on an complaint system for public offices/services.

There would be a lot of garbage posts to sift through, but probably could be made to work.

The death of newspapers is what's really hurting journalism, TV news just doesn't go after the same types of stories as print.
 
The formal complaint form needs to be adhered to on such websites, time, location, comments/story, etc. however by all Rights, so-called "off-topic" posts should not be deleted, but moved to an "off-topic forum" with similar topic subheadings. I myself have been frustrated at news blogs, forums, etc. by the lack of a suitable topic to vent a wrongdoing of a related nature. Often a news blog will delete even the slightest off-topic, or delete comments from "out-of-town", even as the U.S. Constitution protects local citizen's privileges and extends those privileges to all citizens in all States.
Of course, the press does not own the Right to censor. I think the idea was to protect citizen's Free Speech in Print, particularly in matters of government or powers.
The other problem is when your printer's devil also owns the politicians, quite frequently by relation in inheritance, or nepotism, along with the use of an alias or two.

The Rights in America, or for The World, to Free Speech and Press in order to defend in the name of the people is, I think, to be upheld, though managed discreetly.
 
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Mastercard, Paypal, and now Bank of America have pulled transaction services for wikileaks.
Snooping on banking information sounds dicey, but if we don't then the potential problem becomes one of corporate dominance in our governments and laws against the people.
Corporations are often abusive. How can we achieve balance between so-called Corporate Rights and Justice? By making sure these corporations are operating as A Public Corporation with full disclosure and full public access and not as a typical covert phony corporation of dummy stockholders which is still privately controlled by specific "owners".
 
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