Online Poker: Ain't that cheating?

Hey, that's a pretty cool flash game, I've tried a few other Texas holdem games and this is the first one I've liked. If I get into it I may have to buy the full version (might be worth $20). Managed to win one tournament and one cash game in easy mode, with several complete washouts as well...
 
Yep, the game is real nice. I have also downloaded the demo to play it outside of the browser (btw. its 100% identical to the flash version) but it had only 60 minutes of trial play, which i found a tad short. So i went to see if there is a demo with a longer trial time available and in deed i found a version from another software studio (BigFish Games) which was labeled as 'portable'. This version turned out to be only one executable and so far it doesnt seem to have any restrictions at all. Im not sure if that is actually a pirated full version but it is likely, i will know it if it keeps working for more than a couple of days.

If i keep coming back to it i might buy it as well. Otherwise i can still play a round for free in the browser from time to time,...
 
Last edited:
if you can make it out of the first town then you know it's the commercial (or pirated) version.

the game doesn't really get any more complex, nor does a storyline ever happen, but the tournaments, stakes and rewards all get larger. as do your holdings- after awhile you can sit back and make money off your properties when you are short of entry fees...
 
if you can make it out of the first town then you know it's the commercial (or pirated) version. the game doesn't really get any more complex,
Well in that case the flash version will do for me. Im nowhere near good enough to win a whole game even on beginner anyway,...if i would actually win one then it would be purely by luck. (Made 3rd once and even that was more luck than anything else.)


See you later, im not so well at the moment so i will be taking a time out for a couple of days. Perhaps ill be back at the weekend,...
 
if you can make it out of the first town then you know it's the commercial (or pirated) version.

the game doesn't really get any more complex, nor does a storyline ever happen, but the tournaments, stakes and rewards all get larger. as do your holdings- after awhile you can sit back and make money off your properties when you are short of entry fees...

Does the AI get any better? I'm starting to figure out how the different players work and am starting to win in the flash version at the hard difficulty level. The info on the game web site says the players get better as you move up.

Guess not much point in buying the game if the opponents don't really get any harder.
 
nail on the head, marty. they don't get much better IMO and that was one of the very few things i disliked about this game. of course it is satisfying to get through all the towns with the higher stakes and bigger tournaments, but is it worth $20 or whatever...?

PM'd.
 
Follow up

I ended up getting the full version of GOP direct from youdagames (48MB), seems to play different from the flash version, not much but the opponents seem a little more random in their bluffs. Still a bit too easy to win the one on one games, but the tournaments are fun.

To win money in the larger tournaments you have to play more aggressive or you get too far behind. In the first town all you have to do is fold a lot and let the others beat each other since you only have to come in 3rd out of 8 to come out ahead. The larger tournaments have 16 to 24 other players and you've got to come in 5th just to break even.

Later,
Marty
 
One of the things i always do when i go shopping is scanning the budget pyramid for any new games. Two days ago i found a game named 'World Series Of Poker 2007 - Tournament Of Champions' for only 5 bucks. The review doesnt sound too good, but there is hope that at least the technical problems can be solved by any of the patches that are already out. What is cool in any case though is that this game (unlike other poker software) gives you the option to host your very own multiplayer games, which means you could set up your own rounds only with people you like to play. And i really kind of like that option.

Still im not sure if i should buy it. In case anyone here has this game, could you tell a litte about your own experiences with it?


A short video presentation:


<embed width=" 425" height=" 346" src="http://xml.truveo.com/eb/i/2309814534/a/70a7dc249f1af3e321b3e0e9402c6b65/p/4" quality="high" bgcolor="000000" name="efp" align="middle" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" flashvars="flvbaseclip=2772595&"> </embed>
 
i just bought that last week at $10 for my friend's system- N64 or PS3 or whatever. i did it because i wanted him to learn how to play.

i played it very little so far, so i'm very unsure how the AI and features are. mostly what i noticed are the corny graphics and sound. i wish they'd skip that stuff and just focus on a top-down view of the game like the online sites do. but still, for $5 how can you go wrong?

one other package i liked pretty well was "poker superstars III" for the PC, based on the real invitational mini-tournament of famous players. it has some fun and creative mini-challenges as well as the main tournament format, which is not easy to win.
 
one other package i liked pretty well was "poker superstars III" for the PC, based on the real invitational mini-tournament of famous players.

Funny, i downloaded the demo of that one yesterday. (Whilst searching a demo for WSOP2007.) Wasnt too thrilled about it, odd playing angle, (i prefer the clean center-down view from GOP), and it was also rather difficult to see who has done what. Too little oversight for my taste, like i said, GOP is way better in that regard. EDIT: Seems like i got that confused with another one i tried out yesterday. Poker Superstars III actually does have a nice center-top-down view (just checked it out again) but the oversight could be a tad better here too. But all in all it is one of the better ones i tried so far.

IMO, a GOP with decent GFX, nice sounds, skilled narrators and scalable AI (Bloody Beginner to World Champ) would be galactic,...
 
Last edited:
one other package i liked pretty well was "poker superstars III" for the PC, based on the real invitational mini-tournament of famous players. it has some fun and creative mini-challenges as well as the main tournament format, which is not easy to win.

Is the AI on that any better than GOP (harder than playing in one of the tournaments in on of the outermost towns)? I've played the flash version and thought it was much easier, maybe because you only play against 4 players in the free version.
 
Is the AI on that any better than GOP (harder than playing in one of the tournaments in on of the outermost towns)? I've played the flash version and thought it was much easier, maybe because you only play against 4 players in the free version.
there are at least two versions of poker superstars, II and III, not to mention the demo version vs. the full version of each. personally i only played the full versions. that is, my point is, AI might vary between the four versions.

i always thought the AI in the PS series was a bit better than the GOP series. for one thing, it had to be, because in the beginning rounds you are part of a six-player table versus GOP where most tournaments are 27 players in size, rewarding the top five players. in PS, the further you go the tighter the fields become- from six to four to head-to-head. if the logic was the same as in GOP then the tournament would be too easy IMO. but the game itself is also intrinsically harder because the hurdles are higher- in the four-player table you must finish in the top two over the course of two rounds, and in the head-to-heads you play three rounds and must win to advance, of course. once you're out, the tournament is done, whereas in GOP you just lick your wounds and re-enter on your quest to take over all of texas.

of course GOP does have that five-player room, the cash game, in which you can use your property assets as markers. that might be the closest format to the PS series, but again, it shows me that the GOP AI is a bit easier when i compare them head-to-head. although the format is quite difficult because you only start with 3-4 big blinds in assets IIRC.

GOP is perfect or near-perfect in many ways- the top-down view with the hats cleverly placed to avoid showing faces is a stroke of genius IMO; the economic property-management aspect is another one; the creation of a quest a great idea. it's just such a fun poker experience. the problem for me is that it's too easy to make money in the tournament system, although the same could be said for online tournaments due to the number of novices that play them.

example:

when i have somewhere between 20-40 BB's i play a lot of hands, even if they are crappy, and wait to see what the flop brings. 95%+ of the time someone will start betting heavy-ish and i simply get out of the way. but occasionally i'll be in with something silly like 2-4 and a 3-5 will come down in the flop, which gives me an almost 40% to hit my straight if i can see the river. well, those hands can be worth absorbing some medium bets on, because by playing a random crappy hand like 2-4, nobody is going to put me on a straight. typically someone will be in the betting with an ace and a good kicker / other pair and can't imagine that the ace that comes on the turn or the river actually kills them and makes my hand, so they'll tend to go all-in in which case i gladly agree to take all their money. hitting this or a variety of other possibilities when you're in the 20-40 BB range practically guarantees you money in the tournament format.

by comparison, when you get down to around 10 BB's or less there is a high sense of urgency and you want to actively look for that situation to go all in on. or when you get down to four BB's, you have to go all in on pretty-much anything because you can't afford to be bled any further by the blinds and can't afford to win nothing but a tiny pot.

anyway, the thing that i like about PS is the much higher level of pressure than GOP- not only due to the tournament setup, but because the IA itself puts a lot more pressure on you with the regular massive raises and all-ins. it forces you onto the razors edge, making you evaluate all the components of the situation, thus honing your decision-making. but if your goal in poker is simply to play it as a computer passtime, this may not be important- it's moreso something that will help if you plan to one day play live / online for real money.

basically, GOP helps teach you certain areas, like how to act on position and how to titrate your assets and betting, as i exampled above, while PS will concentrate on some other areas, like how to read styles and bluffs and deal with pressure.

damn, that was a long post. oO
 
basically, GOP helps teach you certain areas, like how to act on position and how to titrate your assets and betting, as i exampled above, while PS will concentrate on some other areas, like how to read styles and bluffs and deal with pressure.

damn, that was a long post. oO


Thanks for the detailed analysis, sounds like it may be worth at least testing out the full version of PS for the hour demo, I wasn't too wild about the graphics in the flash version, but mostly because things were crammed into the small window.

I take it since the betting style is different the one on one games are harder? In GOP the opponent in one on one games never seems to go all in, so you just have to slowly bleed them.

In GOP you can sell your buildings in the previous round to advance faster to get to the gov, but after beating him twice that's not fun any more. Now I've got every building owned, and only play the big tournaments, seems I either get knocked out early or end up in the top 3, hardly ever go out in the middle. Got enough cash now that I don't need the buildings to make money to get into another game if I bust early.

Later,
Marty
 
I take it since the betting style is different the one on one games are harder? In GOP the opponent in one on one games never seems to go all in, so you just have to slowly bleed them.
it's harder to get a read, i'd say. in PS they are better at slow-playing you and being unpredictable in a strategic kind of way.

with GOP, once a hand finishes you can see more examples of "they had THAT hand with THOSE cards on the table and they chose to do THAT?!?"... ie, facepalm situations.

In GOP you can sell your buildings in the previous round to advance faster to get to the gov, but after beating him twice that's not fun any more. Now I've got every building owned, and only play the big tournaments, seems I either get knocked out early or end up in the top 3, hardly ever go out in the middle. Got enough cash now that I don't need the buildings to make money to get into another game if I bust early.
yea, after the game ended by beating the governor i was kind of pissed. next time around i simply started collecting money and seeing if i could accumulate all the special awards ( i didn't :( )

btw, i also bought this used on ebay to teach friends how to play in front of a TV. it's kind of ingenious in that each wireless controller has a little LED window that lets them peek at their hole cards. too bad the processor and graphics were crap...
http://www.esend.com/Excalibur/Products.aspx?Catalog=Excalibur&ProductID=VR39(Esend)

(shows wires in that pic for some reason)
 
In any case it is different, that much is safe to say. A lot different actually. The SpinTop demo lets you play restriction-less for 60 minutes, and after playing it for almost an hour now i have to say that the AI players react way more like you would expect from a human player whereas with GOP i always have the feeling that the AI pretty much decides in advance who is to win a given round, and that it simply gives itself whatever cards it needs in the end to either beat me or let me win, strictly according to whatever the 'plan' was.

With PSS3 the whole game seems much more realistic, more authentic, and there seems to be much more true randomness to who-gets-what too, meaning you dont always have the odd feeling that the program favors itself. On the contrary, i have even already won a couple of games because my 'strategies' kind of worked out as i expected. On GOP on the other hand the best i ever made was 3rd, and that on beginner in the demo town. In other words i suck royally at GOP but im pretty darn good in PSS3.

Although im pretty much positive that there is some 'ramping' going on in PSS3 too. Especially towards the end of a game, when youre playing head-to-head, there is suddenly a very abrupt and very obvious change-to-the-worse regarding chance and probability. (It literally feels like something suddenly got 'chopped off'.) And that is of course rather unrealistic, (not to mention frustrating), because it is sheer impossible for a person that sticks with a certain playing-style to cash in 95% of the table-total with relative ease and then loose it all in 2 minutes solely due to 'bad luck'. This happened to me twice already, and both times it followed the exact same pattern. At first you are winning well, sending out one opponent after another. When you have about 95% of the table-total in your pocket, and the last opponent is already on his last legs, its like something in the game goes *click* and from then on its straight downhill. You suddenly get only bad cards anymore. If you get something together with the flop cards and bet they fold. If you have nothing and bet they check. If you go all-in with nothing the opponent practically always calls your bluff, (unlike earlier in the game), and if you do have something and go all-in the oppenent has almost guaranteed something better 95% of the times. In one word your playing-style which (evidently) worked great up to this point suddenly becomes meaningless, and even though you already have 95% of the chips in your pocket you might be loosing the game anyway. And a sudden change to this extent can only be explained by 'ramping', because so much 'bad luck', and always at the exact same point in the game, is quite simply against all laws of probability.

But aside from that i think its still a great game, so far the best that i have seen. Should it ever appear in the budget pyramid i will be buying it in any case, even if i could simply use that 'unrestricted-demo' from Rapidshare. Good games deserve to be rewarded with good money,...
 
I don't see the point of buying a game when you can play for free with many on line poker sites.
 
when you play online, you're usually forced into nine-player tables, therefore you have to spend a lot more time waiting for other players to make their decisions. the goals are more abstract, also- you're just trying to make money in a generalised way whereas with GOP and PSS your games are part of a larger campaign.

also, as is usual, people can be jerks, and it can be nice to skip all that and play with computer players in a more peaceful atmosphere. and in online play, particularly tournaments, you are under pressure to finish the whole thing in one go, which can take an hour or two of continuous play. you don't have much time for breaks, and when you do take them, the others will carry on without you, meaning you'll miss information about how they're playing.
 
kevin, marty- how are your games going these days?

i decided to dust off GOP and play it through again just to keep my hand in. cool thing about taking a break from something- when i come back i usually notice more stuff than i did last time, giving the opportunity to improve. and one more note about GOP- the tendency for the bots to call raises with almost nothing is terrible, ie a huge weak point in that game's AI. ie, raising with nothing is perfectly fine- calling with nothing and little chance to hit anything is fatal.

i almost went to AC with a buddy on saturday. the small tables there are $1 / $2 blinds and apparently the hands with betting usually get raised to about $10 or so. he says he brings $200 to cover a couple hours of play, meaning he can afford to blow that much. well, i can't afford to blow that much at this time, and i don't want to stay out til 4AM playing as he does- would mess up the whole next day.

hmm, just listened to a nice 30-min. podcast interview with howard lederer ("the professor"). there's so much great media resources on the web...
 
Im awefully busy with other stuff at the moment, (hence almost zero forum activity during the past days), but i noticed that PSS3 describes me as 'Very Loose' in Season Play and 'Totally Loose' in challenges. In Single Round its only 'Loose'.

What exactly does that mean, and is it good or is it bad?

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • pss3.jpg
    pss3.jpg
    67.7 KB · Views: 390
Last edited:
it's based on the amount of hands that you decide to play (call the blinds on).

"tight" = tendency to only play hands when you have better cards.

"loose" = tendency to play hands with whatever your hole cards are.
 
So in other words the 'tight' player never plays unless he really has something whereas the 'loose' player goes by the motto 'no risk - no fun', right?

Well, that seems to be pretty accurate then, hole cards plus flop dont necessarily say much about how the game will really turn out in the end. At the very least i have to see the turn card, which can (and often does) in fact 'turn' the whole game.

BTW, why is it 'hole' card and not 'hold' card? There seems to be no association with 'hole' in this context whereas 'hold' would make sense since thats the cards im 'holding'. Any idea?
 
kevin, marty- how are your games going these days?

i decided to dust off GOP and play it through again just to keep my hand in. cool thing about taking a break from something- when i come back i usually notice more stuff than i did last time, giving the opportunity to improve. and one more note about GOP- the tendency for the bots to call raises with almost nothing is terrible, ie a huge weak point in that game's AI. ie, raising with nothing is perfectly fine- calling with nothing and little chance to hit anything is fatal.

i almost went to AC with a buddy on saturday. the small tables there are $1 / $2 blinds and apparently the hands with betting usually get raised to about $10 or so. he says he brings $200 to cover a couple hours of play, meaning he can afford to blow that much. well, i can't afford to blow that much at this time, and i don't want to stay out til 4AM playing as he does- would mess up the whole next day.

hmm, just listened to a nice 30-min. podcast interview with howard lederer ("the professor"). there's so much great media resources on the web...


I would think programming the AI to bluff all in when it has nothing would be somewhat difficult. In GOP after buying up all the buildings I'm now up to almost $20K in cash, so have been playing tournaments in different towns just to build reputation, Brownsville seemed to be the hardest for me to win in, so the different towns do seem to play differently.

Haven't gotten around to testing out PSIII yet.

Some people at work used to take a day off during the week to go over to AC to play. There were cheap tournaments during the week, that was 2 summers ago, don't know if they still have them.
 
@kevin,
dunno about the origin of the word. could be based on something like "in the hole" or "down the hole".


@marty,
that's a great idea. i wonder how long the tournaments last?
could be an excellent way for me to play without having to spend a lot of money, plus i'm more comfortable in the tournament format anyway.

EDIT: wow, some super cheap stuff...
http://acpokerguide.com/newdaily.aspx
 
Last edited:
some observations about GOP since i've been playing it recently:

- two big problems with the AI are playing too many weak hands and limping in when they do. it's very hard to win playing 'loose' and non-aggressive in poker because your stack is constantly being nibbled away. this is also the reason why most successful players are TAG's (tight and aggressive).

- GOP is nevertheless a pleasant and useful tool for improving your poker. IMO it's no exaggeration to say that it can help you make the transition to playing against real players for real money. what's important in a game like GOP is to identify the characteristics of the AI opponents and ask yourself why they made certain actions at certain times. this will reveal patterns which you can use to your advantage in future hands.

- the other major thing to do is to identify all the aspects of the game and develop a rating system for them. this will be extremely helpful in making good, sensible decisions at the table. for example, each position on the table has a relative value to it- having the dealer button is the most valuable position because after the flop you always get to see what other players do and then make your decision. conversely, having the small blind, big blind or "UTG" ("under the gun", or position following the big blind) are the least valuable positions because in those cases you are one of the first to act- small blind always first before the flop, UTG always first after. so, say, a hand like J-6 usually has very little value on a 6-9 player table in the small blind position, but under the same conditions has significantly improved value from the dealer position. although at the same time, in a game like GOP, it's value will not be as high as normally because AI players call too many bets with weak hands, meaning it's hard to push them off hands via bluffing or semi-bluffing.

- some other aspects of poker that can be ascribed value are: number of players at the table (with less players, the value of your cards go up), number of players who have decided to play a hand (ie, they didn't fold), how close you are to finishing in the money versus trying to increase your stack, the number of big blinds your stack totals and how many of them you have to invest to see the flop, etc.

- tournament poker tends towards the formulaic, and one would be well-served to treat it like a business. for example, each time it's your turn you add up all the risks and rewards of the options available to you and generally make the most business-savvy decision available. every once in a while you want to play against the grain to remain unpredictable, but generally this is not necessary in a game like GOP. against humans, much more so. and needless to say, if you make decisions based on irritation over someone else's luck or behavior, you just make the game harder for yourself- yet it's human nature to get irritated, so the threat is always there.

- there are many times after receiving hand-after-hand of crappy cards and prudently folding that you will find yourself up against the wall, almost out of chips and seemingly betrayed for playing with patience. this is normal for GOP because in games against bad players you need to play extra tight, mostly not getting involved unless you have strong hands. again, this is because so many AI players limp in to too many pots and call too many raises with weak hands. when so many do this then usually one of them will get lucky and hit something good with the community cards, beating your cards which were superior at the beginning. so back to the point, when you are drained by having played tight all game, there will usually come a time when you have less-than-stellar cards but the situation will be right for taking the plunge with your remaining chips. for example, you're dealer, are dealt K-7, everyone has folded and only the blinds are left to act-- then you might think about going all in. there's a decent chance that your king will be high card among the three of you and those two players are already being forced to give up money in the form of blinds, so you have two different ways to win- one, by forcing them to fold to your raise and two, by your king outplaying their high cards if one / both decide to call.

- at this point i'm able to win money in tournaments around 85% of the time in GOP, which is why i decided to share some thoughts. that, and the fact that i learned some new stuff and got better recently. the top-level tourneys are indeed hard because you only start out with 13 BB's, but even so it leaves just enough room to break through if you have a good plan. poker seemed kind of dull my last go-round (about a year ago), but noticing small details and acting on them has made the game pretty fascinating and rewarding this trip.
 
more notes to myself about poker since this is a convenient log (heh)--

been trying poker superstars in a 'compare & contrast' kind of way lately. i must say, going from GOP to PS feels like a slap in the face. all the charm and gentle nature of the texas towns instantly evaporates given the face-to-face nature and aggressive betting of the pro-bots. but it's for the best- poker is a game of aggression, bluff and assassination, and one senses this much more in PS. gone are the crowd of lame 'limper-inners', replaced by a smaller crowd of 'if i decide to play, i'm going to put the heat on you' type of players. much more important becomes the skill of scanning the enemy for patterns and weaknesses, and much less useful becomes playing the tournament via a formula, which leads to quick and easy success in GOP.

poker pro phil gordon famously said "put all your money in with the best hand and that's the best you can do", but that approach can backfire in PS. once again, one needs to treat the situation as risk management and ask oneself- "i know i have better cards here, but how much can i afford to lose if i'm wrong or unlucky?" in the six preliminary rounds, one can afford to be wrong or unlucky at a relatively high percentage- in the follow-up rounds you must finish in the top two out of every four, so risk-management dictates that you play more cagily and wait for your chance.

still the same in this game is the need to be patient like lord toranaga (from shogun) and wait for your opportunity to strike, even if your stack is low and you are balancing on the brink of extinction. i'm still amazed at the number of times it pays to go all-in with a medium-good hand when your back is against the wall. it's like the poker gods are looking out for you, although there are other statistical explanations to be found.
 
General chit-chat
Help Users
You can interact with the ChatGPT Bot in any Chat Room and there is a dedicated room. The command is /ai followed by a space and then your ? or inquiry.
ie: /ai What is a EM Pinball Machine?
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    fabioaugusto4 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Dangerpin has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Teeball65 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Skimd17 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Brex82! has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    DrazeScythe has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Torntabittz has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    brotherboard has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    GARRY040 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    BL2K has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Chilldog has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    rodneyfitz has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    ace19120 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Tomasaco has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Greek_Jedi has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Beermano has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    02browns has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    nitram1864 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    aeponce has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    JEAN LUC has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    lorenzom has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    maxangelo19 has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Dragonslapper has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    royaljet has left the room.
  • Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs:
    Tyfox has left the room.
      Chat Bot Mibs Chat Bot Mibs: Tyfox has left the room.
      Back
      Top