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Long Live Future Pinball

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
In spite of the shortcomings of the Newton engine, and Black's possible unwillingness or inability to allow as much freedom and creativity as most FP authors would like, FP seems to be gaining a life of its own. Just as VP authors have found workarounds for the failings of VP, so have FP authors, up to a point. Although FP doesn't support either DMD displays or ramps, there are FP tables with DMDs and ramps of a sort. Now if only there was some way to "fake" a dropping wall, I'd be happy as a lark.

According to Black, the next update for FP is due out around Easter. While I may be proven wrong yet again, I think this is the "make it or not" release. If ramps appear in this version, FP will have a chance to become the Hit many people have been hoping for. DMD support would be a plus. It sounds like Blacks may have also solved the ball through flipper problem, in spite of Newton issues. And while I do hope the best for FP and FP authors, Black's reluctance to allow more and better flexability than is possible with VP speaks well of VP's continuation.

Maybe I misunderstood Black's intentions, or maybe a Flipperless Template is still in the works, but a Ballyhoo style cabinet is not at all what I asked for, and which I thought Black had promised. But then, since Black isn't a flipperless author, possibly he doesn't really know what a Flipperless Template is. But the dropping walls I also asked for will probably never appear, since Black chose to ignore my request, and never even acknowledged I had made a request for them.

I'm not knocking Black, FP is his creation, so he has the right to develope it into what he feels ii should be. And it's a known fact that he has his own vision of waht real pinball is or should be. You might label Black a Modern Traditionalist, since his vision of pinball seems focused on more modern tables. That said, how can he be for modern tables and not for Rom support, aside from legal issues?

So while I'll probably will never get my Fliperless Template or my Dropping Walls, the more inventive and creative of our FP authors have worked their magic and came up with some very nice workarounds. While there are still some ball physics issues, there is still hope and promise for FP. I don't agree with those who still feel that VP and FP can't co-exist long term, but it does seem like FP will survive beyond its infancy.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
It's a good excuse not to include roms. I removed his stupid logos and released that copy to a newsgroup, so he can shift the blame from himself to me. Although there was never any intention to support vpm, I make a great scapegoat. LOL
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
If I could give my opinion.

Future Pinball is everything that I feared would happen to VP in his hands. It is exactly like he always spoke of how VP should be. Better? Apples and Oranges! FP is a toy in my opinion. It is a tool like a table is a tool to putting together a jigsaw puzzle. To make something out of a set number of parts, like what a car?, fine, but a painting? A model? A original anything let alone something artistic like a pinball table? It that respect Fp is like a puzzle game to see how many layouts can you make out of all the pinball parts you can, not imagine, not fashion, but see.

Sounds like something I would post and get clobbered for, but I'm not finished.

First there is the fact that FP should in short order be able to build the most realistic looking creations.

Then there is this.

How many of those that did, love The Incredible Machine, would have injoyed it if you had to build the pieces that you built the machines with. I would have, it would have been the best thing, but to most, and to reality it would not be. It is probably what it need to be to succeed on the market. EZ. The worst effect of going that route is product, not that the product is bad, just that it is just like the best ones or it is wrong, the wrong pieces used at the wrong place.

Unless it's a Showcase for pinball graphics. It is very good at that, isn't it? larger textures, I didn't see any of my graphics I set up to use in VP looking better in FP, they did not look as good in FP. But that has got to be my system.

Being me, there's more though. I just happen to think that FP's life came only at the cost of the life of VP. For Randy to have taken it back he would have had to go back to a early version, or kept the code changes out of hand. Randy made it clear early on that VP as far as features was a done deal, people just didn't want to believe that. And when Randy would fix a runtime issue people would bring up all these features again, hopes raise fall etc. till next time. But there was a point in time that another was there, and he sounded more like a fellow user than that developer. It's a long story, but lucky for us it has been told, Right?
 

elton

Pinball Wizard
Have to agree with you there Shockman. :o

I was expecting much more with FP too - not from the perspective of author, but as a user. The product seems to require a lot in my opinion to run for the vast majority of PC's out there. A super duper graphics card being the obvious reuirement for most table creations that run perfectly well (if not better in VP).

Not really knocking FP per se as this is only the first release but, with the great minds that put out the first release, I expected more. Management of expectations fell well short on this one - but let's hope there's more to come in future releases and even the inclusion of Johns dropping walls (whatever they may be). :D
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
er...you've missed a few - Easter will be the 4th installment. Maybe they'll have slingshot and bumper collisions fixed then?
 

bob

Add-a-ball specialist
Site Supporters
Future pinball is fantastic and absolutely beautiful and I love it.... Until I press 1. I'll buy the retail version, but I think he needs to send Newton some quarters so he can play some real pinball.

The FP Forums is just an eyestrain to try and read with that Black background since Black removed the other theme because it didn't look good with his FP logo. :roll:
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
destruk said:
It's a good excuse not to include roms. I removed his stupid logos and released that copy to a newsgroup, so he can shift the blame from himself to me. Although there was never any intention to support vpm, I make a great scapegoat. LOL

Scapegoat my arse.
YOU hacked someone elses code warez boi.
YOU are 100% guilty.
I personally don't give a rats toss if he NEVER includes rom support.

VP people seem to think that FP needs VP people to survive.
WRONG!!
It only needs interested PINBALL people.
It has been most gratifying to see former VP authors now back and active building FP tables not to forget about the NEW authors who are turning out quality originals.

elton said:
The product seems to require a lot in my opinion to run for the vast majority of PC's out there

Not sure how long you have been in the VP/VPM scene but, how soon we forget.
When VPM first supported DCS sound there were few people who had machines fast enough to run VP and VPM DCS together without stuttering.
I know. I was one of them. AFM and CV both staggered horribly on my then pc.

tiltjlp said:
If ramps appear in this version

Wire ramps will be in the next version. I have the beta and they work very well.
I'm quite sure flat (?) ramps will be included not long after.
Also I wouldn't go holding your breath for drop walls. As far as I know there won't be any.
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
leo... sigh...

I have a 5 month old computer, I can't play FP, but I can play 98% + of the commercial releases out there. The resources needed are insane for FP, and it doesn't have the overhead of a second plug-in like VPM running in the system. I just don't have 200 dollars for a graphics card, and can't justify buying one just for this one program

As to FP, well, it's alright I guess. Something I proberly will not use though. I'm a designer, and I want to create games my way, and not anyone else's. No drop walls? Fine, means limitations that I can't live with, same as the other forced limitations, like the radius of a light is set to a max of 100. It's those little things, and I bet the ramp width is forced as well, because I do know at one time Chris was gonna limit the minimum width, and sometimes, you need these little tricks to pull off things, or at least the option to experiment so you can find those little tricks.

Anyway, it's nice looking and all, and I really do like a lot of the ideas in there, but I am sticking with the devil I know, and that's VP, for my new orginal. I couldn't do it in FP even if I had that card, because FP just doesn't give me the flexibility, and restricts my creativity in that I would be forced to do it FP's way, instead of doing it my way. I admit I do odd things and experiments every once in a while, but that's the reason I stick with VP, so I can achieve a look and feel that's unique to me, and not just put out a table that looks and plays like everyone else's. Maybe in a couple years, when FP matures, I will be able to say different.
 

elton

Pinball Wizard
Leo_Wanker said:
Not sure how long you have been in the VP/VPM scene but, how soon we forget.
When VPM first supported DCS sound there were few people who had machines fast enough to run VP and VPM DCS together without stuttering.
I know. I was one of them. AFM and CV both staggered horribly on my then pc.

Hello Leo

Before my time I'm afraid.
VP and VPM have tended to work okay with me since I started (circa 2002/3) else my stupidity has gotten in my way! LOL. :(
But with FP, even after changing my graphics card to a better one I only get 40 - 75 fps and most are not playable. This was what I based my opinion on.
Sure it must be lovely that so many authors are producing the goods using FP - sadly, at this time, I cannot be enjoying their skills. :(
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
Need VP people? couldn't hurt, could it Leo? Some of the best people in pinball simulation on the PC are VP people. You know that, you made some of the sharpest VP recreations. Black did some fine VP stuff himself. You are right though, FP don't need these people, it needs ones that are happy to slide a pop over and if it don't look right to give it a new color and move on to the next part. I can only speak for myself as a VP person, I don't need FP either. It will be nice to play FP tables when the ball acts and reacts better, but I think building one would be like slave labor, like putting together a jigsaw puzzle for a gallery. I like to play them, when I can without the ball getting stuck on the edge of a kicker hole. It's been a long time, the last version I tried was the logo fix version, so maybe all that stuff is fixed already. I might try the next logo fix version when it comes out. Any eta on that?
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
lol Leo... You kill me. :) I hack a lot of software, it's just that Future Pinball was the flavor of the month. And because it sucks, I don't feel any need to hack the current version. But what can he do about it? It's not like it's commercial software, he's not making money off it, and he can't ban me again, so how about if I go ahead and do some real hacking to it then eh? Would that make you very happy? It's talk like this that everyone is just waiting for to take the keys away from Black and make him give up and fail. (Ruining somebody's day is a strong motivator, and if you're going to step up to encourage it, go right ahead, LOL)
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
Anyway Leo - go ahead and backpeddle to where you know you should be. Evidently Black did by changing his home page again. He posted something along the lines of a question in that now third empty box. In summary from memory (so not accuare word for word as you like)

Q:Will it support vpinmame?
A:No - the vpm dev team hacked my program, so they obviously don't respect my work, so this will never support vpinmame

I hacked his program all by myself - removing two logo graphics. If I hadn't been a part of the vpm dev team when I did it, he couldn't use me as an excuse to not include support for it. I've done a whole lot more to commercial software. In any case don't get your panties all bunched up there, because it's just not important enough for me to spend time on. It's quite obvious you are so happy with future pinball that nothing else makes a difference to you. FP doesn't need any VP people. FP doesn't need VPM. All that FP needs is Black. As long as everyone worships Black and nobody else, life is just peachy. :) And who cares if balls break through the glass and land on the floor, or fly through flippers, or bounce at odd angles, and you can't do any shit that has to be done to make a game work, as long as the games it does handle look nice on an appropriately configured computer.

The thing is, anybody could have done the same thing I did, with about 10 minutes of time on their hands. Probably less. So 100% guilty of doing something a child can do, yep, that's me. And as such everyone else acts like one - must be an Australian thing.
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
Leo_Wanker said:
I wouldn't go holding your breath for drop walls. As far as I know there won't be any.

No, I won't hold my breath, but I also won't be making any solo FP tables. I'm at a loss as to why Black wants to limit the flexibility of his program, but as I've said, it's his program so it's his decision. But I would like to know how Black sees a cabinet as being the same as a template. Just how would walls that can drop cheapen FP?

Sure, most FP tables look wonderful, but the same problems that many Original VP authors have are found in FP. I'd rather have solid game play any day over beautiful graphics, and until more authors take the time to create solid layouts, a lot of FP tables will play as lousy as a lot of VP tables. When an author rushes a table, it's usually going to play like junk, VP or FP.

Since day one, too many authors feel that sounds and music are the most important element in a table, and next comes graphics, and if game play is solid, it's usually a happy accident. Until more arthors realize that game play and ball flow are the foundations to a good table, we'll continue tobe infested with "lovely uglies" as I call them. Many of my tables aren't works of art, mainly because 50-125 year old images seldom are masterpieces. But the game play and ball flow are as accurate as VP will allow me to make them, and I make sure of that by testing and testing again. More authors need to slow down and realize that the world can wait a little longer for their tables, at least long enough for them to do the best work they are capable of.
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
destruk said:
Anyway Leo - go ahead and backpeddle to where you know you should be. Evidently Black did by changing his home page again. He posted something along the lines of a question in that now third empty box. In summary from memory (so not accuare word for word as you like)

Q:Will it support vpinmame?
A:No - the vpm dev team hacked my program, so they obviously don't respect my work, so this will never support vpinmame

I hacked his program all by myself - removing two logo graphics. If I hadn't been a part of the vpm dev team when I did it, he couldn't use me as an excuse to not include support for it. I've done a whole lot more to commercial software. In any case don't get your panties all bunched up there, because it's just not important enough for me to spend time on. It's quite obvious you are so happy with future pinball that nothing else makes a difference to you. FP doesn't need any VP people. FP doesn't need VPM. All that FP needs is Black. As long as everyone worships Black and nobody else, life is just peachy. :) And who cares if balls break through the glass and land on the floor, or fly through flippers, or bounce at odd angles, and you can't do any shit that has to be done to make a game work, as long as the games it does handle look nice on an appropriately configured computer.

The thing is, anybody could have done the same thing I did, with about 10 minutes of time on their hands. Probably less. So 100% guilty of doing something a child can do, yep, that's me. And as such everyone else acts like one - must be an Australian thing.

It's got nothing to do with "worship".
That's just plain bitter bullshit and you know it.
It's got to do with respect.
I have endless respect for the work you have done in the VP and VPM world Brian. (that is your name right?)
However the fact is you fugged up by hacking FP and your not MAN enough to admit it.

Here's a news flash for you all:

I LOVE VP!!!!
Always have. Always will.

Nothing in any of my posts have said any different.
Nor have I ever said anyone HAD to use and enjoy FP.
Don't like it? Don't use it.
No skin off my nose.

Shiva *sigh*
DJSpeedy at VPForums said:
I can run most FP tables just fine on my P3 500mhz box.

I've found 1 or 2 (mainly originals) that don't seem to work too well, but other than those....

Amazing what you can do if you have a fiddle round with settings instead of whining.

Rave on all you want. I've got better things to do than listen to bitter angry people.
 

destruk

Pinball Wizard
Site Supporters
huh? I'm not man enough to admit it? I admit I hacked it repeatedly. I still don't think it was wrong to do so. About the only thing his counterpunch did was to influence me to talk trash about his program, and not provide any pictures, materials, or ideas into making his program better, or contributing with tables designed with his program, so without vpm support, and without my lowly input, he has hurt himself and his prospects for success just a tiny little bit, the way that I see it.
Now sure, Future Pinball has a bright future with the few authors/developers it has, but he has none of my respect for STEALING randy's work, adding openGL and his crap logos, and calling it his own. IMO turn about on this topic is fair game, so of course, removing two graphics is about the least I could do. But you're his 'yes man' butt buddy, so of course you're devoted to his cause and speak out against the slightest indescretion brought up anywhere, so your opinions mean absolutely nothing to me. I'm not having fun with this dicussion, so I'll leave you to sulk and wonder in your own little world.
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
tiltjlp said:
Leo_Wanker said:
I wouldn't go holding your breath for drop walls. As far as I know there won't be any.

No, I won't hold my breath, but I also won't be making any solo FP tables. I'm at a loss as to why Black wants to limit the flexibility of his program, but as I've said, it's his program so it's his decision. But I would like to know how Black sees a cabinet as being the same as a template. Just how would walls that can drop cheapen FP?

Sure, most FP tables look wonderful, but the same problems that many Original VP authors have are found in FP. I'd rather have solid game play any day over beautiful graphics, and until more authors take the time to create solid layouts, a lot of FP tables will play as lousy as a lot of VP tables. When an author rushes a table, it's usually going to play like junk, VP or FP.

Since day one, too many authors feel that sounds and music are the most important element in a table, and next comes graphics, and if game play is solid, it's usually a happy accident. Until more arthors realize that game play and ball flow are the foundations to a good table, we'll continue tobe infested with "lovely uglies" as I call them. Many of my tables aren't works of art, mainly because 50-125 year old images seldom are masterpieces. But the game play and ball flow are as accurate as VP will allow me to make them, and I make sure of that by testing and testing again. More authors need to slow down and realize that the world can wait a little longer for their tables, at least long enough for them to do the best work they are capable of.

Well there is not a lot you can do about what authors make.
There are "junk" VP tables and there will (are) junk FP tables.

I've played FP "Road Girls" more than any VP table for a long time.
I love that table. which is funny as I generally don't like country and western music. Go figure.
Bubble Bobble is another I enjoy. Simple (gameplay wise) as it is.

I did ask Black a long time ago why there was not going to be drop walls.
I forget exactly what his answer was but, I do know it was nothing to do with "cheapening" FP.
 

Leo_Wanker

Pinball Player
destruk said:
huh? I'm not man enough to admit it? I admit I hacked it repeatedly. I still don't think it was wrong to do so. About the only thing his counterpunch did was to influence me to talk trash about his program, and not provide any pictures, materials, or ideas into making his program better, or contributing with tables designed with his program, so without vpm support, and without my lowly input, he has hurt himself and his prospects for success just a tiny little bit, the way that I see it.
Now sure, Future Pinball has a bright future with the few authors/developers it has, but he has none of my respect for STEALING randy's work, adding openGL and his crap logos, and calling it his own. IMO turn about on this topic is fair game, so of course, removing two graphics is about the least I could do. But you're his 'yes man' butt buddy, so of course you're devoted to his cause and speak out against the slightest indescretion brought up anywhere, so your opinions mean absolutely nothing to me. I'm not having fun with this dicussion, so I'll leave you to sulk and wonder in your own little world.

ROTFLMAO!!
I'd like you to prove that stealing bit.
Spoken like a truly bitter and twisted looney.
 

ruckage

Pinball Nudger
Speaking as an FP author I have to say I feel the attitude of some of the VP community stinks. On more than one occassion I've read comments that imply FP authors need no skill to make a table as all the work has been done for them - well I know plenty of authors who would disagree - myself included. I put a lot of effort into making tables and also try and add something original to each one. What is the problem with having predefined parts, do you think that when a real pinball machine is made they redesign all of the components from scratch as well - of course not. Having the parts pre-made just means that I have more time to concentrate on other areas. Admitedly I can see that it would be nice to include objects that you make yourself but this will be addressed in the future when the model importer arrives.
I do know that not every table made is good - and there are a lot more below average tables than good ones but surely the same could be said of VP - I've played plenty of duds on that too.

Destruk - if you hate FP sooo much why are you still following it's progress. And regardless of whether it's commercial or not that doesn't give you the right to hack it.

Regarding rom support I think that it would be good to have it included in the future though I don't see it as something urgent. In a way it's quite good that it's not there at the moment as it's encouraging more original tables I think.

Tiltjlp, what would you like to see included in a flipperless template appart from droppable walls. If you let me know I'm sure I could create one for you quite easily as it would be just a matter of scripting and designing a new base layout P.M me if you're interested.

I have to emphasize that this is not in any way an attack on VP or the VP community in general. I think VP is still an amazing program which I still play often and I'm sure it will be in use for years to come....... As will FP
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
What can be proven is that Black used VP.
I'm not saying that he set off to do that.
I not asking you to believe that having the source code for a windows pinball editor/player would be most helpful in the creation of another one.
We can only make up our own minds about how and why he had his hands on the editor, and what he said and did with it.
You can think otherwise, but for you to imply that you can not even understand how someone can even suggest that or conclude that is not easy to believe, and we want to believe you.
 

Shockman

appropriate at this time
ruckage, if it was possible for FP to run VPM it would surprise me. I suspect that shadows are not there because they would slow down the program too much.
Yeah, don't hack it any more Destruk!
 

shiva

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Bitter and angry? Me? :)

Oh, I guess that's the standard response when someone of such H-U-G-E and incredible talents as myself actually gives a honest opinion. ;)

Sorry, I guess you all just want to continue and kid yourselves. All I basically said is it's not mature enough for it to be useable for my purposes, but suddenly, I'm critising your personal god or something. Geez, and people say I should lighten up.

Oh well, I guess that means I won't do any more FP games then, such a shame, but I think it's for the best anyway. After all, VP isn't dead, we still have the best orginal authors doing tables still for it, and not FP, so it makes no diffence to me, and judging from the response I get, you would prefere that as well. Sorry Leo, I'm not a clone, I don't rubber stamp my designs, I expect a program to have the flexibility I need to do my creations, and at the moment, that's VP, and not FP. Your loss, not mine.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Actually, you're right Shockman, it should be impossible for FP to use VPM, you would need FPM. ;)

Either way, you can recreate the tables on FP with VPM like features, ruckage has already done a few DMD type displays. Using such methods and good ol' pinmame you could extract all the needed DMD frames and sounds, you could also workout the timing and rules using exsisting VPM games, so it's possible, of course FPM would make the task far easier.
 

StevOz

Administrator
Staff member
Site Supporters
Oh and as for the VP vs FP thing, I couldn't care less, both are pinball simulators, so it's all good in my book another chapter to read. :)
 

tiltjlp

PN co-founder
ruckage said:
Tiltjlp, what would you like to see included in a flipperless template appart from droppable walls. If you let me know I'm sure I could create one for you quite easily as it would be just a matter of scripting and designing a new base layout P.M me if you're interested.

Ruckage, you, along with a short list of other innovative authors, are the future of FP, and that isn't intended as a pun. Your Ghost train and Killer Klowns are both first rate tables. As for a flipperless template I already have one, courtesy of Patrick, and Forchia and I are hard at work trying to port Flying Trapeze to FP. We are having some real headaches with the ball physics or the kickers, or the Newton engine, whatever the cause of the balls not being tracked correctly. But as I said already, without walls that can drop, I won't make any solo tables, because I had wanted to use FP to do a series of trade stimulators and counter top games, and they are require walls that can drop and raise, as well as n upright cabinet and an upright view.

I'm not anti FP, but I am anti-inflexibility. I simply can't understand why Black is so dead set against walls that can drop or raise. Mostly it's a matter of learning curves for me. I don't have to learn everything from the ground up with VP. as I know most everything I need to know, or have a network of fellow authors who can and will help me. With FP, besides needing to learn a new scripting language, I also need to learn what can and can't be done in FP, beyond the wall thing. With my health issues. I'd rather spend my limited computer time working on VP tables rather than trying to learn a new system that won't allow me the flexibility I want and need.
 
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