Open Letter to the PostMan

[Phoenixx]

(NOTE: This post was actually written on tuesday, but i couldnt send the reply out then, because the forum repeatedly acted up on me,...)


Post from Tuesday:

O.K.,...since i got another topic-notification although i disabled notifications yesterday i looked at the new posts anyway. And it was good to do so, because i realized that there are a few things left to say in case i really stay away for good. Really important is only the last bit though,...the bit about my post is only of secondary relevance,...

...we need to recognize our own veiled belittling comments. If you look at it from this perspective, then even Cobracure's comment was to belittling or insult or to make fun of PD.

And therein lies exactly the difference. Because my intention was not to belittle anybody or to make fun of anybody or even to point out anybodies behaviour, the sole point of my post was to 'support' (repeat) the question of PcwaG, who asked whether loudmouths comments arent actually a reason for loudmouth to go on RO now too, and to which i then added my assumption regarding the staffs reaction to it.

In other words, loudmouths behaviour itself and per-se was only of secondary relevance at best, and mentioned at all only to make clear what im talking about. But the actual point of my post was not to point out loudmouths remarks for the sake of pointing them out, (which is what some apparently assume), the actual point of my post was solely to express what i believe the STAFF will do *BECAUSE* of these mentioned remarks. (Know what i mean now?)

But of course, if somebody WANTS to interpret something in a certain way because they couldnt care less for the real and actual meaning of it anyway, (i.e. Mr. Bias), then you have lost right from the start. Nothing you can do,...

...finger pointing posts...

That is a very good cue, because it comes a LOT closer as to what my post could be seen as in case one really failed to see the actual point of it. Needless to say that pointing the finger was still not the intention and still not the point of my post, but at least it comes significantly closer than the 'negative judgement' evaluation, which holds no water at all,...




But enough about that, what i really want to point out yet is something else. And that is that i never considered myself to be part of any 'Anti-Anybody' party. On the contrary, i always only considered myself to be simply a member of a community, and as such obliged to help this community out in every way possible to me. And when i say 'in every way possible to me' then i meant regardless of names or persons, because i believe that the 'mission' behind something is always bigger and more important than the involved individuals and their eventual personal discrepancies. Who cares for the who is who? Its irrelevant to me as long as the mission progresses. Because i believe that even if you dont like anybodies person or character doesnt that mean that there couldnt still be a productive and fruitful cooperation on a professional (read non-personal) basis anyway. IMO to reach a goal it is not important at all that people like each other on a personal basis, they just need to be able to work together on a professional basis, because that is all that is ultimately relevant for the accomplishment.

Now it is clear to me, of course, that a lot of people, not only here, just cannot keep these things apart, simply because they never learned to (and thus just cannot) control/suppress their anger/antipathy/etc in favour of a mission. So i do realize that i cannot expect everbody to just put their anger aside at will, but then thats not the point anyway. What i want to say is that i, myself, fortunately do not have a problem with this, which means that principally i hadnt had a problem at all to further give feedback/bugreports/flawreports even to loudmouth regardless of the personal crap, (and i did that numerous times already), because the 'mission', i.e. the authentic outcome of a repro, is in my opinion the only thing that really counts after all is said and done.

So to emphasize this once more, principally i am not, and have never been, 'Pro' or 'Anti' anybody in this community, because thats just not the way im thinking. Its not how im approaching this community. If anything at all then i would only have wished that it would have been possible that a professional and respectful basis could have been maintained for the sake of a productive cooperation in the name of the mission. Everything else is not really of relevance to me, because thats not why i wanted to be a member of this community.

Again: Im not 'Anti-Anybody',...just to have that on record,...

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Just felt that this was important yet to say when i saw this 'Anti-XYZ' term again, because i know that many people tend to assume a lot of things solely based on what they believe,...




P.S.: Yogi, i dont consider anybody here an enemy, and even if we once had an 'issue' because you missunderstood one of my comments doesnt that mean that this has automatically made you one. People are fighting everyday. It is sad, but to some degree it is even important for us to know ourselves and where we stand. It is a social necessity. I know this, although i wish it wasnt so, and you can believe me when i say that it takes a lot more than a few fights for me to consider anybody a real 'enemy'. As a child i was fighting with my sister practically constantly, and of course i still love her anyway. In other words to fight sometimes is O.K., important is only how you handle it afterwards,...


Be well alltogether,...

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Supplemental Note Added Today: Since loudmouth apparently couldnt help but showing up to bitch a little yet again, please somebody tell him that i believe that there are no people here who are interested in his usual facts-distortion-routine, and that his 'opinion' is probably not of interest to anybody either. You can also tell him that i believe it would help a lot if he just finally STFU and GTHOOH. Thank you,...

 

[bob]

Originally posted by Phoenixx1771
So my prediction: He knew the deal, yet he did it YET again, but he wont be getting a DA anyway. Because Bob was not yet on the list, and people not on the list can (still) be bitched about. (Not mentioned the fact that this was actually just another globalisation-type of comment, which doubtlessly addressed all of us in a veiled way.) Lets see what happens,...i would be glad to see that im 100% wrong this time,...

Your response:

That would be a negative judgement of PacDude

Phoenixx, it really is a negative response or negative opinion about PD, even if it is a fact.

You need to ignore PD, unfortunately, you "have" to ignore PD according to the new PD rule.

I see PD as another Wrenchien, the only thing is PD's tables are a little better and he is a helluva lot ruder than Wrenchien, but they both post or did post their whole freakin life at VPF. VPF is/was their blog, yes, it's sad as hell, but maybe someday they'll meet and Wrenchien can move in with PD and they can discuss power poles and religion until death do they part.

Now I realise that the last paragraph may appear as an insult to PD, more so to Wrenchien, but it is my opinion and I believe it to be so and that is a fact.

 

[yogiholzer]

P.S.: Yogi, i dont consider anybody here an enemy, and even if we once had an 'issue' because you missunderstood one of my comments doesnt that mean that this has automatically made you one.
[/i]

What did I say in a previous post?

It was this: "Ok, friend is not what I exactly feel about our online contact, but I accept and respect you. However, I wish you the same you wish people like me and that should be what you wrote. So good luck and be well in whatever you do next!"

What's wrong about that? You don't need to interpret 'not friend' automatically into the opposite. I don't feel as an enemy of you nor I see you as enemy! I thought we resolved that some time ago. But you aren't automatically a friend if you are not an enemy!

Just take it as it is and understand 'So good luck and be well in whatever you do next!" exactly as it was written, because I mean it exactly that way independent from if you leave or stay!

... because you missunderstood one of my comments ...
[/i]

I really thought the issue was long-forgotten, but as you can't omit that here, I have to say ... , argh, stuff it!

Just take my wishes as I wrote!

 

[Phoenixx]

Phoenixx, it really is a negative response or negative opinion about PD, even if it is a fact.

O.K.,...perhaps it is really not possible then to translate the 'core' of some things properly from german to english, because apparently there are sometimes significant linguistic differences in the way how certain things are ultimately perceived, and that apparently relatively regardless of how you are going to word it. Of course i can always only translate the words as good as i can and hope that the other side will perceive everything as intended, but apparently thats not always possible and not always the case, so if these words do really lead you english speaking folks to the definite conclusion that it was a negative judgement then i probably have to take your word for it, and thus i had probably better not said anything at all to avoid such a possible misinterpretation in the 1st place. My mistake,...



However,...thats all long gone history and irrelevant now anyway,...what i would like to know now is only how to get rid of these notifications, because as long as i dont get some i dont feel tempted to look for any new posts either. I already disabled them, but they keep coming anyway,...very odd,...do i have to terminate my account altogether to stop them?

What's wrong about that?

Gar nix,...wahrscheinlich hast Du das nur wieder falsch verstanden.

In einem Wort; Du sagtest Du glaubst nicht dass ich Dich als Freund sehen würde, das tu ich aber, denn ich sehe jeden der nicht mein Feind ist als Freund, und das war was ich damit meinte.

Bis dann,...

 

[yogiholzer]

RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

Sure, it's such clear that I become blamed to not understand anything as always!!! Read again to comprehend that I didn't say that!!!

I'm sorry, but it seems to be needless to make further attempts to explain.

'Good luck and be well in whatever you do next!' Isn't that just clear enough?

 

[PacDude]

RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

Spin Bob said,

I see PD as another Wrenchien, the only thing is PD's tables are a little better and he is a helluva lot ruder than Wrenchien, but they both post or did post their whole freakin life at VPF.

Gee Bob, I think you've been around VPF as long as I have or very close to it (a whopping 'whole freakin (lifetime)' of 6 years now) and so if that makes me Wrenchien, does that make you another Pacdude only with fewer tables? LOL. Your logic reminds me more of Mitchell, actually. :D


Yes, Phoenixx you've been real professional all these years. I particularly like the parts where you threatened to 'destroy' me. You're such a class act....

 

[bob]

RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

idiot... I didn't mean you've been posting your whole lifetime, I meant you've told us every freakin' detail of your life.

You, like Wrenchien, post a freakin diary of your life.

Fewer tables? I think I have made about the same amount of tables as you.... I just don't brag about the number all of the time. I have made at least one of almost every category of table, in other words, I like to try something different every once in awhile....

 

[StevOz]

RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

And you're still married?

Got a winner today 775 dollar win on a 3 dollar trifecta bet, got to like that. :)

 

[PacDude]

Re: RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

idiot... I didn't mean you've been posting your whole lifetime, I meant you've told us every freakin' detail of your life.

Well Bob, as long as you are going to continue to act like a 3rd grader, I don't really have much to say to you.

You, like Wrenchien, post a freakin diary of your life.

You don't know a fraction of my life.

Fewer tables? I think I have made about the same amount of tables as you.... I just don't brag about the number all of the time. I have made at least one of almost every category of table, in other words, I like to try something different every once in awhile....

Good for you.

 

[Shockman]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

You don't know a fraction of my life.

True. The rest, we do.

 

[PacDude]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

More like you think you do.

 

[Phoenixx]

Re: RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

Yes, Phoenixx you've been real professional all these years. You're such a class act....

You know Gordon, what puzzles me to no end is that you, as somebody who can write for hours about religion and the problems of humanity, always prefer to drag a fight across endless amounts of time rather than ever making any attempt to solve the problem instead. So far i always only saw you keep fighting, but i never saw you ever taking the initiative in order to CLEAR a situation, you know, like saying "Come on, lets talk about it and get the problem out of the world".

How comes?


And more importantly, doesnt such behaviour actually *massively* interfere with your own view of the 'optimal' world?

For instance, you seem to know very well that one of the biggest problems in the world, which leads to wars again and again, is the unfortunately widespread inability to accept differences regarding religions, opinions and general views of all kinds of things in the world. Yet you are never letting a topic go yourself as long as anybody still shows a remote sign of something like an individual, (from your own differing), opinion.

How comes?

You also seem to know that another of the biggest problems in the world is the tendency to go to war over these differences. You keep saying going to war is bad and that the world and humanity has never gained anything from it and that the world was so much better off if everyone would finally understand that war CANNOT lead to anything good. Yet you are always the first to pull the gun yourself when anything doesnt go your way, and that often even for rather marginal reasons.

How comes?

You also keep saying that many of the problems in this world could be avoided (or at least later cleared) if people would talk to each other. Yet you never made any attempt yourself to talk about a problem in order to (re-)establish a friendly basis.

How comes?


This is really confusing me, because obviously there is some kind of discrepancy between what you keep repeating in posts and what you ultimately do. Do you have a plausible explanation for that?

 

[yogiholzer]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Open Letter to the PostMan

Removed, because unwanted!

 

[Phoenixx]

This is what i really, REALLY hate about this community,...you post something, ten people cant help but telling you how it is 'coming across', and you end up explaining twentyfive times what it was that you said.

But not this time.

I wrote what i wrote and it means what it means! The black symbols are the letters! Put them together from left to right and see what they say! THAT, and only THAT, is their meaning!

 

[yogiholzer]

Ok, you don't want to comprehend and deny any considerations! It was meant for help/understanding. However, I'll try to remove my previous post and let it go! Sorry!

Edit: Done!

 

[destruk]

I think there should be more wars - it helps limit the population density and helps the environment. Fewer people is a good answer.

 

[StevOz]

.........or let nature takes it course.

 

[PacDude]

How comes? Do you REALLY want to know or are you just playing flame bait games, Phoenixx?

I'll tell you anyway. You can't make any kind of 'peace initiative' with someone that refuses to even recognize even the SLIGHTEST infraction in their own behavior. I've admitted numerous times my own tendency to flame people that I feel are already flaming me or disrespecting me in some fashion. I've admitted my short temper and other related faults and given my POV of the whole situation numerous times.

But YOU, Phoenixx, you are another matter. You have never done wrong. You have never flamed anyone, only 'reacted' with 'good reason'. You are always pointing the finger at everyone but yourself no matter what it is we're talking about or what ANYONE ELSE is talking about either. The recent hodog IQ comment was a great example of the latter. Anyone that doesn't agree with the opinion you gave is an IDIOT in your eyes. So of course, it stands to follow that during all our discussions, arguments and flame wars, I'm the idiot in your eyes (I like the white light example just because it's so subjective whereas you can't even admit THAT much-- that there is a subjective element to it. It's all cut and dried, black & white with you and you're always white and everyone else is always black so-to-speak.

I can't recall ONE single time since you arrived at VPF where you have ever conceded a single thing that you didn't somehow agree with on some level, if even only a little. If push REALLY comes to shove (where EVERYONE is ganging up on your comments) you'll just blame it on the language thing instead.

The staff at VPF didn't do what they said they would in your eyes. They unjustly put you on read only and they're scum and idiots for doing so and any other aspect to it all is, of course, MY fault somehow like my comment about Bob and asking him to be added to the list somehow FORCED you to comment, paint me in a derogatory manner and question the staff's intelligence and prejudge their actions before they even have a chance to react at all.

Now you tell ME why in the WORLD would I be asking myself how can we resolve this or get around it, etc., when I'm LITERALLY talking to a brick wall that always stands his ground come wolf or high water? That's not a discussion. That's not an argument even. It's a flame war waiting to happen because you don't respect anyone else's opinion, no matter whom they are or what they say IF it disagrees fundamentally with your own belief on the matter and from where I'm standing that statement is a scientific truth because I've see absolutely NO evidence to EVER indicate otherwise.

You're all buddy buddy until the day the conversation turns to a subject where the person you're talking to has a fundamentally different view or take on something than your own at which point the shit is BOUND to hit the fan because in your heart you believe anyone that disagrees with you is an IDIOT.

Now I've been accused of talking in condescending manners myself and I don't usually see it either, so maybe there is some pot/kettle involved here as well, but I know damn well I don't label everyone 4-year olds with IQs of meat products simply because they think differently about author rights (again, just using the recent example).

How can there be ANY discussion on the subject if you've already made up YOUR mind before you even hit the POST NEW THREAD button? You come across then as only trying to drive your opinion into other people's heads and when they reply they don't share your view, you label them stupid and why oh WHY oh WHY can't they see it?

LOL. It IS funny because it's downright LUDICROUS for you to expect everyone to agree with you on the subject or ANY subject in life. I may argue my point to death (which might give them that impression, though I suppose), but I surely don't tell people they have the equivalent intelligence of a Big Mac for arguing THEIR view. So before you tell me to look in the mirror, realize the difference.

I've VERY opinionated. But that doesn't mean I think other people shouldn't have their own opinions. It simply means I like to argue my own point-of-view. I expect good arguments in return if someone wants to change my point-of-view, not insults to my intelligence.

Now MAYBE just MAYBE if you could have stepped up to the plate back when I admitted my part of the problem at VPF and admitted your own part in it, we could have gotten past it and agreed to move on. But I can't keep trying to move on when you're putting your hand out on the right side and have your fingers crossed behind your back on the left side at the same time. It's pointless.

You'll surely no doubt see it once again from the point of view of how stupid I am and what a liar I am and how I'm misrepresenting you an oh gee, I do indeed admit I was wrong before (in an accidentally pushed the wrong key and spelled a word wrong once or twice last year kind of way), but it all comes across to me as a big load of horse manure.

I *know* I've gotten my hands dirty in the process of all this. Why don't you know it, eh?

 

[Phoenixx]

No, im not playing flamebaitgames, i really wanted to know.

And i still do, because the questions are still not really answered.

The thing is, i didnt want to know what you think about me, (i think i already know that and we can talk about that later if you wish), what i wanted to know now was only how it can be that there is such an obvious discrepancy between what you keep saying in your postings and your de-facto actions.

I think this is a valid question,...and im just interested to know if you have a plausible explanation for that,...



Perhaps im going to address a few of your points tomorrow, in the meantime im leaving the stage to you,...

 

[PacDude]

The question is extremely well answered. You simply don't want to see it because it means that you have to honestly look in the mirror. All you see is that *I* 'preach' tolerance yet I ALSO have a temper and a very short capacity for dealing with people that want to play "debate" instead of actually DISCUSS topics.

I was once in a speech/debate class and it was literally our JOBS to *argue* our POV (which was GIVEN to us; we didn't have to even personally AGREE with that POV; it was our ASSIGNMENT to research that POV and find evidence to SUPPORT it and then try to convince the 'audience' to side with us).

Note there how the goal is NOT to convince the other debate team we are right or even to convince ourselves (because we may personally agree with the other team). Rather the goal is to "WIN" the debate by defeating the other team's argument and gaining more votes for our argument on the case. It's almost like how high-paid lawyers operate. Their goal isn't to find justice or the truth but to WIN! (which means MORE $$$).

Now my professor was very impressed with my debating abilities and wanted me to join the college debate team, but I refused because I couldn't STAND the fact that it was all BS. I didn't get to argue from the heart, but rather I was being 'paid' (in a manner of speaking) to just "WIN" arguments! Now I think you or anyone else can tell I *LIKE* to argue! I like to debate! But I don't like DEBATING when the only GOAL is to 'win' and I especially hate debating when I don't believe in what I'm arguing for (which was the primary reason I stayed away from the debate team; I'd have to argue for things I didn't believe in just to 'win').

Phoenixx, whenever we have ANY kind of 'discussion' it feels more like those days in debate class where the only goal seems to be to 'win' the argument instead of actually discussing the subject at hand because I damn well KNOW when I'm making good points, etc. and it's obvious it doesn't matter because someone like yourself would NEVER recognize those arguments because it means I've got a point and I CAN'T have a point if it means even one IOTA of your own argument might be invalid.


Ask yourself why we couldn't discuss the REASONS 'white lights' look the way they do on various machines and points-of-view, but INSTEAD it turned into "it's a FACT your lights are STARK WHITE" blah blah blah and "real lights aren't THIS color" blah blah blah. You leave ZERO room for ANY OTHER POV other than your own. And it's ALWAYS been that way with you.

I can't 'discuss' ANYTHING with you because you always have to be right. You always have to 'win' the argument even when there's not supposed to be anything to win (discussion should be about learning new things and seeing other people's views of the world, not playing "You're STUPID because you don't see what I see" types of games.

And I'm afraid until YOU learn that the whole world isn't "STUPID" just because they see some things differently than you do, you will ALWAYS end up in those kinds of arguments.

And I know it's not just me because that hot dog/IQ comment had NOTHING to do with me, but EVERYTHING to do with your view of EVERYONE ELSE and to me, it's just an example of typical Phoenixx.

 

[PacDude]

It's ALSO true that I'm easily suckered into those kinds of arguments because I always assume the person saying whatever it is they're saying is being honest with their opinions, etc. and so I think, let's try and sort this out. But of course, that's NOT always the case. Like on the debate team, SOME people will say something they don't believe in or couldn't care less about ONLY to draw me into an argument so they can laugh at my 5 page refutations or whatever. It's dishonest and I call it trolling and flame baiting, but it's also true it happens to me a LOT.

 

[Cobracure]

Hmmm do I want to play or not that is the question.....

Any of you gentlemen object?

 

[bob]

Hmmm do I want to play or not that is the question.....

Any of you gentlemen object?

Let me check the list...

Leo Wanker
Cobracure
Bob
Phoenixx
AJ
Black
Apocalypse
Jive
Kinsey
JonPurpleHaze
Tiltjlp
Cowboy
Paratech
MrFixx
BJ
Ike
Posty
Stevoz
Hakyoku Seiken
KC
Catalyst
Rob046
Shockman
Gaston
Sellenoff

Yep, you can play...

 

[Phoenixx]

No 'playing' right now please.

I want to 'confront' PD with a few certain points to hear about his thoughts on them, and i want to do that in a reasonable manner, means without any insults, flames or emotions, just by talking about facts. So please hold back for a while, (do me that favour), at least until im out of here. Thanks.



(P.S.: I cant deal with this right now because there are several points to quote/address and for that i need to have enough time first. (And be in the mood too.) If not during the week then i will most likely be back at the weekend,...)

 

[Cobracure]

I've got to wait a few days for you to be "in the mood" ?

Hmmm well maybe.