New Skeleton table

[Itchigo]

Reguarding the new Mike's Skeleton Table, it looks to me like he changed what he knew how to change, and claimed my template for his own. I'm not making a huge deal about this but I figured you guys should know about it. I know no one "owns" their code and certain simple thing are generic, but my subs are in this almost verbatim. I know I said you can make anything out of it but making a template out of my template is thinking outside the box for sure. I don't see any new features or anything that's been improved at all. Never thought I'd have to worry about this, only 18 months ago I was asking Faralos how to send a picture.

 

[Shockman]

I guess a template would fall into he category of 'anything', but I understand the point.

I believe there is a reason PN is a bit of a taboo subject VPF. I have seen examples of my code show up here, including the closest way to get VP9 nudging to work with a keyboard. This might not have anything to do your case, you might have released it there, but it shows that nothing is out of bounds at VPF for some people. It was known, but not mentioned where my nudging routine came from for example. It is easier to just ban the users that come up with something you want have credit for.

If a template is incomplete and released to use for 'anything' though, a complete template would be the best use of it. Credit should always be given in such cases though. I always shared the credit of mmpac with Gaston, though I built the table from scratch and used the VPM code that is listed in the doc. of VPM, because Gaston wrote that code.

 

[Itchigo]

No, it was complete the way it was. I could've added a few more things, but from the standpoint of making a table it was very complete. (Bonus, tilt, 4 players, assorted objects, and the code that goes with them, for example of how they work). I do have JP's plunger and bumpers in there, but even though he gave blanket permission to use his stuff, I still pm'ed him to make sure it was ok. The same with Eala's posts. I'm not going to jump up and down and scream or anything but it was enough to make me sit up and go WTF? I don't own any code, I did write it (bonus and other subs) with my non vp friend's help, and I don't mind people copy and pasting it to use, but don't claim it as your own. It would be as if I got a JP game, changed a few things and put my name on it. I've said my peace, that way whoever downloads it knows what they are getting.

By the way I have nothing against PN, my tables are always released at both sites (and always will be). I do spend more time there as more of my friends are there, but I think both sites are great.

 

[Noah Fentz]

I guess a template would fall into he category of 'anything', but I understand the point.

I believe there is a reason PN is a bit of a taboo subject VPF. I have seen examples of my code show up here, including the closest way to get VP9 nudging to work with a keyboard. This might not have anything to do your case, you might have released it there, but it shows that nothing is out of bounds at VPF for some people. It was known, but not mentioned where my nudging routine came from for example. It is easier to just ban the users that come up with something you want have credit for.

If a template is incomplete and released to use for 'anything' though, a complete template would be the best use of it. Credit should always be given in such cases though. I always shared the credit of mmpac with Gaston, though I built the table from scratch and used the VPM code that is listed in the doc. of VPM, because Gaston wrote that code.

WTF are you on, dude?

 

[tiltjlp]

Reguarding the new Mike's Skeleton Table, it looks to me like he changed what he knew how to change, and claimed my template for his own. I'm not making a huge deal about this but I figured you guys should know about it. I know no one "owns" their code and certain simple thing are generic, but my subs are in this almost verbatim. I know I said you can make anything out of it but making a template out of my template is thinking outside the box for sure. I don't see any new features or anything that's been improved at all. Never thought I'd have to worry about this, only 18 months ago I was asking Faralos how to send a picture.

Based on this information, Mike's Skeleton Table has been removed from our download area.

 

[Itchigo]

Thanks Tiltjlp.

 

[Itchigo]

Just wanted to say that Mike apologized yesterday for modding my template into his template. All is well.

 

[faralos]

I am now the 'proud' owner of a Mike's table 3 skeleton 2 (or what ever the hell he named that) I tore into it and yup it's all itchigos!
there are maybe two new things in there, but he had also put in remmed lines everywhere to make it look like his.
Absolutely nothing on the table itself has changed he didn't even move anything!
So I agree, even though tables are freeware and templates are made to be used to by others this is a definite case of plagiarism, in it's highest form!
Needless to say I will never be using Mike's template but I now have a souvenir!
and his tables are far from perfect too, now no offense to the guy (much), but his first four tables had no templates at all in them.
Maybe that was the good thing as he hadn't started to trash your template yet Itch, but those tables sucked at best!
the ball would hang up everywhere he even left the supports on your spinner so the ball always got stuck there.
and the graphics, well okay my first tables weren't eye candy either, but... damn! I was at a loss for words (yeah me!)
when not one but about twenty tables were cranked out that all looked close to each other and mostly played the same.
I gave up after the first five tables hell I even offered to help him after table three with graphics and such but nah he ignored me
and kept on cranking them out, each one as ugly as its predecessor!
Ah well, it may have taken me a long time but at least I am learning,
okay just read your post there Itch, he also may have had a 'talking to' by a few sysops (I hope!)
as those first tables of his sucked big time and I think they should not have been allowed to be uploaded due
to the fact they had no templates at all in them; they were unfinished IMO
can't say the same about him unfortunately...

okay I just read that last post, itch,
I hope he stops stealing your templates
and bastardizing them also into what he calls tables, too as those early ones of his weren't even pins,
they had no templates at all in them, so there was no 'start' or 'end' to any of them
wait a sec...MODDING? is that what he calls it? I call it outright theft
what mods did HE put in? ah well water under the bridge and all that as long as he kissed and made up I guess...

 

[StevOz]

Meh...I'm thinking recreating an old skeleton table, would that do?

 

[faralos]

it's not that he recreated it it's that he called it HIS template when all he did was change two things in it.
All he should have done is just to keep saying it is itchigos and say he changed two things in it,
but to call it all his? that was wrong
we change each others templates all the time for our own usage
but we do NOT go out and say it's our template when it's not
that's all

 

[Mitchell]

I want to say that I had help with the scripts on many tables. I won't take credits on the scripts at all. My tables are open to anyone who want to mod or use. I mean for God sakes it Visual Pinball and I love it. Before they mod it they have to let everyone know first for a OK. They don't have to ask me period. There is a few mods that I done but not mine so those doesn't count as my tables.

I did notices a lot of VP tables makers left. Pacdude and many others. Funny thing is that I never had left the Forums. I was playing WoW to Rift and now to quit. WoW threw me off and so did Rift. Paying too much to play those anyway.

Order and Chaos Online is pretty cheap for iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad. $3 for 6 months to play. The game give you 3 months free play time after sign up on the app. I wouldn't play it on Facebook because it buggy and at level 10 you have to paid $5 to play which is stupid.

 

[Shockman]

PacDude did the same thing though, and he may just be off playing WOW too.

I don't understand why it matters, or why it only sometimes matters. Some that is even on staff at the new VPF.org, was around the old VPF.com and they openly supported theft. There is no reason to think they would not now, and certainly no reason why they should be against theft now.

They went months hosting the core.vbs file with credit for the flipper speed adjustment credited to PacDude. Their response, PacDude maintains the scripts, not us. That would not happen if members spoke up but they didn't.

destruk was there. He should be saying Mike posted the template, so it IS his. To this day there is no proper credit in the scripts that VPF hosts, other sites too, but they originate from VPF.org. They should be hosting Mike's template too. They really have to.

There has always been banning of thief's, but their has always been support and practice of it by the staff. The new VPForums.org is no exception.
There have always been bannings and rules changed retroactively to support them. Even at this site. I was not allowed to post mods of PacDude's tables that were marked as free to mod, while the .vbs file remained. At VPF it was openly supported though, but the mods I made labeled as unauthorized.

 

[Shockman]

Rules are not something that should come and go. They are not something that should effect those the powers that be decide. But they always have been, everywhere. It is the way of the Visual Pinball forum. It always has been since the beginning, and to this day.

It's not stupid that members would bring it up, voice opinions on it, complain, or even draw conclusions, as long as they themselves were consistant. What is stupid is that an environment would exist where they had to do that, and that for some it would work and for others it would not, dependent on anything at all.

 

[Shockman]

Getting my tables off the site. VPF.org was like pulling teeth. I did not want to do that, but if a site is going to ban someone because those that provoked a response suggests it, or if an admin sees no wrong in banning a long time member for life and falsely claiming he started an argument, or started some disruption, or as the last word of an argument the admin started, then it is just not right to keep the work of that member. Ex-member. Just a few hours ago he posted again that the fix does not work. It does not matter if it works or not. It does not even matter why it was said, does it? or that I have a life long ban, because I disagree with it, as adamantly as he likes to post it .

I never cared for credit to be in the core.vbs file, or I would have asked for it. But that is not the point. The point is that is is OK that it was falsely included, replaced with snide remarks which was OK with the admin., and finally non credited as VPF.org maintains it now, which of course is OK with them as well. The problem is not that I want it, which I don't, but that VPF.org does not want it. So stolen credit, is OK, snide remarks, is OK. No credit, is OK. Proper credit, unrecognized by choice, THEREFORE not OK.

 

[Itchigo]

As this thread is about the templates I'll stick to that. I will say that I pm'ed Tiltjlp and Paul with screenshots of nearly identical pages. Both decided to pull the templates after seeing the basicly either copy and paste or direct mods. Paul talked to Mike and Mike apologized to me via pm. I accepted and decided to not waste any more energy on it. He was not banned, but if it happens again, I cannot say if he will be banned or not. I've left it go at that. I noticed that the layout was basicly the same with bigger lights so that's what drew my attention.

Essentially the rules as I understand them are: If you use someone's pics or whatever for an uploaded table you must get that person's permission and give them credit for it. Making a table from a template just requires "Made with...". I do use JP's plunger and bumpers in the template and even though he has a blanket "anyone can use my stuff" attitude, I pm'ed him anyway and he graciously said ok. He does get credit as well in the script.

My position on my tables is this: If you use an existing table of mine for a platform make it a completly different table unrecognizable from the original. Don't retheme the game with new pics and call it a different game. I can understand wanting to use a game for a platform because you don't know how to do something like say bonus. Although I don't claim to own any code I did write it myself. If you want to borrow a sub, fine. But not whole pages unless you say where it came from. Just use common sense, I don't mind others learning from my stuff. I'm actually surprised I could make anything that ANYONE wants. If you find the Kenwood Pinball thread you'll see just how far I've come in 2 years. By the way I'm adding more tutorials to my website in the near future as Mitchell has let me host some of his tutorials there as well as his site.

 

[Shockman]

It was sarcasm. I agree with you 100% and I think everyone else should agree as well. I was just pointing out that it is always not the case and should be always the case. I do think it's less wrong to accept it from no one for any reason, than it is, and it is the case, that is acceptable by others. The .core.vbs file is only more important because it is needed more, but that should not be a reason why it can contain the same deliberate effort to shift credit from where it belongs to where it does not belong. For Paul though, as I assume because he was not an admin at the time has decided that a lack of credit is a good enough compromise, but then you would have to expect the resolution would be to have the credit removed from the template, in the stead of getting rid of it.

I went a long way in my first two years as well.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Phil, you must be smoking crack again.

You really need to quit assuming you have a clue, because you obviously don't. Quit pretending you know anything about me or what I do.

My god, man! I'm so fucking tired of you claiming I do this or don't do that when it's simply not true.

You, my friend, are an absolute moron. It's no wonder you are damn near the only poster here. Even to the extent you reply to yourself!

Your level of 'freedom of speech' is like a protest at a funeral. No one wants to see it, nor does it carry with it any amount of class whatsoever.

 

[Shockman]

I have never even been around crack. I don't even know anybody that has. What is it that you think you recognize. What is it like? Do crack heads bother you? I always imagined them more like you are than I am. I figured they would lie to get what they want, but for all I know you are right, they stick with the truth and we all know how the truth irks you. It's like you really were born yesterday. Like you did nothing I have mentioned. I hope you are sick, because the alternative is very ugly.

 

[Shockman]

You must have an idea that I enjoy this. I do this for the same reason that you do what you. To give my side of the story. I am quite aware, and have always been, that you get very angry if I bring up anything that refutes what you say.

The difference is that I admit to what I am accused of for the most part, besides the few things that are untrue, like I intentionally reposted anything you edited out, and idiotic things said by your staff like I am the reason VP8 was not fixed and very many other things.

You don't ever mention those things and you never respond to those things. You never mention the way I was before I was lied about, or your response to it. It's all about my part in this. And from your self modeled view you are somehow able to sell yourself, you are right. If you have a single member that believes your interpretation of this though, you truly blessed.

The other difference is I am willing to have open debate about this on a point by point bases, and let anyone arbitrate, and you, well now after reading that are gone.

 

[Shockman]

You are right about assumption though. I was only assuming that you were aware that the core.vbs file you host remains in the state of 'if it can not have improper credit, then it can not have credit at all, and that that only pertains to me and no one else involved in the many other things put in it by others.

Fuck me though. I say this as if I think you think you should give a damn. That much about you I do know well enough.

 

[Noah Fentz]

You are right about assumption though. I was only assuming that you were aware that the core.vbs file you host remains in the state of 'if it can not have improper credit, then it can not have credit at all, and that that only pertains to me and no one else involved in the many other things put in it by others.

Fuck me though. I say this as if I think you think you should give a damn. That much about you I do know well enough.

Ya see, fella, a normal person would say something like, "Hey Noah, I'd really appreciate it if you could look into the credits of the core.vbs, as I feel I've been overlooked."

Which, my response would be, "Alright man, I'll look into." Subsequently, I would, and if you were right, I'd make damn sure credit was given.

But, no, not the Great Shockman!

Instead, you slander, cry foul, piss, moan, and whine like a little bitch until you're shut out as an irritant. No one listens to you anymore, so you just get louder and more obnoxious.

As for whatever it is you think I'm not addressing, most of it's not on me, but those you claim said whatever it is you think they said, so take it up with them. I'm just a dude, not the end all, be all of VPF. I couldn't do it without many others, most of which whom you use in attacking me for some odd reason.

Throughout your history, you've dragged a lot of people's names through the mud when you've not gotten the end result you were looking for, and I just see myself as your current target. Most of what you say is quite old hat at this point, as I've already addressed it all in our 100+ emails and PM's. It's when you attack my character that I address your claims, as any self-respecting person would.

You're very wrong about me, just as you were wrong about the many admins and moderators before me. You just can't see it through your seething hate. I suspect it has a lot to do with how you feel about yourself.

Ciao.

 

[Shockman]

It's because you know they started it and you joined in with them. You told me it was just opinion and if you really believe that, it would be necessary to repeat even again the extensive list of all that was said. It was not opinion, it was not true, and it was not nice. It has nothing to do with the past, except that it should be IN the fucking past. This is what you banned me for the first time. I thought we had settled that one, but you bring up e-mails for why I am banned this time and there is none, from me or to me. You say there was six warnings, but there was none. You are using reasons why you banned me the first time as excuses for this ban and that is not right. If I did not trust you I would not have come back then even if I was asked.

I did not demand credit. I earned the credit. And I know you know all about it. I suspect that's why you say it does not exist when it does, and has for so long.

It's just not fair. There is nothing at all you could possibly use as a reason that was not just half the reason, and not a single thing I started. A Ban should be fair. not your way to end an argument or sweep the other haft under the rug. I got to know you just well enough to believe you could agree with that. That is why I feel someone else might be pulling the strings, by saying something like If he is here, I am leaving. If someone wants to be out, they should be out. But if someone wants in there should be a damn reason for shutting them out, and if it is for life there should be absolutely no taint at all to the reason. I don't think there is good reason at all, and you can not even see the taint?

But if you want to use the past. It's there. Use it. If you could site one thing where my point of not starting it is not true, going back as far as you want, and singling out just any one issue, I think you would have by now. You have made it clear how you feel about being wronged. You are not the only one that wronging is wrong.

I tried the quiet route, for two months. I don't think it should have been a week.

Ya see, fella, a normal person would say something like, "Hey Noah, I'd really appreciate it if you could look into the credits of the core.vbs, as I feel I've been overlooked."

Good lord Paul. I could not even say it worked to you without getting you all fired up. You were shifting form it does not exist to it does not work. If I was right? You surely are not calling me a liar. The day I have to lie to get something I want would be the day I stopped wanting it.

 

[Noah Fentz]

Look, this is the very last time I'll be replying to you. I've already wasted more of my life than I've ever wanted to on this crap ...

It's because you know they started it and you joined in with them. You told me it was just opinion and if you really believe that, it would be necessary to repeat even again the extensive list of all that was said. It was not opinion, it was not true, and it was not nice.

I don't even know what the fuck IT is! Here's where you lose me. You make too many assumptions that any of us dwell on anything VP-related as much as you do.

It has nothing to do with the past, except that it should be IN the fucking past.

It is for me, why can't it be for you?

This is what you banned me for the first time. I thought we had settled that one, but you bring up e-mails for why I am banned this time and there is none, from me or to me. You say there was six warnings, but there was none. You are using reasons why you banned me the first time as excuses for this ban and that is not right. If I did not trust you I would not have come back then even if I was asked.

When someone gets banned and allowed to return, do you actually believe everything is all of a sudden hunky-fucking-dory? No. You remain on thin ice for some time, and you didn't waste any time pissing everyone off again.

I did not demand credit. I earned the credit. And I know you know all about it. I suspect that's why you say it does not exist when it does, and has for so long.

I had no fucking clue, dude. I don't go reading the credits of the core.vbs every day, ya know. You really need to get a grip and work on your paranoia. It's not always a conspiracy. In fact, it rarely ever is. In this case, it certainly is not.

It's just not fair. There is nothing at all you could possibly use as a reason that was not just half the reason, and not a single thing I started. A Ban should be fair. not your way to end an argument or sweep the other haft under the rug. I got to know you just well enough to believe you could agree with that. That is why I feel someone else might be pulling the strings, by saying something like If he is here, I am leaving. If someone wants to be out, they should be out. But if someone wants in there should be a damn reason for shutting them out, and if it is for life there should be absolutely no taint at all to the reason. I don't think there is good reason at all, and you can not even see the taint?

I was fair then, and I'm fair now. You have always played the victim in every banning you've ever received. When are you going to wake up and realize this is a pattern with you, and the common denominator in all these bannings (what, six? seven now?) is YOU?

But if you want to use the past. It's there. Use it. If you could site one thing where my point of not starting it is not true, going back as far as you want, and singling out just any one issue, I think you would have by now. You have made it clear how you feel about being wronged. You are not the only one that wronging is wrong.

I tried the quiet route, for two months. I don't think it should have been a week.

Good lord Paul. I could not even say it worked to you without getting you all fired up. You were shifting form it does not exist to it does not work. If I was right? You surely are not calling me a liar. The day I have to lie to get something I want would be the day I stopped wanting it.

Shockman, I got fired up more and more with every post, email, and PM for the simple reason it was the same shit over and over and over again. Whenever I read anything from any of your correspondence, this is what I picture ...

I just can't do it anymore. I've tried for too long and spent too much time with you as it is.

Take care.

 

[Shockman]

You certainly are wasting your time. But more importantly, you are wasting your life. The truth is that none of this would have ever happened if you would have stopped it with one moderating post.

You did say for everyone to stop, and I posted that I would. What was the problem with that. The 'it' as I said was the lies being planted, watered and fertilized, against me and my work.

I posted I would drop it, and destruk did not post in that thread again nor did I, until another post, in the same vain, was made. And who posted it? You did Paul. It was over. It was moderated, it was stopped. You should have been happy. The continuation of 'it' by you was the meanest, most personal, unfair, and most non understandable thing about this entire situation that you did as your part.

Before this I complained about nothing, though there was things I did not like. I supported you whole heartily in your attempt to iron out some policies, and you seemed to enjoy and appreciate that support.

Even after this I dropped it as requested, as demanded by you. Was I to supposed to take you placing the next post and it being a negative and un-true post as you changing your mind about continuing this argument, or take it as I just could not respond to these things. Did I really make the wrong choice? Was it really the latter? Of course it was.

It must be nice to be able to condition your mind in such a way that you could ever blame me for this, but to do so and have support of even a single member, that is the real magic. The other is sociopathy if you are truly unaware of what 'it' is and psychopathy otherwise.

Like I said though, you said this was settled when you let me back. And I thought and trusted it was until it was used for an excuse to be banned again. If it was not, I would not be mentioning it in my response to this ban. I don't assume that VP is all consuming for you, not 100%, but I assume you are aware of what is going on with an issue at the time you are involved in that issue.

This covers points one and two.

--------------------------------------------

No I don't expect that. Nor do I suspect it to just be round two of the same thing. It is not about coming off a ban for me. It is about why I was banned in the first place. That was clearly a lack of, I think, but certainly not enough moderation of the lies being thrown around me on the other side, not to mention that you were involved, and continued it when it had otherwise stopped. But that is to suggest that I was not the only one making mistakes, so I don't expect you to buy this. It is obvious that such treatment would seem out of proportion when it is directed at a group, that such treatment of just one person would come across. I don't think you get this point either.

----------------------------------------

You should not change the credit in the core.vbs file. I am saying merely that this lack of credit is intentional, it was fought over, and decided that if the person that did not do it can not have credit for it then no-one can, because of whatever reason. Probably because people wanted more PacDude tables and were afraid that if he was not allowed to steal this credit then he would leave. This is the state of the file as it sits on your site. If it is what you want it can stay that way. As I said, it was like pulling the teeth of every member, less a few the others were incapable of relating to, and the staffers, just to get the improper credit removed. The only question as to really came up with it, including members and staff at the time, could only be asked as a joke, or worse intent.

-------------------------------------

I realize a pattern alright. A pattern of selective memory, a pattern of denial, a pattern of twisting the facts, a pattern of abuse of power, a pattern of lies.

-----------------------------------------

Of course it is the same shit over again. That is what the truth is. Unchanging. Nothing important has ever changed for the better on it's own. Women, blacks, animals, nature, and anything else did not ever change because something was said once so it had to be. An you would not say that these things should not have ever been said, or was overstated at any time before the change, would you? Of course not. At least these things were argued back and forth. No one was saying that women already had the right to vote before they did. They were saying women should not have the right to vote. You on the other hand was and are still saying that these issues (ours) did not even exist.

-------------------------------------------

I just can't do it anymore. I've tried for too long and spent too much time with you as it is.

Oh come on Paul. Just because truth and honesty does not work for me, does not make me think it is flawed on any level. Give it a try sometimes. That time is not all moderation. It is from the lack of moderation, or attempting to moderate one side while the other side is carrying on, which is an oxymoron and you could not possibly do that expecting that it would not take much for that across the board action would. In fact you don't know what anything after would be had you not posted that my workaround does not work as the next post after you told every one to drop it and everyone else besides you did.
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Because I am telling the truth, I don't know why I am banned. Let alone for life. I certainly am not going to lie now and say I do, and I am not going to lie and say you did not start this, continue this, and have any reason to feel you are justified in doing so. You may wish to feel that you are, and that may be enough to make it so in your mind, but we both know you are not, or your mind is sick.

 

[Shockman]

I realize that people, including me can sometimes get more, and even get what they want sometimes by using lies, or ignoring truth to get it. But I would have to think that my life was the most important thing in this world. I don't. I think as lives go it is one of the least important. Job's life has just ended and was the most productive life there ever was. I doubt that there is any more to life that living and death, but those that act as there is are some of the best people I know.

I actually like Paul. Of course the one thing I don't is forefront most of the time because he seem to want people to think I am a liar. He sees bad in NOTHING other than me on these matters. I'm not even saying that the OTHER side is bad. I am only saying it existed, and that is seems to me had an agenda, and went on a campaign to get it. It's certainly not good, but it certainly is not confirmed as a fact. So it is not something that can be labeled as bad. It may be that that is just the way these people respond to arguments. The fact that my reaction to something I support (like members should not have the right to remove uploads) and things I do not support (faster downswings are not possible, or have no effect even if they are used) are, I believe human reactions shared by even those that take offence at hearing things they do not want to, or know and understand better.

It's going to take a consensus though, that truth and fairness should not enter this equation, I would have to believe, for any member or staff to be comfortable and able to fully enjoy VPF.org. It would be mean to say I am probably wrong about that. Let me just say that I could be wrong about that.